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Old July 23rd, 2005, 08:58 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
Same goes for how you can predict that RAV will be a doomsday project.
Easy. The numbers are way optomistic, Richmond is not a growth area, as pointed out, there is no guarantee Vancouver will densify the Cambie Corridor (note that in the Northeast region, Port Moody and Coquitlam have densified and continue to densify the LRT route even further), and the contract passes the risks to the GVRD taxpayers if performance targets, which are beyond the control of the Translink Board, is not met in target for the next 35 years. The additional cost on the double tracking is one of many additional costs the RAV Line will incur to the region. Critics pointed those out earlier and they are materializing.

The main difference between you, me and npinguy is I back my arguments reasonably.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 09:37 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Easy. The numbers are way optomistic, Richmond is not a growth area, as pointed out, there is no guarantee Vancouver will densify the Cambie Corridor (note that in the Northeast region, Port Moody and Coquitlam have densified and continue to densify the LRT route even further), and the contract passes the risks to the GVRD taxpayers if performance targets, which are beyond the control of the Translink Board, is not met in target for the next 35 years. The additional cost on the double tracking is one of many additional costs the RAV Line will incur to the region. Critics pointed those out earlier and they are materializing.

The main difference between you, me and npinguy is I back my arguments reasonably.
As usual Wally, you're pessimistic. Maybe we should be calling this Classic Wally. Employment in downtown Vancouver and Richmond is expected to increase by 23 percent and 70 percent, respectively, by 2021. About 500,000 people travel daily between downtown Vancouver, central Richmond and the Vancouver International Airport along Main, Cambie, Oak and Granville streets. About 26,000 people now work on Sea Island at the Airport, a number that is expected to climb to 40,000 by 2021. The Cambie buses particularly the trolleys, ridership of 26,000, will be replaced with RAV. The 98 B-Line on No.3 road/Granville will be replaced by the RAV and this rapid bus line serves 40,000 daily. Don't forget the 30,000 who use the Main Street buses and the many thousands more on Oak. The numbers do add up and many will be using RAV, a faster way of commute, instead of buses......on top of that there's RAV's initial ridership growth as people will be attracted to this rapid line, not on a slow slow LRT line. Vancouverites want a tunnel/elevated line, not LRT.....polls show that and there's no need for a regional wide referendum. The numbers 90,000-110,000 in 2009 are practicle reasonable, they're not "way too optimistic." If anything, you're pessmistic. Ridership will also grow another 50,000 by 2021 (150,000/day).

You don't even live in Vancouver anymore, why are you even caring about this so much? Your knowledge on the city and on how people are thinking is outdated, sorry to say. You may read the Sun and the Province but that's hardly enough to make an educated opinion.

The city is planning to densify the Oakridge area and that has the potential of turning into another Metrotown boom. Npinguy's theory on the city densifying the corridor 2-5 years into construction is reasonable. Is it not reasonable to think that the city is shutting their mouth for now to avoid NIMBY's from making a scene?

You make it sound like RAV won't have at least 100,000 passengers by 2044. This ain't a doomsday project and to be very conservative or pessimistic in thinking would be that RAV won't meet ridership targets for the first 4-5 years, not 35 years......2010, it'll have 75,000; 2011, 82,000; 2012, 90,000; 2013, 96,000; 2014, 100,000+. If this happens, sure Translink will pay for the operational deficit but the long-term gains for both Translink and transit in the region will be huge. That's reasonable conservative and pessimistic thinking.

Double-tracking the line now and possibly installing turnstiles in now is a good idea for the long-term, for efficiency reasons and future cost reasons. It'll cost tens of millions more to do this after the line is built.

