Oldham Thread

[scproductions]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

Also, regarding your comments about immigration - its funny how these topics always go the same way, with the same few people jumping from one tangent to the next, into one generic rant based on muslims, immigration, asylum seekers, terrorism, british culture in decine blah blah blah.

Immigrants dont come here and take jobs from uk-born people, they do jobs where uk companies cannot succesfully recruit. Its what keeps the ecoomy bouyant, inflation low and growth high. Companies have to actively recruit abroad to fill vacancies.

please move to oldham, as after a month you will see where i am coming from!

as i said... judging from afar is very different to experiencing the reality of it daily.

yes there are poor scruffy white areas filled with crime, but they are different to the asian areas. the residants of poor trashy white areas still integrate with other communities... asian communities isolate themselves from britain and try to create a "mini bangladesh". again i'm not being racist, i am merely voicing my opinions based on first hand experiences.

i recommend you watch this videos...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=keXSRDVHqic

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWu...elated&search=

[wiggleyleeds]

And I have read what Digby has had to say, maybe you should read what he has to say too, you might learn something, rather than taking a snippet of what was shown on sensationalist telydocumentary and blowing it out of proportion.

Here, read this by Digby Jones, the man you keep quoting:

"Pride and prejudice about immigration
By Sir Digby Jones
Last Updated: 11:36pm BST 19/08/2006

They come here - take our jobs, sponge off the state - wish they'd go home!" A familiar cry of ignorant prejudice but also an understandable feeling of insecurity in frightening times. Generalisations are dangerous.

"Immigration is a good thing" is no more accurate than "immigration is a bad thing". On one hand we are evidently more at risk from a terrorist outrage in the UK carried out by British-born people than by immigrants. An increase of 1 per cent in our population by immigration adds 1.5 per cent to our gross domestic product. No migrant from the EU accession states can claim state benefits until they have been here for 12 months - they must work or go home.

On the other hand, unchecked and unconditional immigration adds fuel to the fire of prejudice, strains public services and, when accompanied by incompetent Government handling of many of its consequences, makes politicians (dependent on voting sentiment) defensive.

It also risks permanently damaging one of the country's greatest assets. For around the world, the UK is seen as a tolerant and fair-minded place, increasing our stock of goodwill upon which business depends.

We are in many ways a bastard race, built up by different waves of immigration over the centuries. The City of London - now the pre-eminent financial centre in the world - was born out of eastern European Jewry escaping persecution, coming to a fair-minded (but not perfect) home and just getting on with it. French Huguenots, hounded for worshipping their God in a particular way, did wonders for our textile industry. We even relied on immigration for our royal family - every time we ran out, off we went to Europe and got another lot.

We do immigration well. Certainly not perfectly, but better than anywhere else I know. And business benefits hugely. Stop immigration and you stop building houses, schools, hospitals, roads and offices in the UK. If "they" were to "go home", you can forget this year's harvest in our fields. In a tourism industry that contributes some 8 per cent of the nation's wealth, 17 per cent of the workforce was not born in the UK.

Britain is wealthier because of immigration. Overall, 8 per cent of those in employment were not born in Britain, but these same people generate 10 per cent of the nation's income. And many are bright - 21 per cent of migrants have a degree compared with 17 per cent of the UK-born population.

The influx of east Europeans since 2004 has helped. Only the UK, Sweden and Ireland showed by their actions that they were true Europeans. Wasn't the EU meant to be about the free movement of goods (talk to the French about British beef), services (talk to the Germans about banks and insurers), capital (talk to the Spanish about overseas firms buying into their infrastructure companies) and labour?

Just like the French, we have a PPP - Polish Plumber Problem - it's just that we don't have enough of them. But since 2004 we've also taken on 11,500 care workers, 1,400 teachers and classroom assistants, 1,750 doctors and nurses and 5,700 bus drivers, all from eastern Europe.

