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Old July 27th, 2005, 08:44 AM   #161
ssiguy2
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meanwhile back at the forum..........

Is no one in Toronto questioning the reason for tunnelling to YorkU? Its point to point travel.
The TTC finally may get some money and its going to go all to hell.
I'm not sure if I'm bewildered or just plain infuriated.

If this goes thru then I never want to hear any bitching from Toronto people about RAV. Atleast they are getting 28km out of it.
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Old July 27th, 2005, 11:22 AM   #162
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lol - I don't know who to bitch at. I don't even know who's paying for it, well obviously not that TTC. All I know is I'd like work started on the Eglinton West subway again, or the Downtown Relief Line.
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Old July 27th, 2005, 09:57 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
"I have said you exaggerate, I have provided reasons for this. You have responded to them but not thoroughly enough to properly justify your exaggerations."


Actually, you refered to me as a "bullshitting exaggerator" (which I assume must be worse than your run-of-the-mill exaggerator).

I simply asked you to provide evidence of this or retract.

You have provided NO evidence of it at all.

So quit this dancing around and be a grown up and retract.






KGB
i've already provided evidence for it. i do not need to repeat myself.
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Old July 28th, 2005, 03:33 AM   #164
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^ Umm, I must have missed that. Can you post your "evidence" again? Just for reference, we're not saying you did not provide it at all but I am dying to know what it is that you define as "evidence"....
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Old July 28th, 2005, 05:37 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB
Well, I would afford you the same courtesy of questioning accusations against you without calling it bickering.





KGB
What else can I do? Nobody answered my question. I'll ask again. Why is the cost so high on that 6km extension?
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Old July 28th, 2005, 05:47 AM   #166
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^
Yes, I agree.
Why is it so expensive. The Sheppard line was 6km but "only" $800mil.
Inflation is going up by 2% year. I know building materials are up but at the same time YorkU is providing a ROW. Something is not right in the state of Denmark.
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Old July 28th, 2005, 06:41 AM   #167
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Yeah, I wonder why construction cost going up so much faster than inflation.

I thought construction cost for the Coquitlam Skytrain extension back in 2001 was estimated at $500mil... and now if it uses skytrain technology, it'll cost $1 to ~1.3billions. That's double in 5 years?

If it keeps up with this rate, it would be soon that no city can afford to even build a LRT...
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Old July 28th, 2005, 07:30 AM   #168
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The construction costs are going up because stuff like steal is in demand here. Something to do with China hording material I think. There is just so much damn development going on right now as well, so that would create more demand. I'm just guessing here.
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Old July 28th, 2005, 09:00 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
meanwhile back at the forum..........

Is no one in Toronto questioning the reason for tunnelling to YorkU? Its point to point travel.
The TTC finally may get some money and its going to go all to hell.
I'm not sure if I'm bewildered or just plain infuriated.

If this goes thru then I never want to hear any bitching from Toronto people about RAV. Atleast they are getting 28km out of it.
At the risk of getting caught in the crossfire here I'll submit my best guess as to why the York U extension is underground.

Running underground allows the line to be built directly from Downsview without the need to follow the winding streets above ground. The shortest route between two points is a straight line isn't it? Running north along Dufferin would run into a ravine and possible problems with the G. Ross Lord Reservoir. Chesswood is too narrow and too circuitous road to follow. Keele was the only viable road for which to tunnel under if an existing ROW was to be selected.

Downsview station is already situated at the northeast end of the former Downsview Airport, most of the route would be running through an existing industrial area. I don't think that the businesses along the route would be too happy about being evicted or having their properties sliced up to run a street-level subway. Most of these industries are factories and warehouses which need the large amounts of land which they sit on. Leading to another point, where would the portal be located if the line were at grade?

The increased price may have to deal with boring the tunnels deep enough so as not to disturb the businesses above during construction. The existing Bradford GO line which also sees some freight would have to be crossed over or under as well. There was the option of running parallel to the railway tracks, however that alignment would serve very few people en route to York U.

The line also crosses a pipeline (natural gas I believe) running under the Finch Hydro corridor. I'm not sure how deep the line is. Running an elevated line would be tricky through the hydro corridor with people complaining about exposure to electro-magnetic fields generated by the lines.

A bit more far-fetched but possibly logical, building underground reduces the chances of weather-related delays in the winter. Granted the line is open from Eglinton West to Downsview, but then shuttle buses could bridge the gap if needed. If the line were built in the open, York U students as well as any future York Region users would be stuck with what currently exists now in terms of bus service to the nearest available subway.

In order to get to York without interfering with businesses, facilities (rail/hydro/gas corrridors) and to serve as many people along the route (Finch/Keele neighbourhood, new GO station also serving industrial area) it would have to underground, otherwise the line would need to do a lot of ducking and weaving, which would probably cost more as the length would increase. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but any or all of these reasons could be why the York U extension is being built underground.
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Old July 28th, 2005, 09:07 AM   #170
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"i've already provided evidence for it."


Any of those excuses you listed were soundly proven false.

