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Old August 10th, 2005, 07:53 AM   #221
ssiguy2
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The Coquitlam Line is a done deal, it will be built.
I do not agree, however, that densification will take place along Cambie like the Expo/Mill Lines.
Both those lines used either rail corridors or down a main road that was not residential but rather industrial or commercial.
That is NOT the case with RAV.
Also the city will be fighting west siders to gety higher density down Cambie....thats a big deal.
The NPA, til recently, has always held the grasp in Vancouver Cityhall and would not offend there westside core constituents.
Everyone here is also forgetting that Cambie is not only a "Heritage" road but also a "ceremonial" route. This makes high rises near impossible.
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Old August 10th, 2005, 07:54 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
I see you live in creme de la creme area as well, assuming you are not an alter ego of the 12 year old creme de la creme troll. As far as asthetics is concerned, if the elevated system saves hundreds of millions of dollars that can be used to expand rapid transit elsewhere in the Lower Mainland and the only one to suffer are creme de la creme NIMBYs who don't want to see a train high above their homes, then all the better!
do u actually think its the creme de la creme that live along cambie?
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Old August 10th, 2005, 08:52 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eduardo89
do u actually think its the creme de la creme that live along cambie?
oh i could try to tell him that i'm a college student living in a 500-a-month apartment near 14th and cambie but that would just blow his world upside down.

after all - everybody that lives in point grey, kitsilano, fairview, and pretty much ANYWHERE in the city of vancouver IS creme-de-la-creme.
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Old August 10th, 2005, 08:53 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
I do not agree, however, that densification will take place along Cambie like the Expo/Mill Lines.
Both those lines used either rail corridors or down a main road that was not residential but rather industrial or commercial.
That is NOT the case with RAV.
Also the city will be fighting west siders to gety higher density down Cambie....thats a big deal.
The NPA, til recently, has always held the grasp in Vancouver Cityhall and would not offend there westside core constituents.
Everyone here is also forgetting that Cambie is not only a "Heritage" road but also a "ceremonial" route. This makes high rises near impossible.
well it certainly won't be as easy or as obvious but i think a certain amount of densification will still happen. It's bound to. It's about money. The west siders are rich, but developers with dollar signs in their eyes at the prospect of building a 20story apartment building near a skytrain station are RICHER.

There will be more pressure to increase the density than there will be to keep it where it is.
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Old August 10th, 2005, 11:39 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npinguy
oh i could try to tell him that i'm a college student living in a 500-a-month apartment near 14th and cambie but that would just blow his world upside down.

after all - everybody that lives in point grey, kitsilano, fairview, and pretty much ANYWHERE in the city of vancouver IS creme-de-la-creme.
most people who live in kits/point grey like from 3rd-broadway between collingwood and bayswater arent exactly the creme de la creme. people who live in ubc and shaugnessy are the creme de la creme.

i dont get why all these guys cant understand that people living on cambie are NOT the creme de la creme and theres no way vancouver would put LRT down cambie cuz it would just defeat the purpose of rav. LRT is jsut too slow. it may work for calgary but that doesnt mean its gonna work here in vancouver....
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Old August 12th, 2005, 06:13 AM   #226
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^ exactly. and there was this link, i think it was from the NPA, that said Cambie LRT would take 35-40 minutes as suppose to elevated/underground RAV at 25 minutes.

it's the same thing for the Coquitlam Line too. With SkyTrain, it'll take just 13 minutes. With LRT, it's a whopping 23-24 minutes! We might as well have rapid bus or the B-Line instead......24 mins is unacceptable, it's way too long.
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Old August 12th, 2005, 09:11 AM   #227
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^ LRT is slow? You people praise Skytrain as fast even though Skytrain is really an LRT that happens to be elevated! Besides, even ground based LRT can be just as fast or even faster as long as it has priority over motor vehicles. But of course, in Vancouver, car is always the king! Talk about contradicting oneself! And get your facts straight! The Translink website using more current data specifically states the Coquitlam LRT travels 20 minutes! Frankly, I think the reason for the huge difference has more to do with so many stops as compared to a Skytrain Line in Coquitlam.

npinguy, just admit it, you make things up, especially your forecasts and the fact that you claim you have evidence in post#163 but cannot produce it shows your lack of credibility. The fact of the matter is the ridership for RAV is grossly over optomistic and both the Canadian Federal studies that was released in 2004 and I would be surprised if other studies prove it is so. And at $100 million per km just to appease the creme de la creme, geeze! RAV

