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Old July 21st, 2005, 08:59 AM   #61
KGB
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"A modern streetcar system's intent isn't for speedy service but rather to enhance a neighbourhood and make a transit mode more attractive to users who would otherwise never go near a transit vehicle."


The last part of that comment I will totally agree with...for many reasons, everyone loves a streetcar...and everybody generally hates a bus.

The first part of your comment may apply in some cities...but Toronto's streetcar network is unique to Toronto's needs...tourists may love them...but they are a serious local transit mode designed as such...there's nothing "touristy" about them...they're not for show.

And they are in fact quite speedy...so I wouldn't really agree with that either...I would say they are intended for shorter distances, that's all. I live in Parkdale...I can be at Yonge street in 10 or 15 minutes from the time I leave my front door...I find it quite speedy.

Remember, all streetcars make connections with the subways...sometimes going right into the subway station...connecting to the subway or visa versa is nothing more than one flight of stairs within the fare-paid area...no need to even transfer.

Is there really any point in mentioning how well downtown is serviced by 24HR transit or how much has direct indoor access to the subways as well?






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Old July 21st, 2005, 09:03 AM   #62
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^ Well, to be honest, I don't know much about Toronto's streetcar system so thank you for the clarification. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Toronto one of those cities that resisted the dark moment of history where streetcar systems in North Americans cities all over were torn down in favor of buses?
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Old July 21st, 2005, 09:07 AM   #63
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Amtrak goes to Union too, can't forget that. Let's see all in one station u can get:

Via Rail: Anywhere in Canada.
Go Transit: Anywhere in the GTA.
TTC Subway: Anywhere in Toronto.
Amtrak: Anywhere in The U.S.A
Harbourfront/Spadina LRT: Harbourfront & Spadina

I like the way this thread is turning out .
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Old July 21st, 2005, 09:11 AM   #64
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Well, back when everybody was deciding to eliminate their streetcars, the TTC was planning to do the same. But many factors lead to this not happening. Remember, while other NA cities were experiencing no mass transit expansion after the war, Toronto was actually building it's....this is when Toronto was actually building it's subways...which replaced streetcar lines itself.

To make a long story short, enough factors lead to Toronto keeping it's streetcar system alive long enough to realize they are actually benificial...too late for all the other cities.






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Old July 21st, 2005, 09:14 AM   #65
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"Via Rail: Anywhere in Canada.
Go Transit: Anywhere in the GTA.
TTC Subway: Anywhere in Toronto.
Amtrak: Anywhere in The U.S.A
Harbourfront/Spadina LRT: Harbourfront & Spadina"

It also has indoor access to a Leaf game...I mean com'on...how can you beat that? LOL

And to take it to it's ultimate conclusion, you might as well say that with the new Pearson line...anywhere on the planet!!!






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Old July 21st, 2005, 09:31 AM   #66
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Hold on! It's getting built? ok

I don't like hockey. None of my freinds do either. Pretty much 75% of Scarborough is anti Hockey. Basketball is cool, and I like WATCHING baseball (went to a game at SKYDOME today, I never heard of this.....Rogers Centre... ).
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Old July 21st, 2005, 10:35 AM   #67
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I think this may do better in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayeTheOnly
I HATE how MTL and VC are building subways and Toronto isn't.

I wish I was prime minister. Has Toronto EVER been favoured? It's like they want our city to fail? Anyways, yea I love the TTC. I brush off GO transit as for "Suburbinites," as Scarborough is not a suburb.

I can think of many subway lines I'd build, that are actually good investments because of density and overcapacity buses.

Sheppard East: To Scarborough Centre, then to Morningside.

SRTafter upgrade to MKII) up to Cetennial College, the to the City of Markham through Malvern.

Eglinton West: Beautiful elevated full heavy rail throught to airport, down the median of Eglinton.

Eglinton East: Through to Kennedy Station, and continue along Eglinton to the over capacity, high density corridor on Kingston Rd, to Morningside.

Queen Subway: Through to Airport connect with Eglinton, To the east, run up Don mills, to connect with Eglinton and Sheppard (CrAzY).

Yonge to Steeles.

YorkU

Bloor to Sherway Gardens, LRT through Mississauga (it's a disgrace that a suburb is building an independant LRT).

Harbourfront LRT (MKII): City Place , and further along to increase apperence of the area and attract some more skyline and highdensity developments to the west of Bay Street. And East to the Eastern Beaches.

Who else thinks Jane Street needs a subway? Its Very high density, someone told me it's the most congested street in Toronto, and transit ridership is high.

