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Old February 24th, 2011, 12:37 PM   #1681
keber
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Still, in my opinion there is not enough rebar in concrete after looking at other picture from the article. Ok for overloading, but in modern construction bridges must not fail even when they are completely full of fully loaded trucks (bumper-to-bumper).
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Old February 24th, 2011, 05:22 PM   #1682
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By the end of the 12th Five-Year-Plan period (2011-2015), Li believed China could overtake the United States in terms of freeway developments and rank the first on earth in this regard.
Now 2011 and beyond China will going to overtake any others world countries in every thing, Biggest in everything. Now already no. 1 in many thing..
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Old February 24th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #1683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Still, in my opinion there is not enough rebar in concrete after looking at other picture from the article. Ok for overloading, but in modern construction bridges must not fail even when they are completely full of fully loaded trucks (bumper-to-bumper).
I think if it was due to rebar issue, the collapsed part would have shattered. The whole accident scene would have been totally different. In fact the elevated ramp was tipped over due to unbalance. One of the trucks broke down and stopped on the left lane of the ramp, and the other trucks were trying to over pass it on the right side of the ramp.

completely full of fully loaded trucks (bumper-to-bumper) is not comparable to a few seriously over-loaded trucks, since in latter case pressure is not evenly distributed and is over the limit the ramp can handle. Trucks with goods weighing 55 tons or more are forbidden to use this ramp, and apparently these trucks(especially the coal trucks) here are way over this limit.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #1684
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those trucks should be prevented from running on the roads, seriously, they are literally the 'road killers' as they are destroying the paved roads.
When I showed the pictures to a collegue of mine with Chinese roots, he mentioned there is massive fraud in China between contractors and government supervisors (bribing), with the result that not enough concrete reinforcement steel is being put into structures. As a result structures will collapse much earlier than expected. The coal trucks were just the straw that broke the camel's back after some years of carrying loads the structure simply couldn't cope with.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 11:45 PM   #1685
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When I showed the pictures to a collegue of mine with Chinese roots, he mentioned there is massive fraud in China between contractors and government supervisors (bribing), with the result that not enough concrete reinforcement steel is being put into structures. As a result structures will collapse much earlier than expected. The coal trucks were just the straw that broke the camel's back after some years of carrying loads the structure simply couldn't cope with.
frankly, if you or your colleague have any idea how serious the overloading problem is in China, you would have realized what you have said is inaccurate.
Ask anyone in the Chinese transportation/logistics business, then you'll have a basic idea of the appalling situation.

There are also many surveys done to study this problem. A Class II highway with a designed lifetime of 15 years can only last for three years because of overloading. In one study an expressway with a designed lifetime of 15 years only lasted for 1.5 years and it had to be completely repaired, because almost every truck using it had loaded at least twice the goods of the limit. And it is not like you only have trucks like that once in a while, it is a heavily used expressway to transport goods, the impact cannot be neglected. There is no way a construction quality issue can reduce the road's lifetime by 90%.

construction quality issues exist, but they are far from the main cause. As for the accident you quoted, final report is not available yet, but preliminary investigation already showed that overloading is probably the cause.
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Last edited by fragel; February 25th, 2011 at 12:07 AM.
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Old February 25th, 2011, 02:43 AM   #1686
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Both of you are right. Shoddy construction practices, as a result of an infinitely corrupt system/poor construction practices, and the gross overloading of commercial vehicles, contribute to these kind of incidents. All that matters, is the bottom line. To Hell with everything else. At any cost.
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Old February 25th, 2011, 06:00 AM   #1687
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Is the constuction practice in China 'infinitely corrupt' ? I think this is higly debatable and to claim so is based on biased reasoning. Perhaps, in the past during the 80 and early nineties the structures produced were not good enough. But China is no more different than most countries when it comes to construction standard.

Given the scale of constructions in China (which is truly huge, as China produced almost half the worlds cement / concrete production), the number of failures have been very small. There will be bound to be failures, and even then these could be due to other factors due to design failure, overloading etc, rather than poor or faulty workmanship, corrupt practice during construction.

There is no country that have no have construction failures, and just pointing fingers at China is not really a fair way, unless it an be backed by convincing statistics.
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Old February 25th, 2011, 06:22 AM   #1688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Still, in my opinion there is not enough rebar in concrete after looking at other picture from the article. Ok for overloading, but in modern construction bridges must not fail even when they are completely full of fully loaded trucks (bumper-to-bumper).
Nonsense. One can't really say whether there should be enough rebar or not from the picture. Most bridge girders are post tensioned anyway, and longitudinal rebar requirements are minimal.

All bridges have load limits. There are regulations on the truck loads and the number of axles. Disaster can happen when load limits are ignored.
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Old February 27th, 2011, 01:46 PM   #1689
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View on Beijing (right) and Tianjin (left) from ISS:
Awesome !!! the two pearls in Northern China !!!
you can see actually Tianjin just slighlty smaller than Beijing.
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Old February 27th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #1690
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Nonsense. One can't really say whether there should be enough rebar or not from the picture. Most bridge girders are post tensioned anyway, and longitudinal rebar requirements are minimal.
I know how much rebar they put into highway bridges around here and how much I see it on the picture. Difference is obvious.

Also from above pictures it seems that this bridge was not pretensioned (pre-, not post-) and cocnrete reinforcement is from normal rebars only.