10x more important that Coquitlam Line? Can you show me how you came up with that number with emperical data or did you just made that up as well? Frankly, the GVRD planners have more credibility than you and for some reason, they believe Coquitlam Line is a much more regional priority. It is only because of Gordon Campbell and his cronies that put that project into the backburner why RAV jumped the que (and subsequently, Translink directors rightfully fought back when RAV was put into a vote, hence why the moved up but yet to be finalized construction timeline). I still think it won't be built simply because of past track record and the fact that Greater Vancouver's overall transit expansion and GVRD LRSP goals never ever materialized because of politics. Isn't there a municipal election coming up?

Frankly, Translink as a regional agency should only put basic money to build bare bones rapid transit lines that would be able to achieve the goals of the essential elements of a project. If a municipality wants an upgrade, they should pay for it! Since it is solely the city of Vancouver that wants tunneling even though an elevated system can achieve the same 25 minute requirement of the airport, that city and their resident taxpayers alone should bear the additional costs so the rest of the savings can be past throughout the rest of the region so they too can have their own rapid transit systems.

Last edited by [email protected]; August 12th, 2005 at 09:19 AM.
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Old August 12th, 2005, 05:54 PM   #228
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Maybe you should take the argument to the Vancouver Transit 2.0 thread.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 10:05 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
^ LRT is slow? You people praise Skytrain as fast even though Skytrain is really an LRT that happens to be elevated! Besides, even ground based LRT can be just as fast or even faster as long as it has priority over motor vehicles. But of course, in Vancouver, car is always the king! Talk about contradicting oneself! And get your facts straight! The Translink website using more current data specifically states the Coquitlam LRT travels 20 minutes! Frankly, I think the reason for the huge difference has more to do with so many stops as compared to a Skytrain Line in Coquitlam.
Skytrain frequently travels at over 90kph on many stretches. You're gonna try to tell me that LRT/streetcar in your avatar can get up to 90kph on the city streets?

YES, TECHNICALLY, Skytrain is "Light-rail-transit". But that only affects it's train mass/length, and therefore the capacity, NOT it's efficiency. It is not even in teh same stratosphere compared to most LRTs around the world.

Quote:
npinguy, just admit it, you make things up, especially your forecasts and the fact that you claim you have evidence in post#163 but cannot produce it shows your lack of credibility.
what do i make up? My forecasts are based on logical conclusions given what i know about the city I live in. YOU DON'T LIVE HERE. You know NOTHING. And yet YOU seem to be convinced that YOUR forecasts are right, and mine are wrong. FALSE. You know less than nothing.

Post 163 has nothing to do with you and stop bringing it up. I provided the evidnece, KGB (and you, tho it has nothign to do with you) chose to ignore it.

MY lack of credibility? YOu are the one that has repeatedly stated blatantly wrong facts (or rather what you tried to PASS OFF as facts) about the lack of bus coverage to various industrial parks and i have shown you to be completely full of cow-dung.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is the ridership for RAV is grossly over optomistic and both the Canadian Federal studies that was released in 2004 and I would be surprised if other studies prove it is so. And at $100 million per km just to appease the creme de la creme, geeze!
More bullcrap about the creme de la creme. For god's sakes not everybody that lives in point grey, kits, and fairview are creme de la creme. It's just another aspect showing how little you know. There is a TON of low-income families, and college students that will benefit from the line.

YES - a FEW Nimbys forced the line underground. SO WHAT? The line will still benefit us, and the federal government is paying for it.

You repeat over and over that ridership for the RAV is grossly over-optimistic. WHAT EXACTLY does this 2004 canadian federal study say? I'm sorry but I don't believe your references given the amount of things you've made up in the past.


Quote:
RAV 10x more important that Coquitlam Line? Can you show me how you came up with that number with emperical data or did you just made that up as well? Frankly, the GVRD planners have more credibility than you and for some reason, they believe Coquitlam Line is a much more regional priority. It is only because of Gordon Campbell and his cronies that put that project into the backburner why RAV jumped the que (and subsequently, Translink directors rightfully fought back when RAV was put into a vote, hence why the moved up but yet to be finalized construction timeline).
Let's see, what's more important....

Coquitlam/Port Coquitlam residents getting rapid access to downtown...
or
Richmond residents and Airport passengers getting rapid access to downtown.