Honestly, I can go on forever, tell me what u think.
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Old July 21st, 2005, 06:38 PM   #68
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WAIT one minute!
VIA does NOT take you anywhere in Canada. Since they cut the service in the 80's REgina and Calgary have absolutly NO VIA service. In order to get to either from anywhere you have to take the bus or a plane.
Outrageous especially Calgary, the nations 5th largest city with no service.
This is why many out west get ticked when they hear about more money for VIA. What they really mean is more money for the Corridor.
The VIA trains only come into Vancouver 3 days a week. VIA has been trying to close the E&N on Vancouver Island for ever. The service is only once a day in each direction, with one old train where you can't even get pop. Some of the stops are litterally shacks. They have left the trains and tracks in such disrepair that Victoria to Nanaimo {120km} takes 2hrs15min! VIA goes out of its way to make it as slow and user unfriendly as possible. Even the ONE train going into Victoria gets there at night as opposed to in the morning for people who want to commute from Duncan or people who want to go to Victoria for the day and leave on the ONE train back in the evening.
Victoria Tourism/city have been trying to change the time as the track doesn't get used for anything else but VIA has flatly refused, it would be too convienet. In fact they wanted to shut ALL passenger service to BC in the late 80s but they were taken to court and the Supreme Court {yes that how many times VIA appealed} stated they had to provide service as getting passenger rail was a condition of BC joining confederation.

As for the streetcars, yes I far prefer them to buses but you will get no complaints for the trolleys from me. Diesel buses are not as good in the city. They pollute {and please don't say that doesn't amount to much}, they are quieter which is important especially when buses try to go up steep Vancouver streets, and they have better pickup than a diesel.
They are more expensive to buy but due to BC low Hydro rates they are also cheaper to run and they last about 6 years longer than your standard diesel.
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Old July 21st, 2005, 09:17 PM   #69
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Both streetcars and trolley buses create pollution, not directly of course, but that electricity require to operate them has to be generated somewhere. Streetcars are much more comfortable ride so they are superior to any bus, and trolley buses aren't really that much better than normal buses and possibly worse in some ways, especially in terms of flexibilty, taking away the only advantage that buses have over other forms of mass transit in the first place.
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Old July 22nd, 2005, 08:47 AM   #70
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WRONG!
BC Hydro is exactly that.
Streetcars are more comfortable but the cost to now make all the trolley lines streetcar would be expensive and result in little increase in ridership. It would not be worth it.
Trolleys are quiet, clean, cost-effective, and have good pickup. They are FAR superior to ANY bus on the road.
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Old July 22nd, 2005, 02:42 PM   #71
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I would just like to know how many major rivers/ocean inlets Torontos transit has to cross, or how many mountains it has to climb. It is obvious that Toronto has a way better transit system than Vancouver but seeing as though TO is landlocked and flat it naturally has the advantage. On a daily basis buses in Vancouver have to scale mountain sides (e.g. Burnaby mountain, Grouse mountain, ) cross major rivers (the Fraser) and navigate across ocean inlets . It makes accessible transit a little more difficult than your average city.
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Old July 22nd, 2005, 03:10 PM   #72
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Toronto has to deal with more winter weather.
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Old July 22nd, 2005, 06:56 PM   #73
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Weather doesn't slow down trolleys in Vancouver.
I think trolleys are excellent.
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Old July 22nd, 2005, 07:42 PM   #74
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two things:

1
the amount of bullshit exaggerations being spewed by BOTH sides is staggering.

i expected as much from Wally and KGB but my fellow vancuoverites have disappointed me.


2
Toronto has a better subway system - by far - yes. Toronto has a decent streetcar system - yes.
And of course
Is that enough alone to make it beat out Vancouver? Well - I'm a sucker for subways so IMO yes.


That being said, it's not a LANDSLIDE by any stretch of imagination. Vancouver's bus coverage is extensive enough that it suits our needs just fine. Obviously we can't compare the systems 1-to-1 since Toronto is so much larger.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 02:30 AM   #75
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If I'm going to be accused of "bullshit exaggerations", that's fine....but I would appreciate you pointing out specifically what you think they are. Thank you.






"That being said, it's not a LANDSLIDE by any stretch of imagination."


I think there is a big enough difference to merit the term "landslide" quite easily. It's the idea that some people actually think they are at par...slightly different, or actually "better". This is what Vancouverites are constantly saying....so "landslide" in the TTC's favour is about the most accurate description being made here.









"Obviously we can't compare the systems 1-to-1 since Toronto is so much larger."


