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Old July 19th, 2005, 12:13 PM   #41
samsonyuen
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^That's weird they didn't even bother to take off the Mississauga Transit sign!

I say Toronto for sure. I think the least-busy subway station might be Glencairn, and I think I've read that Chester is the least-busy underground subway station. And I think Ellesmere or Midland are the least busiest rapid transit station (can't remember which is which).
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Old July 19th, 2005, 02:08 PM   #42
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I think the TTC's subway did quite well for it's safety record, considering how standard its subway technology was. Thanks for the pictures.
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Old July 19th, 2005, 07:38 PM   #43
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SkyTrain is very safe and reliable, I'll give it that.
In terms of technology Translink does have WCE and the Seabus so its a bit more diversified than is being stated here.
That said, I don't, and most people don't, care what the hell the technology is as long as it is efficient, fast, reliable, comfortable, safe, and cost effective.
If the TTC had LRT underground along Yonge it wouldn't mean a hoot to me as long as the service is there and the route is the same. I should make a priviso here as I am talking about rail. I don't think there iss much debate about the limited capacity and crappy rides of a bus but they are still very much the workhorses of a system.
The SkyTrain may have the newest technology but who cares? I just want to get from here to there. To me its the kind of coverage you get {ie down a main road like Yonge and Bloor} as opposed to point to point like SkyTrain. The former is always superior to the later for the travelling public and that is reflected perfectly in the subway vs SkyTrain ridership levels.
I think it has less to do with the technology than the route and coverage area.
Of course the system also has to be cost effective which SkyTrain isn't and CTrain is.
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Old July 19th, 2005, 08:24 PM   #44
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I will say this. I had no problem with Toronto's Transit, but I only used it in the downtown area, Vancouver's Transit downtown is just as good as in Toronto (both cities have excelent coverage downtown). At this time Toronto is a little better, but I think in 5 years with RAV, Vancouver-Street Car and the LRT Greater Vancouver will be better then Toronto in terms of Transit.
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Old July 19th, 2005, 08:33 PM   #45
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For a city of Toronto's size rapid transit coverage is poor. If you live near a subway station then you're fine. The service is really frequent though a bit noisy and its clear some of the stations need renovations.
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Old July 19th, 2005, 09:52 PM   #46
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Yeah, if you consider the TTC only then the rapid transit coverage is poor, but there is GO Transit as well.
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Old July 20th, 2005, 01:16 AM   #47
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Yes, GO does have good coverage. Once the GTA Metrocard comes into use, travelling throughout the region will be even easier.
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Old July 20th, 2005, 01:18 AM   #48
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OMG!!!! I DIDNT NOTICE THAT!!!!!!

Why was a Sauga bus in LA?
----------------------------------------

Everyone knows the money building all those lines in MTL and VC is from Toronto.

Federal government is anti-Toronto.
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Old July 21st, 2005, 06:44 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayeTheOnly
OMG!!!! I DIDNT NOTICE THAT!!!!!!

Why was a Sauga bus in LA?
Here's Another Pic
of the sauga bus in Cali.

Acorrding to the site"
This is a shot of Mississauga Transit articulated 5034 (retired) on an October 2004 fan trip in California. Why would you be a fan of Mississauga Transit Buses, I do not know. BTW, you can tell the buses are the same cause both are route 8 (ironically the route I get to school on) and both have the same number on the front (5034)
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Old July 21st, 2005, 07:09 AM   #50
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"For a city of Toronto's size rapid transit coverage is poor. If you live near a subway station then you're fine."


Well, that's just the thing...take a look at just how many live or work within walking distance of a subway. It's a rather large number.

And let's not discount how frequent the service is on feeder routes to subways....or just how many feeder routes there are (all surface routes connect to the subway).








"Vancouver's Transit downtown is just as good as in Toronto"

Yea sure...downtown Toronto is serviced by 18 subway stations ( 21 if you count the three double stations)...11 LRT routes ( 2 of which are ROW)...and a few bus routes. Not to mention the massive transit hub which is Union Station (subway, LRT, commuter train, commuter bus and VIA). That one building will see more transit passengers than the whole Skytrain.

And you really believe Vancouver has that kind of downtown transit coverage?







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Old July 21st, 2005, 07:40 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
Yea sure...downtown Toronto is serviced by 18 subway stations ( 21 if you count the three double stations)...11 LRT routes ( 2 of which are ROW)...and a few bus routes. Not to mention the massive transit hub which is Union Station (subway, LRT, commuter train, commuter bus and VIA). That one building will see more transit passengers than the whole Skytrain.