You may think you're backing your arguments reasonable but the fact is that you're backing it up with outdated facts and uneducated opinions.
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Last edited by mr.x; July 23rd, 2005 at 09:42 PM.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 09:42 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
You may think you're backing your arguments reasonable but the fact is that you're backing it up with outdated facts and uneducated opinions.
You are the one who has uneducated opinion, saying streetcar is not LRT.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 09:49 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Other cities wanted their Skytrain lines hidden from view as well but for some reason, as well as West Vancouver wanted the Sea to Sky Highway buried for environmental reasons. All of them did not get their wish because its cheaper to build above ground but for some reason
Actually, I'm pretty sure it was largely because West Vancouver already had a plan to develop the area into more exclusive homes, and the open option would effectively end any chance of that ever happening. However, you're definitely right about Campbell's Liberals picking the right choice and shutting out these annoying creme de la cremes. Even though the NIMBYs were loyal BC Liberal supporters ( & I bet they still are, since the NDP alternative is far from appealing), the province ended up choosing the common-sense, tax-dollar saving alternative.

The NIMBY movement on North Shore is so strong it's ridiculous.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 09:52 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doady
You are the one who has uneducated opinion, saying streetcar is not LRT.
That's because it's not LRT, at least for Toronto. For most of it, it goes into regular street vehicle traffic and it doesn't have its own right of way. I know that on some parts, it does have its ROW but just because that most of it doesn't, it's not LRT. If anything, streetcar is "light LRT". LRT is fast and has its own space. Having said that though, streetcars are better than buses and trolleys.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 09:55 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x

Maybe we should be calling this Classic Wally. Employment in downtown Vancouver and Richmond is expected to increase by 23 percent and 70 percent, respectively, by 2021. About 500,000 people travel daily between downtown Vancouver, central Richmond and the Vancouver International Airport along Main, Cambie, Oak and Granville streets. About 26,000 people now work on Sea Island at the Airport, a number that is expected to climb to 40,000 by 2021. The Cambie buses particularly the trolleys, ridership of 26,000, will be replaced with RAV. The 98 B-Line on No.3 road/Granville will be replaced by the RAV and this rapid bus line serves 40,000 daily.
Don't forget the 30,000 who use the Main Street buses and the many thousands more on Oak. The numbers do add up and many will be using RAV, a faster way of commute, instead of buses......on top of that there's RAV's initial ridership growth as people will be attracted to this rapid line, not on a slow slow LRT line. Vancouverites want a tunnel/elevated line, not LRT.....polls show that and there's no need for a regional wide referendum. The numbers 90,000-110,000 in 2009 are practicle reasonable, they're not "way too optimistic." If anything, you're pessmistic. Ridership will also grow another 50,000 by 2021 (150,000/day).
Who the hell are you to say that my facts are outdated and uneducated?

I've seen this post so many times in Vancouver Transport before and yet still have no proof or links to back it up. Also, isn't the downtown area not having much commercial land available because of resortification? Hence how can employment grow by 70%? Sites reserved for offices are being used up for residential projects like crazy while the employment growth has occured in the suburbs, many which are not accessible by rapid transit.

Why should the rest of the region pay for Vancouver's tunnel then? Its not necessary, its just a preference. And why shouldn't there be a referendum? In the US, mega projects are voted upon so taxpayers won't have a reason to whine if they don't use it. Its the only democratic process. Its a matter of principle. At least Vancouver's mayor held the Olympic referendum to see if the people of Vancouver truly wants it.

I care because I have a genuine interest in urban planning and Vancouver's urban planning is a joke! Its an open forum where people's opinions are welcomed so if you have a problem with that, then its your problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
That's because it's not LRT, at least for Toronto. For most of it, it goes into regular street vehicle traffic and it doesn't have its own right of way. I know that on some parts, it does have its ROW but just because that most of it doesn't, it's not LRT. If anything, streetcar is "light LRT". LRT is fast and has its own space. Having said that though, streetcars are better than buses and trolleys.
LRT means LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT. So if a rail transit system does not use heavy vehicles, it is therefore Light Rail Transit! A streetcar is obviously a light vehicle in terms of weight in relation to, say a freight train or a large subway car and because it is rail based and is a transit mode, therefore it is a LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT! Same with Skytrain...

