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Old August 18th, 2005, 08:17 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addisonwesley
Wiggly LRT? - I suppose you're referring to streetcars. They must have pretty shoddy tracks in portland. Wiggly!?!
I just found the ride unsmooth when going at faster speeds thats all.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 08:54 AM   #242
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Well, I wouldn't use so crude term as fat in this case, but yes, heavy rail vehicles are wider. They also travel faster, a characteristic the word fat doesn't evoke. Just think of heavy rail as heavy duty.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 08:37 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addisonwesley
Well, I wouldn't use so crude term as fat in this case, but yes, heavy rail vehicles are wider. They also travel faster, a characteristic the word fat doesn't evoke. Just think of heavy rail as heavy duty.
and this is the reason i get upset over people lumping skytrain in with other LRTs and streetcars.


for SURE heavy-rail subways travel faster than streetcars and ground-based LRTs (and i've seen the best of them in various places around europe)

and i think people that don't know any better think skytrain is like that too - just elevated in it's own right of way. But skytrain is REALLY fast. It goes for many stretches at almost 90kph - that's faster than most subways is it not?
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Old August 18th, 2005, 08:55 PM   #244
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Well, skytrain is ALRT, the extra 'A' for advanced.

It is really almost HRT with its 3rd rail, its just its capacity that puts it in a different capacity. But I think it can be compared with both HRT systems, and LRT systems that are fully seperated - but not with Tram/Streetcar LRT systems.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 09:26 PM   #245
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Hmm, well I don't entirely doubt the MKII travelling faster than subways, would you please provide a link for their speed. I do know the MKI's are slower though, at 80 km/h. One subway car from the TTC can carry 250 passengers comfortably, while an MKII car can carry 130. That's a substantial difference. Perhaps heavy rail refers to a system with 'heavy' use, a system designed for more people. Plus, the MKII also look like other modern day LRT/Trams found on streets. But I mean, don't get upset or anything because the SkyTrain is grouped with LRT. If there isn't sufficient demand for a heavy rail system, it's not like it's the end of the world.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 10:31 PM   #246
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^Its not thatpeople are saying that the ICTS or ALRT deally is bad or anything, it is just that many people try to lump it in or compare it to HRT which is just wrong.

Trying to compare ICTSs to HRTs is like trying to compare a single lane two way road to a double or triple lane two way road. The multilane road handles more passengers and cannot be compared to the smaller one in route KMs.

The problem comes down to people who try and say that Vancouver has a system almost as good as TO's because it has a similar lenght of Skytrain system to TO's subway. This is a poor comparison as the Skytrain is more like a semi commuter transit system and isn't all that similar at all.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 11:03 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson
^Its not thatpeople are saying that the ICTS or ALRT deally is bad or anything, it is just that many people try to lump it in or compare it to HRT which is just wrong.

Trying to compare ICTSs to HRTs is like trying to compare a single lane two way road to a double or triple lane two way road. The multilane road handles more passengers and cannot be compared to the smaller one in route KMs.

The problem comes down to people who try and say that Vancouver has a system almost as good as TO's because it has a similar lenght of Skytrain system to TO's subway. This is a poor comparison as the Skytrain is more like a semi commuter transit system and isn't all that similar at all.

to me it seems like both sides are prone to extremism.

yes, you're right - you can't compare a one lane road to a three-lane road.

but neither can you compare a one-lane paved road to a one-lane unpaved dirt winding path with holes everywhere.


Skytrain doesn't have the same purpose as the Toronto subway. But neither does it have the same purpose as a a Ground LRT.

Nor can you call it a commuter-rail-like system, simply because Toronto and Vancouver are cities of differing plans. Toronto is more concentrated, while Vancouver depends heavily on the urban centers of it's neighbors.