And you really believe Vancouver has that kind of downtown transit coverage?
Hmm... just for a comparison

Downtown Vancouver served by 4 skytrain stations (plus 2 more by 2010), and 12 trolley routes [as a comparison to Toronto's streetcars] (most of them goes through a trolley only section in Granville Mall), a B-Line rapid bus with 8 stations, a historic streetcar route (well, if that counts...) and about 5 more local bus routes and about 20 more suburban routes... The Waterfront Station currently serves 2 skytrain lines, a commuter train (West Coast Express), Sea bus terminal to North Vancouver, and a B-Line rapid bus route. By 2010 or so it'll also serve the RAV line, the proposed downtown LRT, possibly 1 or 2 more sea bus routes that was proposed, and maybe the new Hasting B-Line...

Last edited by nname; July 21st, 2005 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Forget to count the #20 trolley route...
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Old July 21st, 2005, 07:41 AM   #52
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The busiest commuter station in Canada.
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Old July 21st, 2005, 07:49 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname
Hmm... just for a comparison

Downtown Vancouver served by 4 skytrain stations (plus 2 more by 2010), and 11 trolley routes [as a comparison to Toronto's streetcars] (most of them goes through a trolley only section in Granville Mall), a B-Line rapid bus with 8 stations, a historic streetcar route (well, if that counts...) and about 5 more local bus routes and about 20 more suburban routes... The Waterfront Station currently serves 2 skytrain lines, a commuter train (West Coast Express), Sea bus terminal to North Vancouver, and a B-Line rapid bus route. By 2010 or so it'll also serve the RAV line, the proposed downtown LRT, possibly 1 or 2 more sea bus routes that was proposed, and maybe the new Hasting B-Line...
First and foremost, trolley buses and streetcars are two totally different things. Trolley buses are no where near the level of quality as real streetcars and ultimately, they are just like ordinary buses that happened to be powered by overhead wires.

Second, B-Line rapid buses are just that, buses. There is nothing special about them and they aren't even true BRTs. They are just some fancy name Translink came up to make up for the inadequacy of a true rapid transit network caused by stupid spending brought by the Millenium Line and now the RAV Line.

Third, there is no proposed downtown LRT nor are there more sea bus routes.

I realize that Vancouver's transit system absolutely sucks but my God! Talk about desperation. Vancouver forumers would make up things like downtown LRTs and glorify their inadequate transit services such as B-Lines just to somehow prove, with little success I may add, that it is better than Toronto's. Give me a break!
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Old July 21st, 2005, 07:51 AM   #54
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Yes if you live downtown Vancouver the service is great. That said lets not even compare it to the TTC.............the subways, GO, streetcars.
FAR superior.
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Old July 21st, 2005, 08:02 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
First and foremost, trolley buses and streetcars are two totally different things. Trolley buses are no where near the level of quality as real streetcars and ultimately, they are just like ordinary buses that happened to be powered by overhead wires.

Second, B-Line rapid buses are just that, buses. There is nothing special about them and they aren't even true BRTs. They are just some fancy name Translink came up to make up for the inadequacy of a true rapid transit network caused by stupid spending brought by the Millenium Line and now the RAV Line.

Third, there is no proposed downtown LRT nor are there more sea bus routes.

I realize that Vancouver's transit system absolutely sucks but my God! Talk about desperation. Vancouver forumers would make up things like downtown LRTs and glorify their inadequate transit services such as B-Lines just to somehow prove, with little success I may add, that it is better than Toronto's. Give me a break!
Proposed downtown streetcars I guess it was mentioned a few times in the Vancouver Transit thread, and since KGB was calling TO's streetcars "LRT", I guess I should call them LRT too for comparison.

For the streetcars, isn't most of them share roadways with the traffic and does not have signal priority? what is it different from normal bus besides it run on rail? I have never taken streetcars and trolleys before, but they both seems like a different variation of bus to me... I don't think I can comment on this.

For the proposed marine passenger service: http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pdf...Final_2004.pdf

And yes, I agree the B-Line sucks... it was not much faster than normal bus as most of the route (except the part in Richmond) are shared with traffic. The only benifit I see is knowing how long the next bus will come (but well, it usually come within 5 min so there's not much you can do even if you know this...)

And finally, I'm just listing all the things downtown Vancouver have (and nothing is made up). I never said which system was superior (well... by the comparison, clearly it is TO by far, and it should be because it is a much larger city, but then, transit in downtown does not "absolutely sucks" as you mentioned in your reply)...