Last edited by [email protected]; July 23rd, 2005 at 10:02 PM.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 09:55 PM   #107
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So I guess the arguing has died...that sucks. lol
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 10:25 PM   #108
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Quote:
Who the hell are you to say that my facts are outdated and uneducated? You are only 12 and simply do not have the educated knowledge to judge such things. Even your buddy npinguy pointed that out!
Judging from what you have said, you definetely are uneducated. Sometimes you still even say that the Arbutus corridor is an option, even when hardly anybody uses that corridor there! and that corridor isn't dense except for two parts, Kerrisdale and maybe Broadway. Streetcar on Arbutus is practicle, not LRT....the streetcar will act as an light alternative to RAV.



Quote:
I've seen this post so many times in Vancouver Transport before and yet still have no proof or links to back it up. Also, isn't the downtown area not having much commercial land available because of resortification? Hence how can employment grow by 70%? Sites reserved for offices are being used up for residential projects like crazy while the employment growth has occured in the suburbs, many which are not accessible by rapid transit.
The proof is located at the Translink, GVRD and RAV websites. I know this for heart.

70%? You read it wrong. I said 70 percent for Richmond and 23 percent for downtown.

RAV is also in the plans of GVRD Livable Strategic Plan and in that plan, they didn't plan for LRT but for the tunnel/elevated technology RAV currently has.



Quote:
Why should the rest of the region pay for Vancouver's tunnel then? Its not necessary, its just a preference. And why shouldn't there be a referendum? In the US, mega projects are voted upon so taxpayers won't have a reason to whine if they don't use it. Its the only democratic process. Its a matter of principle. At least Vancouver's mayor held the Olympic referendum to see if the people of Vancouver truly wants it.
I've always said that tunnel south of Queen Elizabeth Park (QE to Marine Drive) is unecessary and that's a 6-7 kilometres. However, tunnel from Waterfront to King Edward is definetely necessary otherwise you're left with two vehicle traffic lanes gone: you'll have nothing but congestion as seen with what has happened with No.3 road when they took two lanes away and turned them into bus lanes for the 98 B-Line.

Unlike RAV, public support for the Olympics was a close 50-50 or a 60-50 in favour according to polls. A referendum was needed. With RAV, you're seeing numbers between 75-85 percent in favour. Referendums are expensive and necessary only when margins are close.



Quote:
I care because I have a genuine interest in urban planning and Vancouver's urban planning is a joke! Its an open forum where people's opinions are welcomed so if you have a problem with that, then its your problem.
and I do have a problem. You act like you still live in Vancouver and your opinions reflect that. It's nothing but outdated views and outdated facts. Feel free to post your opinions but like what most people would do, they wouldn't stick their heads up so high.



Quote:
LRT means LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT. So if a rail transit system does not use heavy vehicles, it is therefore Light! A streetcar is obviously a light vehicle and because it is rail based and is a transit mode and because the vehicle itself is LIGHT in relation to that of, say a freight train or a large subway car, therefore it is a LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT! Same with Skytrain...
I refer LRT as Light Rapid Transit, not Light Rail Transit. Sure, it may have rails and uses light cars but it's definetely not rapid. This streetcar sits in traffic. What Toronto has is a bus trolley with rails. It's not LRT.

SkyTrain has its own ROW and is actually rapid.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 10:34 PM   #109
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Hmm. I'm an engineer. You are a 12 year old. Who among us is uneducated. You are known to take other people's post and the administrator of the Vancouver Transport Forum has pointed out that you do make up half your numbers!

As far as LRT as Light Rapid Transit, that is just a term Translink invented. LRT means LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT! This is a universal accepted fact in the transit world. And if properly planned, it can be just as fast or even faster than Skytrain! Why? Because Skytrain is a form of LRT, and so are the elevated systems you find in other cities (e.g. Bangkok's system).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x

I've always said that tunnel south of Queen Elizabeth Park (QE to Marine Drive) is unecessary and that's a 6-7 kilometres. However, tunnel from Waterfront to King Edward is definetely necessary otherwise you're left with two vehicle traffic lanes gone: you'll have nothing but congestion as seen with what has happened with No.3 road when they took two lanes away and turned them into bus lanes for the 98 B-Line.
Tunneling north of Queen E Park is unnecessary as well. Only downtown requires the tunnel. But anywhere south of Broadway should be elevated!
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 10:54 PM   #110
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>>Vancouver has more frequency; TTC doesn't have 1 min 30 secs for rush hour<<