I'll spare you the stuff about how this is necessary for the olympics, and how clogged granville street is, and how the 98 b-line is always running at capacity because I'm sure you already know all this (even if you ignore it).

How'bout this. I have friends that work at the airport. They tell me about passangers that have layovers for several hours at the airport. They hang aruond the terminal because they don't want to pay for a cab or take the bus to downtown. If there was a rapid transit line that would get them to downtown in 25 mins - guess what. They'd go to downtown and spend money. It's just yet another positive contribution of the line.

If you still don't understand that that makes it more important than the coquitlam LRT (and if you still don't understand that "10x more important" was just an expression and not the result of a formula to calculate HOW much more important), well you're just.........

Quote:
I still think it won't be built simply because of past track record and the fact that Greater Vancouver's overall transit expansion and GVRD LRSP goals never ever materialized because of politics. Isn't there a municipal election coming up?
care to put some money down on this?

Quote:
Frankly, Translink as a regional agency should only put basic money to build bare bones rapid transit lines that would be able to achieve the goals of the essential elements of a project. If a municipality wants an upgrade, they should pay for it! Since it is solely the city of Vancouver that wants tunneling even though an elevated system can achieve the same 25 minute requirement of the airport, that city and their resident taxpayers alone should bear the additional costs so the rest of the savings can be past throughout the rest of the region so they too can have their own rapid transit systems.
WOW you actually said a reasonable thing for once. Well kind of. Because it's not the other municipality's taxpayers that are paying the extra cost to tunnel. The federal government is.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 08:48 PM   #230
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GETTING BACK ON TOPIC.

This isn't gloating, but it is from a Toronto perspective. I wouldn't say I agree with the article's headline. Although it does accurately represent the positives of Vancouver's transit, it doesn't REALLY say a lot about what it is that Vancouver does so much better than Toronto. It just says what it does good.

Either way - discuss.

Quote:
Vancouver's TransLink has lessons for TTC
What can Toronto learn from Vancouver's transit system? I recently visited Canada's third largest city and toured its buses, ferries and SkyTrain rail system. SkyTrain uses the same technology as the Scarborough Rapid Transit line, but covers a much larger area than the SRT.

Wedged between water, mountains and the U.S. border, the narrow delta of the Fraser River is home to around two million people. Most live in cities served by TransLink, a regional transportation authority that oversees both transit and the road system.

TransLink administers one regional commuter rail line, a frequent ferry service called SeaBus, the SkyTrain network with its two existing lines, as well as buses powered both by electricity and other fuels. Despite the high cost of extending transit service into low density suburbs, surface routes in the older parts of the city did not seem to be suffering — I found them to be quite frequent.

To augment regular local buses, two major express routes cut across the older city, one north-south and the other east-west. These "B-Lines" offer faster service, stopping only at certain intersections.

Greater Vancouver has a zone fare system, and a rush hour trip can add up when heading into the suburbs or taking the ferry to North Vancouver. A monthly pass covering the central zone costs $69, and $130 for all three zones.

Despite not carrying a transit map with me, I was able to travel around without getting lost. Perhaps due to B.C.'s regular rainfall, many bus stops have shelters, and many of those have maps of the transit system, along with information showing how often buses arrive.

At SkyTrain stations you can use dedicated phones to call for travel information while standing right in front of a map — without having to pay a quarter. Operators are available in the evening, unlike at the TTC.

Vancouver is a younger city than Toronto, and so is its transit system. TransLink appears to be more flush with cash than many transit authorities here in Ontario, and is preparing to build both a new SkyTrain route and a suburban light rail line. The agency is also upgrading regional roads and highways.

The TransLink board recently approved a $1.9 billion SkyTrain project to link downtown Vancouver with the region's international airport, and Richmond, a southern suburb. The "RAV" line is supposed to be completed before 2010, the year Vancouver is to share the Winter Olympics with the Whistler ski resort.

RAV has drawn criticism, especially that it will not attract enough riders to justify the high cost. That sounds similar to Toronto — both the Sheppard subway and the proposed extension of the Spadina line are vulnerable to the same critique.

Touring around Vancouver, I found the locals to be friendlier than we Torontonians. Bus drivers were often courteous and helpful, although I did chastise one operator. Despite driving an articulated bus full of passengers, he insisted on using one hand to hold his cellphone.
http://www.metronews.ca/column_in_tr...=10210&cid=634
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Old August 16th, 2005, 09:30 PM   #231
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^Thats not necesarrily a ringing endorsement of Translink vs TTC. Usually, people compare frequencies, routes, main lines and feeder lines. Reads like some casual columnist that really doesn't know much about transit, with the only written benefits over translink over TTC is having more cash, bus shelters (which most TTC and even Mississauga Transit have now), a fare zone, and a phone link. Oh year, and people are 'friendlier'. Very scientific.

