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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:29 AM   #81
Plumber73
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Hey. Does anyone know if there are surveys, or something, indicating the level of satisfaction of transit riders from each of the cities (Toronto and Vancouver)? That would tell me a lot more, rather than people just saying one is better.... blah blah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
creme de la creme....
There it is again. Wally, all you do with these words is make me think of food.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:39 AM   #82
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^ LOL! mr X thinks creme de la creme is an insult. You think its food. Here is the official definition.

crème de la crème Audio pronunciation of "creme de la creme" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krm d lä krm)
n.

1. Something superlative.
2. People of the highest social level.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:43 AM   #83
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Toronto isn't exactly landlocked. We have rivers (the Don and Humber) but really they're more like creeks. There is the Don Valley though, the subway crosses that via the Prince Edward Viaduct (aka Bloor Viaduct) - and that is a steep valley. TTC doesn't cross lake Ontario though. And when you say mountains, seriously, how steep?

I think most people will agree with me when I say it's a stupid idea to build your rapid transit in/to creme de la creme. Those people can afford to drive, and there obviously isn't going to be the ridership levels you want. That's just stupid, bad planning. But most of Toronto's wealthy people live in the actual city, and not in the suburbs - although there is Richmond Hill with the higher middle-high class.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:49 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Well, I concur with this post and is the reason why Toronto's transit is far more superior than that of Vancouver. And I must add that Toronto did not build their subway to appease their creme de la creme....
It's interesting to note that many of Toronto's subway stations are near Toronto's creme de la creme, including Rosedale, Forest Hill, Bridle Path (close enough on Bayview) & most of North York around Yonge and Bayview.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:53 AM   #85
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What I meant was they did not build a subway because the creme de la creme demanded it to be a subway, aka RAV Line. It has been pointed out many times in these forums that the sole reason why RAV is tunneled is because of creme de la creme lobbying. I would think those areas where Toronto's subway goes through, even the wealthy ones, have far more density and population that the Cambie Corridor, hence justifying a subway line. RAV Line as a subway is just plain stupid. Its okay for it to be a segregated ground LRT or an elevated system like Skytrain but a subway being built solely because creme de la creme does not want to see the train at all, that's just plain wrong....
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:56 AM   #86
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^ The density in Toronto (North of Bloor) developed gradually after the subway came into the area. North York City Centre is a product of Toronto's subway extending into the suburbs. When the subway first opened, most of these areas were typically low-mid density areas. Once the subway came, demand to live in the area increased exponentially and density increased to meet it.

Toronto's Sheppard line is hoping for the same kind of development to take place in the future. Right now, most of the stations are underutilized, but in the future , density will increase as new developments start popping up.

Spadina line on the other hand did not develop the kind of ridership that the Yonge Line currently enjoys.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:59 AM   #87
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^ But Toronto allows such density to be built and I would think that a city that large would require a heavy rail rapid transit system anyway given its sheer size. As far as I know, Vancouver city council has little intention to densify the Cambie Corridor. It would mean tearing down the existing single family homes and commercial areas and rebuilding them into taller commercial buildings and residential complex...unless that is the reason why RAVCO did the "bait and switch" tactic and changed it to cut and cover to put those Cambie merchants out of business and residents out of their homes....

Remember, the original plan for RAV is Skytrain but the creme de la creme revolted, ensured that Cambie becomes a "heritage boulevard", the one and only heritage blvd in the entire province of BC, if not Western Canada or even all of Canada, and forced Translink and the city of Vancouver to require tunneling underneath it while the rest of the GVRD have to contend with elevated (even Richmond who wanted at grade).
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:05 AM   #88
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^ The biggest problem is not the RAV line itself, but the NIMBYs who control city council. That's why I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up with the RAV line. It's needed for the region, and it's the perfect way to effect change in the area. The problem does not lie with the RAV line, it lies with a Pro-NIMBY, anti-development city council that's not willing to consider its future.

The best way is to replace these NIMBY councillors with pro-Development councillors, and the province should merge Vancouver & several other municipalities together to weaken the NIMBYs' griphold on City council. (Along with broadening the tax base). Of course, the BC Liberals doesn't want to upset the creme de la cremes too much (I think they wouldn't like a repeat of the Eagleridge Cliffs contreversy...essentially pitting pro-business residents against them) & most likely will try to avoid the matter as much as possible.