It's about time we looked to our own failings in the world of work. You cannot blame a migrant for the fact that we don't have sufficient numbers of skilled British-born people to do the jobs. Half the kids who took GCSEs last year did not get grade C or above in English and Maths. One in five of the adult population in this country cannot read and write to the standard required of an 11-year-old.

You cannot blame a migrant for being prepared to work hard for the minimum wage. It is not the migrant's fault that so many in western Europe have become lazy, complacent and picky. We live in a world where China wants your lunch and India wants your dinner - and either work is done at competitive rates here or it's not done here at all.

We have a tight labour market in the UK and yet wage inflation has not been a problem. Immigrants are doing the work for less. If they were to leave the country, interest rates would probably rise to deal with the ensuing wage inflation. As a result, some economists estimate that the average mortgage in Britain would go up by as much as £500 a year.

People will always migrate to find a better, safer life. Immigration is here to stay. Developed countries can fight it and lose or turn it to their advantage and win. British business should be pleased that the UK starts ahead of the game.

Business must make the case for quality and controlled immigration. You will speak English, you will bring a skill, you will have a National Insurance number and participate in the transparent economy, pay tax and enjoy the protection of employment and health & safety legislation. The colour of your skin or the God you worship doesn't matter.

Play by these rules and this fair-minded country will welcome you. Come here, work hard, help create wealth - and show us up for what we are becoming: lazy, poorly skilled and complacent, often using "immigration is a bad thing" as an excuse for our own inadequacies.

The world does not owe us a living - the world is our living."

source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...0/ccimmi20.xml

[skyhigh247]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

skyhigh247 get of your high horse. My comments were responses to some of the posts in here. No one said my replies were directed specifically you at you.

However, with reference to immigration, you say plumbers are being off-loaded. Good! Its a globalised economy. If they are overcharging and demanding too high wages, the balance will equalise.

LOL yeah they do charge a lot!! Because builders are taken on contract by contract, for example, like the big constructions in the city centre etc, or house builders, they see a chance of making bigger profits by having foreign builders, plumbers, plasterers etc etc despite not dropping their prices. The immigrant workers get more than the minimum wage which is still way above what they are used to, but way below what British workers get paid. It all started at the peak of construction boom when there was a shortage of British builders etc etc. Then they realised how much money they could save and it's esculated thus making it hard for many of these and other types of workers to find work in this country, becuase of immigrant workers. Or should i say migrant workers. The head of the CBI has been warning the government, but as usual they bury their heads in the sand, storing up future problems. A bit like Gordon Brown has done with the pensions and Tony Blair with PPI schools.

[skyhigh247]

I listened to what he said recently in a tv interview and that is what is important. It's now August 2007, not August 2006. Newspapers edit what they want, that's why i don't read them. When you listen to live broadcasts, then you'll get the facts. You should have heard him on Question Time about the problem NHS workers face because of foreign workers taking our jobs.

[wiggleyleeds]

Originally Posted by scproductions

please move to oldham, as after a month you will see where i am coming from!

as i said... judging from afar is very different to experiencing the reality of it daily.

yes there are poor scruffy white areas filled with crime, but they are different to the asian areas. the residants of poor trashy white areas still integrate with other communities... asian communities isolate themselves from britain and try to create a "mini bangladesh". again i'm not being racist, i am merely voicing my opinions based on first hand experiences.

deprived pakistani descent communities isolate themselves no more so than deprived white council estates communities. Deprived white council areas are can equally be insular, backwards, with tribal mentality. The people in these council areas refuse to integrate into main stream society, with high incideces of joblessness. They refuse to abide by british laws, with high ASBO rates, and joy riding and drug problems. They are intolerant and unfriendly to anyone who is diferent to them, and They have an us and them mentality (a bit like you).

