Crossrail

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by mackenziesoley

Plan is all Crossrail services will be all stations with some possible services from Reading being part express but that's undecided.

T5 services is staying an express service with possible Crossrail branding.

Where is this plan?

Here's the latest plan from the London and SE RUS (copied from post #3371)

To free up the capacity necessary to operate the above increased main line service level the existing Heathrow Express service would be replaced by a significantly increased Heathrow Airport to Crossrail service (10tph rather than 4tph as currently planned), all of which would run, at peak times, on the relief lines. At peak times the Heathrow Airport services would need to be skip-stop to maximise relief lines capacity overall, whilst in the off-peak four trains per hour could run non-stop on the main lines. As well as providing increased peak capacity on the GWML a further aim of the option is to improve services between much of Central London and Heathrow Airport, by increasing frequencies to a total of 10tph and running all of these through the Central London Crossrail*tunnels.

The resulting peak 16tph Crossrail service pattern has been assumed to be as follows, though other variations may exist:

• 8tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 (running limited stop on the relief lines)
• 2tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 (running skip-stop on the relief lines)
• 4tph Reading (running skip-stop on the relief lines), based on Option A1 being*implemented
• 2tph Slough (running skip-stop on the relief lines).

I came up with an implementation of that plan in the post below:

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Lets assume the following:
Heathrow T5 trains will only stop at Ealing and Hayes (as limited stop)
All stations get at least 4tph
East of Slough, therefore trains stop at all stations
No trains skip Ealing, Hayes, Slough or Heathrow T123

There's 4x2tph skip stop services, so we're looking something like this every half hour heading west from Paddington:

• Ealing - Hayes - T123 - T5
• Acton - Ealing - Hanwell - Hayes - T123 - T4
• reverse
• Ealing - Hayes - T123 - T5
• Ealing - W Ealing - Southall - Hayes - W Drayton - Iver - Slough - Burnham - Taplow - Maidenhead - Twyford - Reading
• reverse
• Ealing - Hayes - T123 - T5
• Acton - Ealing - Hanwell - Hayes - Iver - Langley - Slough
• reverse
• Ealing - Hayes - T123 - T5
• Ealing - W Ealing - Southall - Hayes - W Drayton - Langley - Slough - Burnham - Taplow - Maidenhead - Twyford - Reading
• reverse

This gives 15 minute regular service at all stations, other than Langley and Iver (which get waits of up to 22.5 minutes) and Heathrow T4 (which only gets 2tph), and free paths in front of the faster Heathrow trains.

[iranair777]

Any diagrams or such to show the work at acton yard? Haven't seen a finished diagram of the tunnel/flyover yet

[cle]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Where is this plan?

Here's the latest plan from the London and SE RUS (copied from post #3371)


I came up with an implementation of that plan in the post below:

This makes sense, but I think both West Ealing and Southall will need more than 4tph each. I would have though 8tph - certainly at West Ealing to make Greenford branch connections worthwhile.

Also I tihnk some trains are supposed to be relatively semi-fast:
Ealing - Hayes - Slough - Maidenhead - Twyford - Reading

I would count on 2tph like that, with another 2tph for Burnham and Taplow. I agree that the previous West Drayton terminators should end at Slough which has the platforms, and mop up Iver/Langley calls.

Maybe the T5 trains will have another stop - possibly Southall on some. Lots of locals work at the airport.

[mackenziesoley]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Where is this plan?

it was mentioned last year as Heathrow was unhappy with the set up. They wanted more fast trains.

[NewcastleUniStudent]

Have I missed something and Crossrail has now been extended to Reading? Also I commute in from Maidenhead in the morning and this new set up would be WORSE. It's currently possible to get a direct train to Paddington that takes 20 minutes, this new system would undoubtably replace those fast trains and make the journey so much slower.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by NewcastleUniStudent

Have I missed something and Crossrail has now been extended to Reading? Also I commute in from Maidenhead in the morning and this new set up would be WORSE. It's currently possible to get a direct train to Paddington that takes 20 minutes, this new system would undoubtably replace those fast trains and make the journey so much slower.

Yes to Reading: to save on costs, Crossrail dropped Reading and as those costs are now being spent (Reading station and GWML electrification) anyway, they did the logical thing, saving some money by not building sidings at Reading in the process.