You are right about one thing though. If the NIMBYs get their way (no increase in density & under-grade South of QE park), Translink will be building itself a $ 1.8+ billion white elephant, extra money wasted for no reason.

Last edited by rt_0891; July 23rd, 2005 at 08:10 AM.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:09 AM   #89
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Aha, it's nice to know that you know Toronto's wealthy neighbourhoods.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:10 AM   #90
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@rt_0891

I said many times that I have nothing against the RAV Line itself and I think even ssiguy2 and perhaps KGB have nothing against it also. Its just its current form is absolutely stupid. And given that its current form is influenced solely by the creme de la creme, then its a bad system. I wouldn't mind it being an at grade LRT that have priority ROW or a continuation of their current Skytrain network for seamless integration. The problem is people are so blind and defensive about anything Vancouver that they defend it like crazy even though it is clearly doing the wrong thing.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:11 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addisonwesley
Aha, it's nice to know that you know Toronto's wealthy neighbourhoods.
I'm living in TO right now.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:20 AM   #92
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Excellent; Hog's Hollow?
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 09:29 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
.unless that is the reason why RAVCO did the "bait and switch" tactic and changed it to cut and cover to put those Cambie merchants out of business and residents out of their homes.
[QUOTE=Wally]And given that its current form is influenced solely by the creme de la creme, then its a bad system.[QUOTE]

So which is it? The creme de la creme are bad, or the poor cambie merchant's deserve better, they're the one's that determined RAV's current form, and now are upset by it.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 12:11 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
"I only have a few minutes to post so I'll find the quote that i considered bulshit exaggeration later however i'll respond to the other point. Although the whole "landslide" thign certainly qualifies."

Well, since you made the effort to single two forumers by name as being characteristic of "bullshit exaggerations" (myself being one of them), it would indicate there are many examples to choose from, seeing as how you have insinuated it's a common occurance (by using the phrase... "i expected as much" )....I'm just asking you to point them out....shouldn't be that difficult seeing as how apparantly I do so often as to merit it as "expected" behavior.

Present your case or withdraw your comment. That's a fair request...yea?
absolutely it is. First of all, the many examples to choose from include your history. I don't have the effort to go seek this out but you know we've had disputes in the past. However in THIS particular thread, here are the bullshit exaggerations by YOU:

-A- that Toronto's system wins "by a landslide". When the situation is not that simple.

-B-
Quote:
"Vancouver's Transit downtown is just as good as in Toronto"

Yea sure...downtown Toronto is serviced by 18 subway stations ( 21 if you count the three double stations)...11 LRT routes ( 2 of which are ROW)...and a few bus routes. Not to mention the massive transit hub which is Union Station (subway, LRT, commuter train, commuter bus and VIA). That one building will see more transit passengers than the whole Skytrain.

And you really believe Vancouver has that kind of downtown transit coverage?
Two bullshit exaggerations here:

1) calling the streetcar an LRT

2) Focusing ONLY on the subway. Vancouver's downtown is much smaller in area than toronto's and doesn't NEED subway coverage. However it has extensive coverage by bus, trolley bus, and community shuttles.



-C-
Your whole post about streetcars. Buddy I was born in a city that has the most streetcar routes and distances than any other city in the world (St. petersburg, russia). And you're exaggerating many things:

- how much of a superior ride they are. What makes them a more superior ride than a bus?
- how more environmentally friendly they are. What makes them more environmentally friendly than a trolley?
- How long it takes to clear an accident. It can take hours.
- How much cheaper they are. What makes them cheaper?

Don't get me wrong. I love streetcars and am looking forward to the streetcar project in Vancouver. But you're still bullshitly exaggerating

And of course:
Quote:
everyone loves a streetcar...and everybody generally hates a bus.
Spoken like a man who never takes transit. I would agree that Many people would prefer a streetcar over a bus. But Everybody hating buses? What is that crap? Lies.



Okay? Satisfied, KGB?