You need to get out a bit more, and travel, and live in other places to get a real perspective, instead of basing everything on your primitive experiences in a grubby town thats full of crappy people like you - of whom everyone else moves out - and you wonder why investers dont invest in towns like oldham when its full of people with such a shitty mentality like u

[skyhigh247]

Would you dare to go up to a builder, plumber etc who finds it harder to get work in areas of the country as there has been a recent influx of cheaper foreign labour filling his boots, you wouldn't dare!! This has featured heavily on whistleblower investigations accross the tv network. It's not made up you know. You can pretend it's not real, but it's odd how all these reputable important people are coming forward with evidence.

[wiggleyleeds]

Originally Posted by skyhigh247

I listened to what he said recently in a tv interview and that is what is important. It's now August 2007, not August 2006. Newspapers edit what they want, that's why i don't read them. When you listen to live broadcasts, then you'll get the facts. You should have heard him on Question Time about the problem NHS workers face because of foreign workers taking our jobs.

The NHS issue is a specific fault of the government training too many doctors at the same time as bringing in more NHS doctors from abroad to cope with demand - and then all at once, all these uk doctors graduate at the same time as the NHS makes massive cutbacks in staff. And your left with a logistics problem.

Using this whole template on the whole immigration idea is silly. Have u actually read the article i posted, because if you did u would realise how silly u sound. it takes 3 minutes to read, i dare u to

[wiggleyleeds]

Originally Posted by skyhigh247

Would you dare to go up to a builder, plumber etc who finds it harder to get work in areas of the country as there has been a recent influx of cheaper foreign labour filling his boots, you wouldn't dare!! This has featured heavily on whistleblower investigations accross the tv network. It's not made up you know. You can pretend it's not real, but it's odd how all these reputable important people are coming forward with evidence.

As said before, im quite happy for uk borm over priced plumbers to be pushed into competetiveness by cheaper more willing migrant labour. Have you ever head of a jobless plumber

[skyhigh247]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

deprived pakistani descent communities isolate themselves no more so than deprived white council estates communities. Deprived white council areas are can equally be insular, backwards, with tribal mentality. The people in these council areas refuse to integrate into main stream society, with high incideces of joblessness. They refuse to abide by british laws, with high ASBO rates, and joy riding and drug problems. They are intolerant and unfriendly to anyone who is diferent to them, and They have an us and them mentality (a bit like you).

You need to get out a bit more, and travel, and live in other places to get a real perspective, instead of basing everything on your primitive experiences in a grubby town thats full of crappy people like you - of whom everyone else moves out.

I've spent a lot of time in Burnley and Blackburn over the last 10 years as i have most of my friends their. Both towns are similar. Most of the white population just don't like any foreigners no matter what kind of people they are. That seems crazy to me coming from Manchester, but in these towns it's the norm and very concerning. You know it breeds tensions which takes little to set the 2 sides off. I have been suprised and shocked on many occasions at the comments people make out loud.

[skyhigh247]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

As said before, im quite happy for uk borm over priced plumbers to be pushed into competetiveness by cheaper more willing migrant labour. Have you ever head of a jobless plumber

Not overpriced, just the industry standard for that level of 'skilled' work. I'm not talking about dodgy plumbers who come to your house, i mean fully trained and time served skilled plumbers, builders, plasterers etc who have mortgages and families. Would you as a skilled worker expect bus driver money? I think not.

[wiggleyleeds]

im sorry but my uncle is a plumber and so are several other family members and they admit just how much its crazy money working in plumbing - which has largely been due to market force demand pushing up prices nothing else.