Larger in what? The TTC only operates within the city proper...which happens to be 630 sq kms....how big of an area does Translink cover...a lot more than that. And the population it serves isn't that far off either...Toronto is 2.5 million...what's the population of the area that falls under Translink's jurisdiction?

No...it isn't a "size" issue at all...it's a built form issue...and Toronto is just planned in a way to better suit public transit use.






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Old July 23rd, 2005, 03:06 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
If I'm going to be accused of "bullshit exaggerations", that's fine....but I would appreciate you pointing out specifically what you think they are. Thank you.






"That being said, it's not a LANDSLIDE by any stretch of imagination."


I think there is a big enough difference to merit the term "landslide" quite easily. It's the idea that some people actually think they are at par...slightly different, or actually "better". This is what Vancouverites are constantly saying....so "landslide" in the TTC's favour is about the most accurate description being made here.









"Obviously we can't compare the systems 1-to-1 since Toronto is so much larger."


Larger in what? The TTC only operates within the city proper...which happens to be 630 sq kms....how big of an area does Translink cover...a lot more than that. And the population it serves isn't that far off either...Toronto is 2.5 million...what's the population of the area that falls under Translink's jurisdiction?

No...it isn't a "size" issue at all...it's a built form issue...and Toronto is just planned in a way to better suit public transit use.






KGB

I only have a few minutes to post so I'll find the quote that i considered bulshit exaggeration later however i'll respond to the other point.

Although the whole "landslide" thign certainly qualifies.


Okay here is my point in a nutshell:

First of all, people have posted links, pics, and maps that include Go Trains, the Scarborough RT, the Missisauga bus system etc. So clearly that services more than just Toronto City Proper. SO you can't tell me that this is all we're talking about.

HOWEVER, if you want to focus on ONLY the TTC and ONLY Toronto city proper, that's fine, absolutely.


The GVRD (ie the lower mainland - that i covered by translink) is ~2.5 million.
Toronto (city proper) is ~2.5 million.

You mentioned that and I don't disagree.


HOWEVER. The GVRD is a much larger area. Obiously. That's a metro area, while Toronto is just the city.

So, the same 2.5 million people are more spread out. Again - obviously, we both understand that. AS SUCH, there is less of a need of a subway system as large as Toronto's, or a streetcar system as large as toronto's. Because in Toronto more people are contained to a smaller area, while in Vancouver they're all spread out a bit more, so that's simple enough.


AS SUCH, when one considers what makes a system Better, one has to consider what makes it better FOR that city. ie - is Toronto's TTC better for Toronto than Vancouver's Translink is for the GVRD.

Now, since I mentioned that the streetcar network and the Subway system are NOT necessary for Vancouver to the same amount, they do not factor into that consideration. So the primary thing then is buses.

And if you look at the map you will see that the entire lower mainland is extensively covered with Bus routes. The coverage is EXCELLENT.

Is toronto? yes it is. I went to the site and saw the map. Excellent coverage as well.


IN CONCLUSION:

-Both cities have extensive extremely good bus coverage
-Toronto has an extensive subway system that Vancouver does not need. While Vancouver has a skytrain system that serves it well
-Toronto has an extensive streetcar network that Vancouver does not need. However Vancouver does need a COUPLE streetcar lines and will get them within the next several years.

All that adds up to a win for Toronto. But a LANDSLIDE? No. Only in ABSOLUTE terms, not in relative terms to the city's actual needs.


And that's where basically the bullshit exaggerations come in. Vancouverites are going off as if Toronto is complete shit and that Vancouver can kick it's ass. While Torontonians are going off as if Vancouver is a one horse town and has a horrible good-for-nothing system.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 05:04 AM   #77
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I think Vancouver has quite a decent service and service in the city is excellent.
Streetcars are superior to buses but the trolley buses are great for the reasons I mentioned above.
There is no doubt that Toronto does have a far superior system.
Vancouver's problem is that they build these big lines with little ridership.
In Vancouver its not SkyTrain per se. It is fast, efficient, non-polluting, very frequent, and very safe. The problem is where they put it. Translink is building a rapid transit system primarily for suburbanites not urbanites and this results in lower transit patronage levels.
Its not that they build rapid transit its that they don't get bang for the buck.
When you get systems that cost one quarter the price, provide better service to urbanites like yet serve a smaller city, like CTrain is where you realise that SkyTrain is
expensive system for the results acheived.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 06:22 AM   #78
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"I only have a few minutes to post so I'll find the quote that i considered bulshit exaggeration later however i'll respond to the other point. Although the whole "landslide" thign certainly qualifies."