If you asked somebody - what's more important - to have the subway in downtown toronto, or to have the subway link Downtown to North York, most people would say downtown - all the way (though you have both, which is great)

Meanwhile if you asked somebody in vancouver - what's more important - to have the skytrain in downtown vancouver, or to have Skytrain link Downtown to Metrotown, Brentwood, New Westminster, Surrey Central City, and Richmond Center, the answer would be reversed.

different priorities
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Old August 19th, 2005, 12:14 AM   #248
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Yes, the "heavy" of heavy rail refers to passenger capacity, not physical structure. Likewise, the "light" of light rail refers to passenger capacity, not physical structure. In fact, light rail vehicles that run on non-exclusive rights of way must be built sturdier than (and weigh more than) subway/metro cars because light rail vehicles can be hit by cars and trucks - an unlikely possibility on exclusive rights-of-way.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 12:22 AM   #249
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They're all light rail in the end.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 02:21 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addisonwesley
They're all light rail in the end.
Maybe they are but that opens the discussion up for logic of this sort (that so many people use)

Streetcar = LRT
Skytrain = LRT

Streetcar = Skytrain

or

The portland LRT = LRT
Skytrain = LRT

Skytrain = Portland LRT



the logic is fine, the conclusions are false. That's what happens when you lump all LRTs into one category.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 02:22 AM   #251
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Well, I think the term gets thrown around too often. It's too general to be used by itself in discussions, because who knows wtf system you are talking about.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 04:10 AM   #252
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Open to discussion? Why are you(pl) pressing this issue? Do you want people to consider the SkyTrain heavy rail or a subway? Would you be satisfied if it were just 'rapid transit'?
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Old August 19th, 2005, 04:10 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npinguy
Maybe they are but that opens the discussion up for logic of this sort (that so many people use)

Streetcar = LRT
Skytrain = LRT

Streetcar = Skytrain

or

The portland LRT = LRT
Skytrain = LRT

Skytrain = Portland LRT



the logic is fine, the conclusions are false. That's what happens when you lump all LRTs into one category.
I like the way you expressed yourself here. It is very effective, much more so than all that goubledygook that I wrote earlier.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 05:17 AM   #254
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The confusion comes about because the term light rail originates from passenger capacity.

The term in common usage, however, spearheaded by light rail / LRT advocates, has been redefined to exclude third rail systems - because they do not fit into the one-size-fits-all mold cast by the light rail advocates (ie LRT is flexible - hip hip hooray, it can run at grade, underground or elevated! Third rail LRT can't do that - so it was alienated by the pro LRT hoards).

That leaves the many third rail light or intermediate capacity systems like Docklands Light Railway; Lille's, Renne's, Toulouse's and other VAL systems; Kuala Lumpur's STAR LRT; Kuala Lumpur's Putra LRT and Vancouver's Skytrain outside of either heavy rail or LRT definitions.

Some people refer to them as "mini-metros" - acknowledging their similarities to third rail heavy rail systems while acknowledging their lower passenger capacity.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 06:50 AM   #255
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addisonwesley - what officedweller said.

There are plans to put in a "LRT" line to Coquitlam here, but it is a completely different deal than SkyTrain. A lot of people like to differentiate between them. That is all.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 06:54 AM   #256
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^Wait, what?! Well if it's to help locally, I guess that's all that really counts. But they fit the definition of light rail almost perfectly: narrow gauge, low capacity, low weight limit.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 06:59 AM   #257
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Ahem, looking at the picture on translink's website, it looks like a tram (I hate that word) line, which is also LRT. What's wrong with calling the two skytrain and the '_____' tram. I didn't know we were arguing for such a trivial reason, just drop it.

Last edited by addisonwesley; August 19th, 2005 at 07:07 AM.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 07:55 AM   #258
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^ what you see at Translink's website is quite preliminary, wouldn't take it seriously.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 10:07 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roch5220
Well, skytrain is ALRT, the extra 'A' for advanced.

It is really almost HRT with its 3rd rail, its just its capacity that puts it in a different capacity. But I think it can be compared with both HRT systems, and LRT systems that are fully seperated - but not with Tram/Streetcar LRT systems.

I think thats right.
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Old August 20th, 2005, 07:34 AM   #260
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I think in the future Vancouver will have better transit system; they seem to keep moving the idea of extending and building more lines i.e. Millennium, RAV, Coquitlam and UBC. Where as Toronto has hit a road block not really building anything substantial for a while, there also seems to be nothing on the city’s radar screen either, it’s all hypothetical. People must keep in mind when comparing these two systems Toronto has been at this a lot longer then Vancouver, when it comes to building mass transit systems. Vancouver has done well playing catch up to other cities and I think it will continue into the future. I think it will take a very forward minded person to get Toronto back on track.People can complain all they want about the federal government not giving them enough money, but ultimately it is up to the citizens to get the kind of transit they want.

Last edited by [email protected]_Coast; August 20th, 2005 at 07:49 AM.
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