Quote:
"So, the same 2.5 million people are more spread out. Again - obviously, we both understand that. AS SUCH, there is less of a need of a subway system as large as Toronto's, or a streetcar system as large as toronto's. Because in Toronto more people are contained to a smaller area, while in Vancouver they're all spread out a bit more, so that's simple enough. AS SUCH, when one considers what makes a system Better, one has to consider what makes it better FOR that city. ie - is Toronto's TTC better for Toronto than Vancouver's Translink is for the GVRD."

Sorry...I'm still trying to figure out why the phrase "AS SUCH" merits the accentuation it has...don't get it...oh well...let's carry on.
hahahaha. Sorry. I sometimes tend to capitalize words or phrases when in my mind i place emphasis on them. Sometimes it comes out looking foolishly like it did here.

Quote:
Your arguement is a bit of a cart-before-the-horse scenario. Taken to it's ultimate conclusion, you would conclude that some sprawling hell with little or no transit service at all is even better than Toronto's, because it's serves the transit needs of it's population perfectly (as in they don't need or want any at all).
Good point. But now we're talking about extremes. However that's actually kind of my point.

let's say there's some tiny town with 500 people and one main street, and ONE form of transit - a bus that runs back and forth. Let's call it Hicksville. If somebody was stupid enough to start a thread saying "Who has better transit - Hicksville or Toronto?", I'd be saying Hicksville. Not because the system is so much better but because in this case all that matters is relative to the city's needs.

The comparison of Vancouver vs. Toronto in transit systems isn't THAT farfetched but it's still far enough apart that I say we cannot compare the systems head to head and HAVE to take into account the city's needs.

Quote:
You don't design transit to serve the built form....you design the built form to serve transit. If the design of the built form does not take transit into consideration as one of it's main planning features, then it it has already failed. If all you can do is try to play catch-up later by trying to fit in a transit system to serve a built form that wasn't designed for it, you end up with a very inneficient transit system. And the whole idea behind transit is efficiency in the first place.
Ummm........WHAT? By that logic if you're establishing a new town, you should start by building a subway system with 5 lines and 70 stations. And then design the city and build it around the subway? WHAT???? No....

I mean if that is the case then why are you and people like Wally dissing the RAV line for going through low density neighborhoods. Shouldn't you assume, if you use your own logic, that eventually the high rise development will come around the stations just like it has around stations on the Expo and ME lines?

Seems like you can't have it both ways. Either rapid transit lines have to be built through high-density neighborhoods when they are needed, or they have to be built through low-density neighborhoods which are then densified.

(And by the way, you're wrong Wally. The city council WILL approve re-zoning. They're simply not doing it now because otherwise they'd have to hear about yet more whining from the NIMBYS. This not an issue, tho, since the re-zoning doesn't need to come for another 5 years)

Quote:
Same scenario...and like almost every city, Vancouver got rid of it's streetcar system. And like most cities, have learned in retrospect that it probably was not a good idea.
hindsight is 20/20. I agree with you tho.


Quote:
"Both cities have extensive extremely good bus coverage"


Well, there you go making statements that give the impression that they are equal in some way. And that simply isn't true. Not only is the average walking distance to a transit stop much less in Toronto, the frequency of service is better (in fact it has an extensive 24hr service as well), the ridership is higher, the cost efficiency is higher, and intigration with the rest of the transit system is better. So just looking at a transit route map is no indication about which system is "better"....or "better suited" as you seem to want to emphisize.
Interesting. Could you provide some source for this "frequency of service is better" claim? As well as the average walking distance thing?

Finally please provide a little more detail about just how "extensiv" this 24hr service is. Vancouver has ~10 routes that are 24 hours as well.


Quote:
"Vancouverites are going off as if Toronto is complete shit and that Vancouver can kick it's ass. While Torontonians are going off as if Vancouver is a one horse town and has a horrible good-for-nothing system."


Since I'm not advocating either of those theories, I'm still wondering why my name is singled out as doing so?
see above.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 06:57 PM   #95
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The subway doesn't service only downtown... . And it serves the purpose of bringing people from the outer areas of the city to the core, not just getting people living in downtown around. That's why the first line was built - so that people in the north could get downtown easily. And really, the subway does not cover downtown very well, the rest is covered by streetcars and buses.