Would have preferred to read a meaty article on what Translink is doing well at over the TTC that they could learn about (which there are) instead of some flowery fortune cookie crap.
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Old August 17th, 2005, 06:39 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
^ LRT is slow? You people praise Skytrain as fast even though Skytrain is really an LRT that happens to be elevated! Besides, even ground based LRT can be just as fast or even faster as long as it has priority over motor vehicles. But of course, in Vancouver, car is always the king! Talk about contradicting oneself! And get your facts straight! The Translink website using more current data specifically states the Coquitlam LRT travels 20 minutes! Frankly, I think the reason for the huge difference has more to do with so many stops as compared to a Skytrain Line in Coquitlam.
I went down to Portland recently and rode the MAX, and LRT *is* slow when sharing the street with cars, its even slower than a bus when on non dedicated right of ways in my opinion and when it goes faster on dedicated right of ways it "wiggles" a lot for a not so smooth ride. I was surprised by how curved the track can be for LRT, especially for that section when it branches to the airport. Overall I was not very impressed with LRT but I was impressed by how it was run, the fareless square idea in downtown is a great idea. Also the fares are awesome, $1.70 US for all zones, compared to the ripoff prices for Translink.

So overall, in my opinion, Vancouver has a really really crappy transit operator with a good system.
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Old August 17th, 2005, 08:02 AM   #233
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Wiggly LRT? - I suppose you're referring to streetcars. They must have pretty shoddy tracks in portland. Wiggly!?!
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Old August 17th, 2005, 08:38 PM   #234
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Found this pic of Interstate Max:



Lots more pics here:

http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/max.html
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Old August 17th, 2005, 10:50 PM   #235
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yes, that's an LRT.

and so is skytrain (technically)

and so are the streetcars in toronto


and wally, and kgb, and everybody else are lumping them all in the same category. And then they wonder why I accuse them of exaggerations.




=


?


i think not.
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Old August 17th, 2005, 11:06 PM   #236
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^LRT's, the Skytrain and Streetcars are all Light Rail but of just one form or another. The reason for the varation in design is because each serves a different purpose.

The Skytrain is like a semi-commuter line that travel long to intermediate distances. It also has more capacity for passengers (although not by much thesedays as LRT's are advancing very quickly).

A regular LRT system can do the entire range of long-intermediat-short distances depending on the requirments of the operation running it. LRT's are in many places being used instead of regular subways where there isn't enough ridership to warrent a subway. Based on the rapid growth of LRT's around the world as apposed to the ICTS, it would seem that they are a better and more reliable technology.

Streetcars are for intermediate to short distances. They have been around for a long time and will most likely be replaced by conventional LRTs in the future.

So realistically, they are not comparable despite being similar. It is however safe to say that conventional LRTs and Trams are far more successfull than the ICTS due to their previlance and continued growth.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 12:50 AM   #237
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They all have low capacities.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 03:28 AM   #238
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^ Is this low capacity per car? Couldn't you just add a whole bunch of cars to increase capacity? I know the Skytrain stations have a limit to the length of trains (6 cars?), but it's technically possible to lengthen the stations.

Hypothetical question - If you were to add enough cars to an LRT train, so you would obtain the same capacity as Heavy Rail, is it still called light rail? LRT, HRT, Rapid Transit... just labels to me.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 05:53 AM   #239
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Mmmhh, yes - it's still light rail. Heavy Rail, or subway cars, have higher capacities per car. Lengthening doesn't make a light rail vehicle heavy rail. You could string 20 ALRVs or streetcars together, and it'd still be light rail. Obviously there are other factors though. The cars of light rail vehicles are narrow (due to narrow track gauge), designed for 'light' traffic/use, and have lower speeds and weight limits.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 06:36 AM   #240
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Interesting. So heavy rail is more fat. Makes sense.

I'm not so sure about the lower speed limits for LRT. I think that is a general view. Probably true for the majority of systems because they go through city traffic. Doesn't Bombardier have a type of light rail vehicle that is specifically for greater speeds? I'd have to do some research to comfirm the speed of the faster LRTs.
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