If your going to to try and talk about the ills of immigration u really need to find some others lines than this plumbing issue and the nhs fiasco. Even me, as someone who is pro-immigration, i can think of some much better examples lol

[spud]

as an oldhamer i'll try to answer some questions....

a NEW STADIUM in oldham as been on the cards for nearly 15 years now,the newish owners of the football club anounnced plans for a new 16,000 stadium for both the football & rugby league club about a year ago and i believe are close to submitting plans...but in recent months the new owner of the rugby league club has also been in talks with the council about building a dedicated rugby league stadium,nothing huge,something around 6k capacity but have room to expand..the RL club & council have met 4 times in less than 2-3 months to discuss the matter....whether the RL club's choice to find a new home will impact on whether boundary park gets redeveloped as yet to be raised as an issue from either parties..

right, the bus depot...i've heard that first buses might be moving out and a supermarket (adsa) buying the land for a superstore..interesting fact about the bus depot,it was the large brick built building in the world when constructed..

[cottonopolis]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

And I have read what Digby has had to say, maybe you should read what he has to say too, you might learn something, rather than taking a snippet of what was shown on sensationalist telydocumentary and blowing it out of proportion.

What absolute naive crap once again. Wiggley people like YOU scare me so much. I mean where does it end?? You´re so tolerant and "open minded" but in fifty to a hundred years when britons are becoming a minority and the majority have brought a culture so different to our own- will you still be clapping to your PC tune? When your kid´s kids can´t have christmas in school. When your wife has to wear a veil on the streets to avoid abuse. When freedom of speech is a thing of the past and religious critique comes with a death sentence. When the sense of national pride and togetherness is gone (all of course dirty right-wing words to you).. Will you still be clapping then?? Or will you only then see what a great mistake you made..

A response to your absolute disgustingly naive bias crappy article about the fairy tale of net economic benefit:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk

Economic Benefit?

The economic benefit from this inflow is very limited. Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth. It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare to work the 1.7 million unemployed and the 2.7 million on Incapacity Benefit. There are now 1.25 million young people under 25 in Britain who are not in work, in full-time education or training.

Are immigrants doing jobs the British will no longer do? No. In large parts of Britain where there are few, if any, immigrants. British people are doing all these jobs. The fundamental problem is the benefits trap. Wages are held down to a level where for some there is little benefit in working rather than collecting benefits. Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

[skyhigh247]

Originally Posted by spud

as an oldhamer i'll try to answer some questions....

a NEW STADIUM in oldham as been on the cards for nearly 15 years now,the newish owners of the football club anounnced plans for a new 16,000 stadium for both the football & rugby league club about a year ago and i believe are close to submitting plans...but in recent months the new owner of the rugby league club has also been in talks with the council about building a dedicated rugby league stadium,nothing huge,something around 6k capacity but have room to expand..the RL club & council have met 4 times in less than 2-3 months to discuss the matter....whether the RL club's choice to find a new home will impact on whether boundary park gets redeveloped as yet to be raised as an issue from either parties..

right, the bus depot...i've heard that first buses might be moving out and a supermarket (adsa) buying the land for a superstore..interesting fact about the bus depot,it was the large brick built building in the world when constructed..

Cheers for that Spud!!

[skyhigh247]

Originally Posted by cottonopolis

What absolute naive crap once again. Wiggley people like YOU scare me so much. I mean where does it end?? You´re so tolerant and "open minded" but in fifty to a hundred years when britons are becoming a minority and the majority have brought a culture so different to our own- will you still be clapping to your PC tune? When your kid´s kids can´t have christmas in school. When your wife has to wear a veil on the streets to avoid abuse. When freedom of speech is a thing of the past and religious critique comes with a death sentence. When the sense of national pride and togetherness is gone (all of course dirty right-wing words to you).. Will you still be clapping then?? Or will you only then see what a great mistake you made..

A response to your absolute disgustingly naive bias crappy article about the fairy tale of net economic benefit:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk

Economic Benefit?

The economic benefit from this inflow is very limited. Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth. It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare to work the 1.7 million unemployed and the 2.7 million on Incapacity Benefit. There are now 1.25 million young people under 25 in Britain who are not in work, in full-time education or training.