Quote:
I think if it was due to rebar issue, the collapsed part would have shattered.
Wrong. I witnessed some demolitions of old highway bridges with old insufficient rebar and none shattered. And in their lifetime they could still support exceptional transports like 500+ tons heavy goods. Newer bridges with pretension and monolithic construction technique are even stronger.
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Old February 27th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #1691
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Can anyone post find and post different angles of that collapsed bridge? I wanna see something. That pic doesn't tell the whole story.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 04:22 AM   #1692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
I know how much rebar they put into highway bridges around here and how much I see it on the picture. Difference is obvious.

Also from above pictures it seems that this bridge was not pretensioned (pre-, not post-) and cocnrete reinforcement is from normal rebars only.


Wrong. I witnessed some demolitions of old highway bridges with old insufficient rebar and none shattered. And in their lifetime they could still support exceptional transports like 500+ tons heavy goods. Newer bridges with pretension and monolithic construction technique are even stronger.
If you have a picture please show them, and we can discuss the merit of your claim.

Anyway, if your claim is correct, one would expect to see more systemic failures or collapse. However, that has not been the case. In this particular case, a Chinese poster has already mentioned overloading a the prime suspect.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 05:10 AM   #1693
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Seems this accident really becomes the hot topic in this thread.

The following overloading information comes from the investigation.

http://roll.sohu.com/20110225/n303595739.shtml

Quote:
据悉,上虞相关部门在公证处参与下,对侧翻车辆、所载货物进行了称重。结果显示:车牌为“皖D”的运石煤车辆,车身自重29.4吨,所载石煤总质量 96.2吨,超载65.9吨,超载217.5%;“豫P”运石煤车辆自重30.58吨,所载石煤总质量93.86吨,超载60.86吨,超载 184.4%;“皖J”运硫磺车辆自重25.4吨,硫磺总质量85.33吨,超载55.33吨,超载184.4%;“豫B”运棉籽车辆自重9.86吨,所载棉籽18.66吨,超载1.73吨,超载10.2%。

first column is the truck weight, second column is the total weight of the loaded goods, third column is the weight of the overloaded goods and the last column is the overloading proportion
Code:
truck1:  9.86 18.66  1.73  10.2%
truck2: 29.4  96.2  65.9  217.5%
truck3: 30.58 93.86 60.86 184.4%
truck4: 25.4  85.33 55.33 184.4%

Truck 1 broke down and stopped in the left lane; it is really light compared to the other trucks. Truck 2, 3 and 4 tried to pass truck 1 on the right side of the ramp at the same time.

Basically, these three trucks were supposed to load up to about 30 tons, while in reality they loaded about 3 times of the limit(about 90 tons), overloading by 184.4%-217.5%. Also these trucks weigh over 110 tons in total each(goods+truck weight), more than twice the designed limit (55 tons).

Like I mentioned earlier, the investigation is still ongoing. For anyone who is interested in this case, I'd say we should just wait for the final result rather than judge the situation by a few images. For one thing, none of us was able to determine how much the trucks overloaded by just studying the pictures.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 09:46 AM   #1694
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Unbalance. Sounds a bit like the I-35W bridge fiasco in Minneapolis a couple of years ago.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 05:47 PM   #1695
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Then it was shoddy construction practices. Had that bridge been PROPERLY built, it should have EASILY been able to take the weight of those trucks. This is what happens when you build something as cheaply as possible. But hey, it's China. People don't matter. Money does. Cutting corners to save as much money as possible, is all that matters.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 06:38 PM   #1696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewys View Post
If you have a picture please show them, and we can discuss the merit of your claim.
I've studied pictures from this link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ft-ground.html

then adding my observations and experience as civil engineer.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #1697
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I've studied pictures from this link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ft-ground.html

then adding my observations and experience as civil engineer.
There's virtually NO rebar whatsoever in there!!! It's just solid concrete, which confirms a lot of people's suspicions. No freaking wonder the bridge failed. While I'm not a civil engineer like Keber, I know enough about working with concrete and that there should have been a LOT more rebar in there.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 10:58 PM   #1698
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This is what happens when you build something as cheaply as possible. But hey, it's China. People don't matter. Money does. Cutting corners to save as much money as possible, is all that matters.
Maybe it would be better to not build any expressways at all unless they can't build them properly, and in the meantime allow people to die in head-on collisions on 2-laned undivided highways?
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Old March 1st, 2011, 12:08 AM   #1699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf View Post
There's virtually NO rebar whatsoever in there!!! It's just solid concrete, which confirms a lot of people's suspicions. No freaking wonder the bridge failed. While I'm not a civil engineer like Keber, I know enough about working with concrete and that there should have been a LOT more rebar in there.
If you have no idea about civil engineering then you shouldn't jump to conclusion so quickly. It's very clear that the bridge's surface is intact at the time of the collapse, indicating the problem occurred at where the column is joined with the surface, and not revealed in any of the pictures. Unbalanced load is probably a primary suspect, not the rebar.

According to the published report there are close to 300t of load on one side of the bridge, this shouldn't be a problem for most bridges here in the States, but not all bridges, especially ramps, in China are designed with such high grade of load tolerance.
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Old March 1st, 2011, 12:10 AM   #1700
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If they keep running 90 tonne trucks with 4 or 5 axles on Chinese expressways all of them will have completely destroyed pavement in 10 years time.

In Europe, most roads are designed to handle up to 11.5 tonnes axle load. If you run trucks with over 90 tonnes you need 8 or 9 axles, not 5.
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