We've not been talking about fast line timetable, other than the likely remove of Heathrow Express from it (RUS talks about replacing it with an 'Outer Thames Valley' - London shuttle). I'd imagine that Maidenhead, Taplow and Slough will still have some fast line calls (or trains which switch between lines at Slough).

[cle]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Yes to Reading: to save on costs, Crossrail dropped Reading and as those costs are now being spent (Reading station and GWML electrification) anyway, they did the logical thing, saving some money by not building sidings at Reading in the process.


We've not been talking about fast line timetable, other than the likely remove of Heathrow Express from it (RUS talks about replacing it with an 'Outer Thames Valley' - London shuttle). I'd imagine that Maidenhead, Taplow and Slough will still have some fast line calls (or trains which switch between lines at Slough).

I think you mean dropped Maidenhead. I also think Slough is going to be used instead of West Drayton for shorter runs as the set up is there.

And fast calls at Twyford not Taplow.

[LondonerMiles]

Does anybody know any actual planned exstentions of Crossrail Line 1? I know of the Milton Keynes one, its just the network looks incredibly sparse.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by cle

I think you mean dropped Maidenhead. I also think Slough is going to be used instead of West Drayton for shorter runs as the set up is there.

And fast calls at Twyford not Taplow.

You are right - that post was rushed.

Originally Posted by LondonerMiles

Does anybody know any actual planned exstentions of Crossrail Line 1? I know of the Milton Keynes one, its just the network looks incredibly sparse.

Not having many branches isn't the same as sparse - it has one branch too many (or, rather, branches too soon) in the east. In the west there are some short turns that could be extended (then again, they count on 40% of HS2 passengers changing at OOC - that's a lot of passengers joining Crossrail there), with Milton Keynes being the obvious route, though TfL are trying to push Kingston again (totally rejecting Aylesbury, Wycombe and Hounslow options)

Other than that, there are beyond Heathrow and beyond Abbey Wood extensions - Staines and Gravesend are obvious choices and Airtrack to Reading and Guildford via Egham is still being considered, as is a Heathrow - GWML at Slough connection.

[LondonerMiles]

But then again, thats IF HS2 goes ahead. Not trying to start a massive HS2 argument, but we still have the Hybrid Bill, protests and the leagal review.
Too be honest im more in favour of a Thameslink renaisscance than Crossrail Lines shooting evreywhere.

[TedStriker]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

...though TfL are trying to push Kingston again...

Really? Is there some blurb somewhere on the web about this? The only stuff I can find at the moment dates from back in 2003.

[sotonsi]

TfL's response to the London & SE RUS (section 12 of the .pdf

Actually, re-reading it, it's simply Richmond, rather than Kingston, apparently replacing the NLL service (given their grips about Hounslow and level crossings). They also quite like the DC lines, and they reckon MK is too far (surely Reading is too - especially if Tring is going into the 'long' range)?

Originally Posted by LondonerMiles

But then again, thats IF HS2 goes ahead. Not trying to start a massive HS2 argument, but we still have the Hybrid Bill, protests and the leagal review.

Actually, they look as if they are going to study it twice - once as a complimentary project to HS2 (relieve Euston during building, and when the line terminates there), and separately as it's own scheme, assuming no HS2. Obviously the case will be higher with HS2, but I can imagine that a WCML branch would likely have a good case for it (though unlikely to be more than a direct replacement for the Tring/MK stopping routes - so 4tph)

Too be honest im more in favour of a Thameslink renaisscance than Crossrail Lines shooting evreywhere.

I take it you've heard of Thameslink Project. I don't see what a Thameslink renaissance would do beyond that - you wouldn't be able to put more trains on it than it will have in 2018.

[mr_jrt]

The decision not to use the New North Mainline reminds me of an old comedy sketch dating from back when Wembley stadium was being demolished. A dark single-bulb-lit smoky room, and a bunch of suits leaning over a table with a map. One says "Ok, we need a new national stadium." "It's a chance to get things right." One says, "It should be central to the country." A brummie voice pipes up..."how about Birmingham?". Ignoring him, another says, "it needs great transport links...an international airport, high speed intercity trains." The brummie voice pipes up again..."How about Birmingham?". One of the men places his mug down on the map over Birmingham. "London it is then!"

...point being that I just can't understand why the most obvious choice is just being dismissed out of hand.