Are immigrants doing jobs the British will no longer do? No. In large parts of Britain where there are few, if any, immigrants. British people are doing all these jobs. The fundamental problem is the benefits trap. Wages are held down to a level where for some there is little benefit in working rather than collecting benefits. Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

At last some common sense!!

[selk]

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Certainly confirmed my decision my decision to live in South manc when I moved here. I don't think I would want to have to integrate with you lot.

[skyhigh247]

Originally Posted by selk

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Certainly confirmed my decision my decision to live in South manc when I moved here. I don't think I would want to have to integrate with you lot.

Please don't think were all racists. It's not about that, at least not from my point of view. It's population, economic cheap labour concerns for me.

[Isaac Newell]

When I speak to my parents on the phone, the subject always turns to immigration in general and Oldhams' Asian population in particular, they can't seem to help themselves. Oldham seems to be poisoned by an almost Belfast like sectarianism (as are the more peripheral areas of London if you study local election results) with urban myths forming of asians being "moved" in to certain areas to shore up the Labour vote or local authority leaflets not being available in English.

It's reached almost South African levels of petty catagorization. Here in London I have Sri Lankan neighnours on one side of me, Brazilian neighbours on the other and Yemeni above.

According to my parents though my neighbours are a little more sophisticated and
"not like the p***'s we have in Oldham"

The fault lies squarely with the politicians, local and national for treating people as voting fodder and nothing more.

[skyhigh247]

Originally Posted by Isaac Newell

When I speak to my parents on the phone, the subject always turns to immigration in general and Oldhams' Asian population in particular, they can't seem to help themselves. Oldham seems to be poisoned by an almost Belfast like sectarianism (as are the more peripheral areas of London if you study local election results) with urban myths forming of asians being "moved" in to certain areas to shore up the Labour vote or local authority leaflets not being available in English.

It's reached almost South African levels of petty catagorization. Here in London I have Sri Lankan neighnours on one side of me, Brazilian neighbours on the other and Yemeni above.

According to my parents though my neighbours are a little more sophisticated and
"not like the p***'s we have in Oldham"

The fault lies squarely with the politicians, local and national for treating people as voting fodder and nothing more.

The 'Belfast like quote' really does fit with Burnley and Blackburn. I've spent a lot of time there over the years and i've been shocked at the attitudes and no go areas.

[wiggleyleeds]

Originally Posted by cottonopolis

What absolute naive crap once again. Wiggley people like YOU scare me so much. I mean where does it end??

I'm sorry but its people like you who scare me, so insular and weak that you allow yourself to be manipulated by the right wing media, regurgitating their rants.

You´re so tolerant and "open minded" but in fifty to a hundred years when britons are becoming a minority and the majority have brought a culture so different to our own- will you still be clapping to your PC tune? When your kid´s kids can´t have christmas in school. When your wife has to wear a veil on the streets to avoid abuse. When freedom of speech is a thing of the past and religious critique comes with a death sentence. When the sense of national pride and togetherness is gone (all of course dirty right-wing words to you).. Will you still be clapping then?? Or will you only then see what a great mistake you made..

You really are so naive. British culture has always been changing. It has always been fluid. 50 years ago britain was a very diferent place with very diferent values. Despite massive immigation over the last 50 years, what has changed british culture is not immigration, but the move to secularism and capitalism. People like you moan about the decline of this vague term 'britishness' yet can never actually say what it is, or give any specific examples of how it has declined. As for not having christmas at school, again more scare mongering to create an under-siege climate that isnt based on reality. Despite there being lots of immigration, there is virtually no laws that have ever been changed to the detriment of the people already living here. As for wearing a veil just 3% of people in the uk are muslims, and out of them the overwhelming majority do not wear veils. As for freedom of speech, its alive and kicking, as people always manage to say whatever the hell they like. The only difference these days is that people will challenge them and see them for what they are. And regarding national pride and togetherness, again, pointig to immigration as if the decline in community spirit is to do with immigration is another red herring what you have been manipulated to beleive. Try visiting Hull, the city in the uk that has witessed virtualy no post war immigration at all, and is virtually all white. Its community spirit is non-existant, as people, like everywhere live a selfish consumerist-capitalist lifstyle that revolves around themselves. If anything people are clambering to get out of hull. If anything, the only communities left that have commuity spririt, togetherness, family values, and respect, are immigrant communities. And its ot surprising they cling on to these values, because what is the british alternative?