The ride really is better on a streetcar - it's A LOT smoother.
What? A trolley IS a streetcar. I believe you're referring to a trolley BUS.

The Blue Night Service covers much of the city. Looking at the map, it looks as though it has excellent coverage. Not servicing just one area of the city.

All but ONE surface route connects to a subway station. Unless somebody lived in the deapths of some massive residential area with not PT service in it, they would't have to walk very far.

Unfortunately, the vancouver region's geography and regional layout is much more complicated than Toronto's (and that of the GTA as well), so - going on your example, Toronto has the better service.

YES! We're arguing now.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:17 PM   #96
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I posted this in the VancouverTransit forum and didn't get one responce which rreally surprised me.
Toronto has the better system but even if Vancouver were to TRIPLE or evne QUADRUPLE its rapid transit length it will never get TTC ridership levels. This is because for Vancouver its an "L.A." thing.
In eastern cities Tor/Mon/Ott and even to a lesser extent Calgary, transit is seen as a viable option. The rich, poor, suburban, urban..........its socially acceptable to take transit. In Vancouver its considered only a last resort thing. It has a real poor man's option. All most insulting to admit you take it while this is not the case in Toronto.
Even if you live right beside a SkyTrain you would be less likely to take it if you lived right beside a subway if you had a car.
Vancouverites are always saying they are Canada's L.A..............I think this applies to transit usuage as well. In Vancouver it will always be seen as a poor man's mode.

I was surprised I didn't get any comment on this in the other thread. I'm curious as to what people think? Am I the only one who thinks this?
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:21 PM   #97
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Looking at the translink map of vancouver's city center, it looks as though half of the peninsula isn't covered. That is, does anybody live on the other half? Maybe they just forgot it... But I am impressed with the rest of the city coverage. Looks quite decent. And the website looks a lot better too...bastards..
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:43 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addisonwesley
Looking at the translink map of vancouver's city center, it looks as though half of the peninsula isn't covered. That is, does anybody live on the other half? Maybe they just forgot it... But I am impressed with the rest of the city coverage. Looks quite decent. And the website looks a lot better too...bastards..
The other half you're talking about is Vancouver West and it'll be served by rapid transit by extending the M-Line SkyTrain going underground west to Arbutus (that's about an 7-8 km extension with 8 stations) but that's just half way to the end of the peninsuala. The rest of the line, to UBC, will be done by via rapid bus. The Arbutus terminus will be a transit hub for the future Arbutus streetcar line, buses, trolleys, rapid bus, and of course SkyTrain.

Translink is already planning for this, it'll probably start right after the Olympics.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:51 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npinguy
(And by the way, you're wrong Wally. The city council WILL approve re-zoning. They're simply not doing it now because otherwise they'd have to hear about yet more whining from the NIMBYS. This not an issue, tho, since the re-zoning doesn't need to come for another 5 years)
How do you know that? Please elaborate how you can predict the future.

[QUOTE=renthefinn][QUOTE=Wally]And given that its current form is influenced solely by the creme de la creme, then its a bad system.
Quote:

So which is it? The creme de la creme are bad, or the poor cambie merchant's deserve better, they're the one's that determined RAV's current form, and now are upset by it.
The creme de la creme are bad because they expect the entire region to pay for their tunneling. Other cities wanted their Skytrain lines hidden from view as well but for some reason, as well as West Vancouver wanted the Sea to Sky Highway buried for environmental reasons. All of them did not get their wish because its cheaper to build above ground but for some reason, the Westside creme de la creme has dictatorial powers when it comes to the RAV Line and expects everyone else in the GVRD to pay for their stupid wishes.

As far as Cambie, they did not get what they want because they wanted bored tunneling, which is less intrusive. Cut and cover is disastrious to any business along the route unless they are compensated. For some reason, RAVCO does not want to compensate them. When Portland built the MAX LRT, the affected businesses were compensated in one form or another like tax breaks and vouchers for construction workers to patronize their shops. Now that MAX is built, their businesses are thriving even more. Note that part of the reason is because the LRT is in street level where people can see the shops.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:53 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
How do you know that? Please elaborate how you can predict the future.
Same goes for how you can predict that RAV will be a doomsday project.
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