And this is all I will say about this.
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Old July 21st, 2005, 08:06 AM   #56
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"Hmm... just for a comparison"


Hmm...doesn't seem to stand up to comparison....despite that desperate attempt. Skytrains are not subways (and they certainly don't cover much of downtown), and buses are not LRT's. Not that it's necessary, but take a look at downtown Toronto's route map...it's surrounded on all sides, and all in between.

Ridership is completely pointelss to even bring up.

How do you accept anyone to take you seriously if you are delusionary enough to actually claim Vancouver's transit is even remotely as good as the TTC, let alone make predictions that it will be "better" in a few years?






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Old July 21st, 2005, 08:10 AM   #57
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^ Amen to that, KGB. Of course, if the money for RAV wasn't wasted on the creme de la creme tunneling, there should be more than enough money to truly make some significant improvements to the Greater Vancouver's transit system by 2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nname
For the streetcars, isn't most of them share roadways with the traffic and does not have signal priority? what is it different from normal bus besides it run on rail? I have never taken streetcars and trolleys before, but they both seems like a different variation of bus to me... I don't think I can comment on this.
Big difference, buddy. Streetcars are far more attractive, carry more people, have a smoother ride, enhances its surroundings, and gives a city a very urban feel. They are absolutely NOT a variation of a bus. Trolley buses are just plain silly for the vehicle are not much different than ordinary buses with its bumpy ride and stigma. One complaint with streetcars are the "ugly" overhead wires but the fact that they are being used by streetcars or LRTs more than make up for the visual impact. But for trolley buses, both the wires and vehicles are just undesirable.
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Old July 21st, 2005, 08:20 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Big difference, buddy. Streetcars are far more attractive, carry more people, have a smoother ride, enhances its surroundings, and gives a city a very urban feel. They are absolutely NOT a variation of a bus. Trolley buses are just plain silly for the vehicle are not much different than ordinary buses with its bumpy ride and stigma.
Thanks for the info.

Not sure if it takes more peoples just by looking at the pic... I must go there and see it somedays. And for the smoother ride, yes, I can imagine that.

There is one advantage of trolley buses over streetcars though... streetcars can't pass each other or other traffic in situations like breakdowns or accidents, while the newest trolley technology can let the bus run on battery for a short distance... But I'm not sure if the new ones in Vancouver can do this...
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Old July 21st, 2005, 08:26 AM   #59
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A modern streetcar system's intent isn't for speedy service but rather to enhance a neighbourhood and make a transit mode more attractive to users who would otherwise never go near a transit vehicle. That is why streetcars typically service tourist areas although people who happen to live and work in the same area are attracted to them as well.

Portland's streetcar is legendary but one heritage streetcar that seems to be a successful attraction to locals is the F-Line in San Francisco. Its intent was to serve as a substitute tourist attraction while the cable car systems were being repaired and now, locals living in the Castro District or Russian Hill use it as if it was a normal transit line.

Trolley buses don't add much value other than some desire to cut pollution. But given that most modern diesel buses are cheaper and yet pollute less, it doesn't really make that much sense to spend more on these fancy buses. Diesels can avoid accidents too, and so can private automobiles. But of course, if you have streetcars all over, people won't be using much private automobiles, hence little accidents to avoid...
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Old July 21st, 2005, 08:47 AM   #60
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Streetcars move more people faster than buses. And yes, downtown Toronto does have ROW lines...not that they are any faster than the ones that run in traffic...ROW only supplies a more reliable frequency schedule...not faster travel times (this is because loading/unloading times and traffic lights are the main factors that determine these things).

Streetcars have the advantage over buses by not only carrying more passengers, but they also control the traffic behind them (and yes, the do have signal priority equipment). This is of course on top of the fact that they are just a superior ride...regulars and tourists alike never stop loving streetcars...they even enhance the vibrancy of the street.

So...streetcars carry more passengers...move them faster...and move them cheaper...on a vehicle that is more environmentally friendly...and aestetically pleasing. Otherwise they would have buses on those routes instead of streetcars...the TTC runs a very tight ship in terms of cost efficiency...no transit agency can touch them on that.

These streetcars carry 175-200k passengers a day...you might want to consider those figures when comparing them to the entire Skytrain network just to get an idea of what we are talking about.

And no...a steetcar cannot actually pass another streetcar directly in front of it...but they can re-route them...you can't forget all the connecting loop track all over the place....so yes, they can actually pass eachother...not that you would do that for the odd time there is an accident or other blockage in front of them...they don't take long to clear.






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