Crossrail

[jas_sl]

Has the TBM digging started yet? I've searched high and low and can't see anything mentioned even though they were supposed to be launched in March. Is there a hold up?

[Glom]

Originally Posted by jas_sl

Has the TBM digging started yet? I've searched high and low and can't see anything mentioned even though they were supposed to be launched in March. Is there a hold up?

There's been a change of strategy. They're now going for the cut n cover technique.

[tripleseis]

Saw the two Royal Oak TBMs on Friday while travelling on the Circle line. They are bloody huge!

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by jas_sl

Has the TBM digging started yet? I've searched high and low and can't see anything mentioned even though they were supposed to be launched in March. Is there a hold up?

The fact they're still plonked above ground at Royal oak suggests not!

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by ill tonkso

Is that the actual scale? We got the tube back from Westbourne Park when we visited the portal last week. Didn't realise how far we hadn't walked from Paddington.

It's not pinpoint, I have to distort the scale to get clarity of track detail (i.e. the actual GWML is not this wide), but yes station locations are accurate relative to one another. I also distort platforms to make them wider (therefore easier to see); if the atlas was simply traced over satellite photos then it would be unreadable.

This is a larger-scale inset map.

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by lemmo

Thanks Tubeman, that's very useful, thanks for posting. Look forward to the new edition of your Atlas

There is an underpass planned at Acton to allow freight (aggregates) to access the depot without fouling the Crossrail lines. As you say, what is not clear is where the Crossrail lines merge into the GWML Slow lines, and whether this is grade-separated. If it is a flat junction then this becomes the first bottleneck west and effectively limits the service intensity beyond Paddington.

Why did they not design Crossrail so that it emerged between the Slow lines west of Royal Oak, which would create a grade-separated junction?

On the flyover for the carriage lines, I thought the FGW depot moves to he IEP depot on the south side where the Eurostar depot currently lies, and the existing Old Oak Common depot becomes Crossrail, but perhaps FGW will still have stabling on the the north side at Old Oak Common...?

That makes sense if it is the case (FGW using North Pole depot)... in that case the OOC flyover becomes somewhat redundant.

I think the diver-under for Acton yard access has started work, as there was a lot of activity there when I passed en route to Cornwall on Good friday. What baffled me a little was there were aggregates trains in Acton Yard, but as far as I could see the throat at the Ealing end was blocked by the works. It was only that temporary blue netting however, so perhaps it's moved to allow access / egress?

I assume the portal is where it is to minimise tunnelling, and also to allow the space formerly occupied by Paddington New Goods yard (currently the temporarily closed tarmac stone terminal) to host the turnback sidings.

[Tyr]

wait...they're not using tunnel borers? I remember that was such big news a few months back...

[lemmo]

I assume the portal is where it is to minimise tunnelling, and also to allow the space formerly occupied by Paddington New Goods yard (currently the temporarily closed tarmac stone terminal) to host the turnback sidings.

...and also because the tunnel would have to extend significantly further west in order to rise between the GW Slow lines while avoiding the H&C underpass at Royal Oak. The current design is fine with the turnback at Westbourne Park, but if they intensify the Crossrail service west then the next grade-separated junction is Heathrow. Therefore a new branch for WCML or Chiltern Line will need a grade-separated junction, and more complex arrangements at Old Oak Common.

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by Tyr

wait...they're not using tunnel borers? I remember that was such big news a few months back...

I think someone is pulling your leg

Cut & cover down Oxford Street?

[Vulcan's Finest]

Originally Posted by jas_sl

Has the TBM digging started yet? I've searched high and low and can't see anything mentioned even though they were supposed to be launched in March. Is there a hold up?

Looks like the collapse of one of the tunnel 'eyes' back in March has indeed delayed the TBM launch. Not sure if anything has happened in the last 10 days - the first TBM was still stuck on the ramp on April 12th.

[lemmo]

Tubeman, thanks for the Paddington diagram. Any advice on your sources showing how they plan to reconfigure the platforms? Obviously the platforms are on a curve at the west end, and it is difficult to see how they will get full-length platforms 11 and 12 while still retaining short terminating platforms 13 and 14 alongside the H&C platforms...

cheers

[Glom]

Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest

Looks like the collapse of one of the tunnel 'eyes' back in March has indeed delayed the TBM launch. Not sure if anything has happened in the last 10 days - the first TBM was still stuck on the ramp on April 12th.

Is that going to delay the launch of the others? When's the next one (is the one going to Farringdon from the East?)?

[Jon10]

What's the recent history of the 'turnback sidings'?

Were they going to be deleted under LB of Kensington & Chelsea's cunning plan for a Kensal Green Crossrail station? (And was that supposed to be just platforms on the two reversing sidings, or a four platform station?)

I presume that is a dead duck now, or at least while HS2 is presumed to have the go-ahead, because Old Oak Common will get the extra west London Crossrail station instead, in the rival LB of Hammersmith & Fulham.

With all that uncertainty, the reversing sidings stay in the plan at Royal Oak / Westbourne Park.