Wrong. TTC subway has rush hour frequency of 90 seconds. SkyTrain has rush hour frequency of 106 seconds. And on average, when considering all routes of all forms, TTC has much better frequency.
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 10:59 PM   #111
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EHH?
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 11:07 PM   #112
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Quote:
Hmm. I'm an engineer. You are a 12 year old. Who among us is uneducated. You are known to take other people's post and the administrator of the Vancouver Transport Forum has pointed out that you do make up half your numbers!
Sure, whatever you say.



Quote:
As far as LRT as Light Rapid Transit, that is just a term Translink invented. LRT means LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT! This is a universal accepted fact in the transit world. And if properly planned, it can be just as fast or even faster than Skytrain! Why? Because Skytrain is a form of LRT, and so are the elevated systems you find in other cities (e.g. Bangkok's system).
I just did a Google search and found a whole ton of people and transit systems calling themselves Light Rapid Transit. It's not just Translink.




Quote:
Tunneling north of Queen E Park is unnecessary as well. Only downtown requires the tunnel. But anywhere south of Broadway should be elevated!
You've completely ignored my argument and the No.3 road example. Reducing two lanes would mean nothing but congestion on Cambie as seen on No.3.



Quote:
>>Vancouver has more frequency; TTC doesn't have 1 min 30 secs for rush hour<<

Wrong. TTC subway has rush hour frequency of 90 seconds. SkyTrain has rush hour frequency of 106 seconds. And on average, when considering all routes of all forms, TTC has much better frequency.
Every Vancouverite knows their own system has a rush hour frequency of 90 secs.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


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Old July 24th, 2005, 12:30 AM   #113
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OK, OK

Yes TTC streetcars are LRT like CTrain but in NA ussually LRT does refer to RAPID transit. Not so much in Europe but when people say streetcar it ussually means they are referring to streetlevel rail that is not grade separated.

Just as TECHNICALLY much of the Spadina line is not subway because it is atgrade or elevated like down the AllenExp, it is still called a subway just as SkyTrain is still referred to that eventhough it is underground downtown.

For the sake of argument so we know what were talking about lets just assume what most people in NA do, that LRT refers to a rapid rail transit line.
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Old July 24th, 2005, 12:34 AM   #114
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As much as I think RAV is far to expensive for what it will serve I think the same can be said for the Spadina/York ext. $ 1.5bil for 6km is outrageous especially when we all know that it is for the most part a point to point line ie, YorkU.

Looks like the TTC is building its own version of RAV.
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Old July 24th, 2005, 01:34 AM   #115
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Construction costs are really high at the moment. I wonder how much it would have been if it were built say ten years ago.
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Old July 24th, 2005, 02:09 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73
Construction costs are really high at the moment. I wonder how much it would have been if it were built say ten years ago.
The 1990s RAV project costed $500 million.
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Old July 24th, 2005, 03:42 AM   #117
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SkyTrain has peak hour frequency, on average, of 106 seconds. They considered improving it to 90 seconds, but decided against it.
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Old July 24th, 2005, 04:32 AM   #118
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No demand for it yet perhaps. I can wait another 16 seconds.
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Old July 24th, 2005, 05:55 AM   #119
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What the heck is RAV?
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Old July 24th, 2005, 06:00 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon jon
SkyTrain has peak hour frequency, on average, of 106 seconds. They considered improving it to 90 seconds, but decided against it.
I think I saw somewhere saying that they used about 94% of all available trains during peak hours... and the maximum value stated for the system is 88%. (which means that there is not enough trains to improve the frequency to 90s, unless all the 4-cars MKII trains are reconfigured into 2-cars MKII trains.)

I'm sure that the frequency will be improved to probably 90s or better when 34 new MKII trains arrived in 2007-08 or earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber73
No demand for it yet perhaps. I can wait another 16 seconds.
The system is running at 99% capacity between Main and Broadway... I guess there IS demand...
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