A response to your absolute disgustingly naive bias crappy article about the fairy tale of net economic benefit:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk

Economic Benefit?

Crappy bias article? Im more inclined to be beleive the CBI of business than the rightwing selfproclaimed 'watchdog' that is migrationwatch, thats whole existance is to lobby against immigration, from a chairman who has been involved in eugenics

However, there are some points raised in that 'artcle' that I will address.

Firstly, even migrationwatch, the rightwing 'thinktank' cannot even prove that immigration is economically detrimental. The best they can do is "immigration is only economically benefitial a little bit" . That completely flies in the face of the usual rhetoric and claptrap about immigration being a drain on the economy - when infact the opposit is true. They even admit it keeps interest rates lower. If interest rates went up right now the country would plummet into a recession.

The benefits of immigation are very much economical. Which is why the government loves it so much. They dont do it just to piss of those who have allowed themselves to be manipulated like you.

something the dailymail would never dare tell you for fear of offending everything you stand for:

* in 2003-4 for every £100 that the UK-born contributed to the exchequer, immigrants contributed £112. This is up from £105 for every £100 in 1999-00;

* immigrants made up 8.7 per cent of the population but accounted for 10.2 per cent of all income tax collected (2003-04);

* immigrants earn about 15 per cent more in average weekly income than UK-born;

* immigrant generated £7,203 in government revenue on average in 2003-04, compared to £6,861 per non-immigrant;

* total revenue from immigrants grew in real terms from £33.8 billion in 1999-00 to £41.2 billion in 2003-04. This 22 per cent increase compares to a 6 per cent increase for the UK-born. The gap between the two contribution rates has been increasing in recent years as newer immigrants are filling vacancies in the higher-ends of the economy and paying more taxes.

source: http://www.ippr.org/pressreleases/?id=1451

If only everyone could be an immigrant

On top of that, even ignoring facts, and using common sense shows the same thing.

London is the capital of the world, and the economic workhouse of the UK, creating the overwhelming majority of the UKs wealth and subsidsing the rest of the UK, yet London is very much an immigrant city with the majority of its population being non ethnic-english.

The two most succesful cities in the world, London and NewYork, are both the most ethnically diverse cities in the world. And the poorest cities in the UK are the least ethnically diverse - hull, liverpool, tyneside.

Countries which have a long history of being open and allow easy access for people to work and contribute to the economy have always been succesful countries such as the UK & America. Countries which close their doors to the outside world, being insular suffer. Such as the ex easterneuropean countries, that are only just opening up now and reaping the massive benefits of global econmics.

Even the richest top 100 people in the UK, more are proportionately immigrant or immigrant descent, including the richest man in the UK, laksshmi mittal of indian asian origin

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

while this makes sense in princiapal, the reality is a significant proportion of immigrants come to the UK, at a fit healthy age, earn money, contribute to the economy, and then go and return home. The millions of people working in the service industry in london mostly europeans have no intention of living here for ever. And lots of eastern europeans come to the UK for seasonal work.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs.

Yes, this keeps inflation low, and growth high. It keeps the economy bouyant. We live in a global economy now, where the UKs economy is only service based now. We are entering an era where everything the UK can do, china and india will be able to do but cheaper. We either keep immigration flexible and wages competetive to keep multinational companies here, or we let them leave the UK and take 1000s and 1000s of jobs with them making the economy suffer, and making the uk-born managers loose their jobs. We either stay competetive, or we sink.