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by lemmo

Tubeman, thanks for the Paddington diagram. Any advice on your sources showing how they plan to reconfigure the platforms? Obviously the platforms are on a curve at the west end, and it is difficult to see how they will get full-length platforms 11 and 12 while still retaining short terminating platforms 13 and 14 alongside the H&C platforms...

cheers

Pass... I've only replicated the current layout as I don't know any better

Logically no work would happen in earnest until Crossrail opens in 2018, as only then will capacity be freed up within Paddington proper to allow platforms to be taken out of use for reconfiguration.

Bishops Road (the northern section including H&C / Circle platforms) used to be four through platforms onto the Metropolitan railway. I'd like to see this re-established to give two reversing bays for the H&C / Circle (like Edgware Road). This would allow the H&C / Circle distinction to be ditched in favour of a single service which would run:

Hammersmith - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St - Tower Hill - Gloucester Rd - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St - Aldgate E - Barking

The Hammersmith section would be supplemented with a Hammersmith - Paddington shuttle using the bays at Paddington, the logic being that barring a couple of curves, every other section of this new service is shared with other services and indeed this line overlaps itself, so 10tph is the comfortable maximum which is inadequate for the Hammersmith branch / Westfield.

[Malcolm of Kent]

Originally Posted by Tubeman

...which would run:

Hammersmith - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St - Tower Hill - Gloucester Rd - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St - Aldgate E - Barking

The Hammersmith section would be supplemented with a Hammersmith - Paddington shuttle using the bays at Paddington, ...

Wow! The "Get Knotted" line.

It might make sense in operational terms, if all the tph calculations add up to the right answers, as I suspect you have already done those sums.

But the scope for confusing even Jo Public (let alone Jo Tourist) would be immense. Standing on the Platform at KX-STP, for instance, and wanting to go to Barking, you'd have to try to discriminate between a GetKnotted train which goes straight to Barking, and the one before/after it which will get there eventually, but only after a very long and pointless ride.

Maybe not insuperable, I suppose the train would be labelled "Gloucester Road" or something at first, then it's destination would keep advancing as it went along. But since people have enough difficulty with such concepts as the Southbound Northern line, is it really wise to be strewing red herrings like self-overlapping routes across their path?

[Malcolm of Kent]

Originally Posted by Tubeman

..The Hammersmith section would be supplemented with a Hammersmith - Paddington shuttle using the bays at Paddington, the logic being ...

Unless I happened to be going to Reading or somewhere, I'd find a Paddington-only train rather irritating, as it's quite a long walk (with barrier issues?) to get to the bakerloo or the ex-circle platforms. At least at Edgeware Road you've got either CPI or over-the-bridge to another "met" train.

[NCT]

Originally Posted by Malcolm of Kent

Wow! The "Get Knotted" line.

It might make sense in operational terms, if all the tph calculations add up to the right answers, as I suspect you have already done those sums.

But the scope for confusing even Jo Public (let alone Jo Tourist) would be immense. Standing on the Platform at KX-STP, for instance, and wanting to go to Barking, you'd have to try to discriminate between a GetKnotted train which goes straight to Barking, and the one before/after it which will get there eventually, but only after a very long and pointless ride.

Maybe not insuperable, I suppose the train would be labelled "Gloucester Road" or something at first, then it's destination would keep advancing as it went along. But since people have enough difficulty with such concepts as the Southbound Northern line, is it really wise to be strewing red herrings like self-overlapping routes across their path?

I don't think things would be much different to present day. Anticlockwise Circle and westbound Hammersmith trains are already indistinguishable west of Liverpool Street as both show Hammersmith, whereas eastbound trains show 'Circle Line via Tower Hill' (?) and 'Barking respectively'. Currently destination display for the Circle Line is as follows -

Clockwise - Circle Line via Tower Hill, then Edgward Road?
Anticlockwise - Circle Line Via Liverpool Street, then Hammersmith.

I'm sure Tubeman will be able to correct me.

In terms of the Get Knotted Line, I guess it'd just show

Via Tower Hill, Via High Street Ken, Barking 'eastbound', and
Via King's X St Pancras, Via High Street Ken, Via Liverpool Street, Hammersmith 'westbound'.

So on the overlapping sections the trains are easily distinguishable.

[Vulcan's Finest]

Originally Posted by Jon10

What's the recent history of the 'turnback sidings'?

Were they going to be deleted under LB of Kensington & Chelsea's cunning plan for a Kensal Green Crossrail station? (And was that supposed to be just platforms on the two reversing sidings, or a four platform station?)

I presume that is a dead duck now, or at least while HS2 is presumed to have the go-ahead, because Old Oak Common will get the extra west London Crossrail station instead, in the rival LB of Hammersmith & Fulham.

With all that uncertainty, the reversing sidings stay in the plan at Royal Oak / Westbourne Park.

Irrespective of stations being built further down the line, those turnback sidings at Paddington will be a good idea - for all those suicides blocking the GWML on a regular basis and for any other farces that may take place.

[lemmo]

Of course, it's essential to the resilience of the intensive 24tph through the core, but going back to my question above:

The current design is fine with the turnback at Westbourne Park, but if they intensify the Crossrail service west then the next grade-separated junction is Heathrow. Therefore a new branch for WCML or Chiltern Line will need a grade-separated junction, and more complex arrangements at Old Oak Common.

I wonder how they might engineer this...?

[Vulcan's Finest]

The rear end of the first TBM's train was still viewable this morning, so it seems that tunneling has yet to start at the Royal Oak portal.