I'm not gonna bore everyone to death or keep harping on it....you made specific personal accusations which you were unable to back up when you were called on it. You can still hate me all you like, but on this one, you've screwed the pooch I'm afraid. Better luck next time.









"What else can I do? Nobody answered my question. I'll ask again. Why is the cost so high on that 6km extension? "


Well, subway costs increase exponentially based on a lot more than just track length and inflation/increased costs.







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Old July 28th, 2005, 06:03 PM   #171
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I know that but at this price they can do better.
The ridership increase will not be great. It doesn't really go under a main drag so this is point-to-point travel.
Even when it hits YorkU the ridership level increase will not be near enouugh to justify the cost. YorkU is a major transit terminal and employer but most of that travel comes from east/west and York region. This does nothing for them.
This will be such a waste of money it will inhibit funds for real needs like Sheppard/Eglinton/DR.
How the hell does it cost that much when RAV is $1.7bil but is 28km of which 11 are underground.
This is highway {or subway} robbery!
Screw the proposal, kill the city, and lynch the TTC.
Before I said I was not sure I was bewildered or livid.......well now I know its the later.
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Old July 28th, 2005, 07:24 PM   #172
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"at this price they can do better. "


Really? Are you sure? Do you sit around wondering why you are here nattering on a chat forum instead of charging major bucks as a transit consultant?

Sorry...had to take a jab. he he


The projected costs are what they are...you really can't compare RAV installation in suburban Vancouver with subway building in Toronto...it's not like they try to make it cost more for the sake of it.

And you are contradicting yourself a bit...on one hand you criticize surface routes that violate the usual successful Toronto subway building eddict, yet you criticize the York extension for not being proper Toronto underground subway.

I agree that the York extension is probably not the #1 route priority as far as the City of Toronto is concerned....but I only wish it was that simple. The major buzz around transit in the greater scheme of things (federally and provincially) is about increasing suburban transit...Toronto is already very transit-oriented. The York extension addresses the 905 far more than any of the other routes....and this is why it will be easier to bring in provincial and federal capital. This is just the way it is....we have to accept that there is no one priority attitude surrounding this. The York line not only addresses an existing need...it also makes for greater 905 ridership on TTC...combined with a new GO hub and the fact that this is Toronto...and ridership between Downsview and York is a real possibility.

Other smaller advantages will also come from this...closer subway and GO access in that area will help the crunch on the Yonge line at Finch. It will also open up possibilities for future expansions to serve a 416/905 need....specifically a Steeles line to run between York and Yonge...and possibly Don Mills to serve a new north-south route in the east end.

Steeles is the perfect route to serve both the 905 and 416 without screwing the TTC.





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Old July 28th, 2005, 10:27 PM   #173
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There have been huge increases for both systems:

Sheppard heavy rail: 6km - $800 million (quoting above figure, if correct) - $133.33M/km
Millennium Line Skytrain mini-metro - 20 km - $1.167 billion (from M-Line project website) - $58.35M/km

York U heavy rail - 6 km - $1.5 billion (quoting above figure, if correct) - $250M/km - 87.5% increase
RAV mini-metro - 19 km - $1.72 billion (from Canada.com news article) - $90.52M/km - 55.1% increase (although half the line is underground)
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Last edited by officedweller; July 28th, 2005 at 10:33 PM.
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Old July 29th, 2005, 05:55 AM   #174
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As I have stated before its not the cost but cost-effectivness.
Ridership on the YorkU extention will not justify the money spent.
By the way KGB.......your right I have always agreed with underground subways for transit but have NOT for point to point travel which this is. In many ways this is just a YorkU express.
Also I have ALWAYS stated that I think subways should go atgrade or elevated thefurther out they get due to lower ridership levels & density.
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Old July 29th, 2005, 06:01 AM   #175
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The main dilemma is that the area around Downsview and YorkU is still pretty suburban, even more so than Cambie Street & area. It'll only develop once Downsview Park starts taking shape... as the Nation's first urban National Park, right now it's an utter embarrasment. I guess this is another example of the feds ripping off Toronto.

Its saving grace are 905 commuters living in Vaughan and Mississauga (though many in the 905 now work in suburban office parks outside of the subway network)
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Old July 29th, 2005, 07:24 AM   #176
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"I think subways should go atgrade or elevated thefurther out they get due to lower ridership levels & density"

That makes alot of sense.

The line is to serve the amount of people going in and out of YorkU, YorkU is the biggest traffic generator out of Downtown (CityTV), 1000+ buses Pass through YorkU on an average weekday.
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Old July 29th, 2005, 07:26 AM   #177
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ye right like you all know everything
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Old July 29th, 2005, 08:35 PM   #178
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i wonder why wally isn't writing essays about how these toronto subway extensions are unnecessary, too expensive, cater to the creme de la creme, will be underused, and all that jazz.
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Old July 29th, 2005, 09:31 PM   #179
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Even subways in London UK are at-grade once they leave the core.

BTW there was an editorial in the National Post slamming TO's subway system today.
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Old July 29th, 2005, 09:42 PM   #180
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"BTW there was an editorial in the National Post slamming TO's subway system today."


Oh my...the National Post being negative about Toronto....how uncharacteristic. ha ha ha





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