[Rational Plan]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

TfL's response to the London & SE RUS (section 12 of the .pdf

Actually, re-reading it, it's simply Richmond, rather than Kingston, apparently replacing the NLL service (given their grips about Hounslow and level crossings). They also quite like the DC lines, and they reckon MK is too far (surely Reading is too - especially if Tring is going into the 'long' range)?
Actually, they look as if they are going to study it twice - once as a complimentary project to HS2 (relieve Euston during building, and when the line terminates there), and separately as it's own scheme, assuming no HS2. Obviously the case will be higher with HS2, but I can imagine that a WCML branch would likely have a good case for it (though unlikely to be more than a direct replacement for the Tring/MK stopping routes - so 4tph)I take it you've heard of Thameslink Project. I don't see what a Thameslink renaissance would do beyond that - you wouldn't be able to put more trains on it than it will have in 2018.

Well if TFL had it's way Crossrail would terminate at Romford and West Drayton. TFL is only interested in Greater London and wants the crossrail lines to be high capacity tube lines. Network Rail has it's owns views and the interests of London's workforce extends beyond the M25.

TFL can mutter all they want about Richmond, except how are they going to fit 12 carriage trains down that line? The station is not large, it would need some demolition, which is what helped sink the last crossrail branch to Richmond.

The reason WCML is the preferred option is obvious, it not only makes the rebuilding of Euston easier it greatly, reduces the need for commuters to use the tube at Euston.

[TedStriker]

Originally Posted by Rational Plan

TFL can mutter all they want about Richmond, except how are they going to fit 12 carriage trains down that line? The station is not large, it would need some demolition, which is what helped sink the last crossrail branch to Richmond.

Exactly. Anyone that knows the line and the stations along it knows that it is totally not in anyway fit for a Crossrail type of service, so one wonders why TFL is mentioning this as an idea.

In addition, the 'new' Overground services work really well, and TFL itself is proposing the idea of running the Richmond services via the forthcoming Old Oak Common hub, so it must therefore also see them as a success!

As for Crossrail connecting with the WCML, I doubt we'll see this happen due to massive cost of both the tunnels between Old Oak and the WCML and the grade separated junctions with the WCML, as a recent Network Rail report says.

[lemmo]

Maybe not to Richmond, as it would require major rebuilding, but why not onto the Hounslow Loop? This would greatly relieve the busy Windsor Lines from Barnes east into Waterloo, which the RUS does not have a solution for. It would improve orbital connections around West London, and the new chord at Old Oak Common can be included as part of the major works there. Acton Central and South Acton can easily be extend to 12-car, and the connections will boost the Overground route.

[Rational Plan]

Originally Posted by TedStriker

Exactly. Anyone that knows the line and the stations along it knows that it is totally not in anyway fit for a Crossrail type of service, so one wonders why TFL is mentioning this as an idea.

In addition, the 'new' Overground services work really well, and TFL itself is proposing the idea of running the Richmond services via the forthcoming Old Oak Common hub, so it must therefore also see them as a success!

As for Crossrail connecting with the WCML, I doubt we'll see this happen due to massive cost of both the tunnels between Old Oak and the WCML and the grade separated junctions with the WCML, as a recent Network Rail report says.

I rather think that is for an optimum high speed link. I suspect Network rail of gilding that lily.

[Rational Plan]

Originally Posted by lemmo

Maybe not to Richmond, as it would require major rebuilding, but why not onto the Hounslow Loop? This would greatly relieve the busy Windsor Lines from Barnes east into Waterloo, which the RUS does not have a solution for. It would improve orbital connections around West London, and the new chord at Old Oak Common can be included as part of the major works there. Acton Central and South Acton can easily be extend to 12-car, and the connections will boost the Overground route.

I think TFL wamt to now put the Overground this way. For either option the chief concern is turning around 4 trains an hour at Hounslow.

[Christopher125]

Originally Posted by mr_jrt

...point being that I just can't understand why the most obvious choice is just being dismissed out of hand.

...because there isnt sufficient demand to justify it, and with HS2 there isnt the room either. In a nutshell, thats why.

Chris

[Jon10]

TfL has been dangling the idea of a

Hounslow - Oak Oak Common - Hendon

new Overground service in front of the transport departments of the relevant London boroughs.