Well, since you made the effort to single two forumers by name as being characteristic of "bullshit exaggerations" (myself being one of them), it would indicate there are many examples to choose from, seeing as how you have insinuated it's a common occurance (by using the phrase... "i expected as much" )....I'm just asking you to point them out....shouldn't be that difficult seeing as how apparantly I do so often as to merit it as "expected" behavior.

Present your case or withdraw your comment. That's a fair request...yea?










"So, the same 2.5 million people are more spread out. Again - obviously, we both understand that. AS SUCH, there is less of a need of a subway system as large as Toronto's, or a streetcar system as large as toronto's. Because in Toronto more people are contained to a smaller area, while in Vancouver they're all spread out a bit more, so that's simple enough. AS SUCH, when one considers what makes a system Better, one has to consider what makes it better FOR that city. ie - is Toronto's TTC better for Toronto than Vancouver's Translink is for the GVRD."


Sorry...I'm still trying to figure out why the phrase "AS SUCH" merits the accentuation it has...don't get it...oh well...let's carry on.

Your arguement is a bit of a cart-before-the-horse scenario. Taken to it's ultimate conclusion, you would conclude that some sprawling hell with little or no transit service at all is even better than Toronto's, because it's serves the transit needs of it's population perfectly (as in they don't need or want any at all).

You don't design transit to serve the built form....you design the built form to serve transit. If the design of the built form does not take transit into consideration as one of it's main planning features, then it it has already failed. If all you can do is try to play catch-up later by trying to fit in a transit system to serve a built form that wasn't designed for it, you end up with a very inneficient transit system. And the whole idea behind transit is efficiency in the first place.









"Toronto has an extensive subway system that Vancouver does not need. While Vancouver has a skytrain system that serves it well"


Well, Toronto was designing and building it's subways back in the 1940's...when it was actually no bigger than the City of Vancouver is now.





"Toronto has an extensive streetcar network that Vancouver does not need. However Vancouver does need a COUPLE streetcar lines and will get them within the next several years."


Same scenario...and like almost every city, Vancouver got rid of it's streetcar system. And like most cities, have learned in retrospect that it probably was not a good idea.









" is Toronto's TTC better for Toronto than Vancouver's Translink is for the GVRD."


Well, since the TTC is far more efficient at doing it's job, then the answer is imperically...yes.








"Both cities have extensive extremely good bus coverage"


Well, there you go making statements that give the impression that they are equal in some way. And that simply isn't true. Not only is the average walking distance to a transit stop much less in Toronto, the frequency of service is better (in fact it has an extensive 24hr service as well), the ridership is higher, the cost efficiency is higher, and intigration with the rest of the transit system is better. So just looking at a transit route map is no indication about which system is "better"....or "better suited" as you seem to want to emphisize.








"Vancouverites are going off as if Toronto is complete shit and that Vancouver can kick it's ass. While Torontonians are going off as if Vancouver is a one horse town and has a horrible good-for-nothing system."


Since I'm not advocating either of those theories, I'm still wondering why my name is singled out as doing so?









KGB

Last edited by KGB; July 23rd, 2005 at 06:32 AM.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 06:49 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
I think Vancouver has quite a decent service and service in the city is excellent.
Streetcars are superior to buses but the trolley buses are great for the reasons I mentioned above.
There is no doubt that Toronto does have a far superior system.
Vancouver's problem is that they build these big lines with little ridership.
In Vancouver its not SkyTrain per se. It is fast, efficient, non-polluting, very frequent, and very safe. The problem is where they put it. Translink is building a rapid transit system primarily for suburbanites not urbanites and this results in lower transit patronage levels.
Its not that they build rapid transit its that they don't get bang for the buck.
When you get systems that cost one quarter the price, provide better service to urbanites like yet serve a smaller city, like CTrain is where you realise that SkyTrain is
expensive system for the results acheived.

Well, I concur with this post and is the reason why Toronto's transit is far more superior than that of Vancouver. And I must add that Toronto did not build their subway to appease their creme de la creme....
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:04 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
"I only have a few minutes to post so I'll find the quote that i considered bulshit exaggeration later however i'll respond to the other point. Although the whole "landslide" thign certainly qualifies."

Well, since you made the effort to single two forumers by name as being characteristic of "bullshit exaggerations" (myself being one of them), it would indicate there are many examples to choose from, seeing as how you have insinuated it's a common occurance (by using the phrase... "i expected as much" )....I'm just asking you to point them out....shouldn't be that difficult seeing as how apparantly I do so often as to merit it as "expected" behavior.

Present your case or withdraw your comment. That's a fair request...yea?

KGB
I would like to hear npinguy present his case too, assuming he has one.
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