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Old May 25th, 2008, 08:45 PM   #201
TRZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
About the 407 Interchange Stn, the idea is to tie-in some GO BRT services. I question the logic of this for several reasons. The time it takes to exit/re-enter the highway and layover at the station, it'd probably be of more benefit to a majority of commuters to board the subway at Yonge (Richmond Hill Centre extension).
Actually, the bigger concern with Richmond Hill Centre is overcrowding on southern Yonge as a result of increased stress originating in the north. In that respect, the Spadina extension using GO for off-loading some of Yonge's pressure would be a valid purpose. However, GO's BRT service is gonna go to York U anyway; it is the main hub of their 407 service. The subway does not need to go to the 407 because GO has to go to York U anyway.

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Furthermore the GO terminal at Yorkdale is already highly viable, closer to downtown, etc. It's redundant to have multiple GO terminals on the same section of subway.
True, but GO and TTC integration at various points in the network is not a bad thing at all; if anything, the lack of integration is a bigger problem from a network-wide perspective.



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The developers of Downsview Park can't sacrifice a sliver of land out of endless hectares of land?
Open trench would impact the attractiveness of the land for development. That's why they want it buried.
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Allowing the subway to run at grade through would be ideal for a TTC/GO tie-in.
You cannot have the TTC cross the GO corridor as a level crossing, that is absurd.
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The planned GO station could be built side by side the subway stop, allotting seamless interchange between both.
Faregates complicate this idea, although I would agree in principle that they should try to go for something like that.
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For crossing Sheppard Ave, just fortify and expand the decking of the existing train bridge, such that bi-directional subway cars can route across as well. The TTC's official plan for this area involves a more invasive routing through the Chesswood industrial park, whereby millions will have to paid out to landowners. The lands immediately adjacent to the traintracks are backlots and other non-usable properties that can easily be utilized for a ROW.
The reason is that this route is prefferable for making a good location for Finch West station, which has important connections, most notable of which will be the Finch West LRT. Ideally, this station would be under a major street rather than in a hydro corridor or a railway corridor where pedestrian traffic isn't as natural as it might be at, oh, say, Keele and Finch. So the TTC is getting its money's worth by paying the landowners for getting Finch West station. I agree with the argument that the GO connection could have been done at Finch though, and no station at Sheppard West would be necessary (that station will see low traffic), since Downsview is already at Sheppard West.


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I'm glad I not the only person opposed to building this line past the university. The present-day VIVA Orange BRT line runs very frequent such that VCC-York U would be approximately 5 mins away. With frequency like that is it really worth it to spend another billion to Highway 7?
Trust me, even the TTC's senior staff are opposed to the 905 portion (it's political bullshit behind it all)
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Can I ask though, what's wrong with P3s? If the Sheppard 'stubway's any indication it gonna take alot of outside funds to get adequate transit expansion programs underway in Toronto.
P3s have a history of being lousy deals and are way more trouble then they're worth or save. Why raise the risk of failure so carelessly when you can go with a guaranteed safer way? P3s are particularly unattractive for the public transportation market in North America. Look at Las Vegas for proof.
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Old May 26th, 2008, 12:49 AM   #202
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Here in Dubai they are building 2 LRT Metro lines at the moment. I would say around 1/4 is underground beneath the older and denser part of the town. The rest is in an elevated track that runs mostly alongside the city's main highway.

For the underground portion they have used both the TBM (2 of them simultaniously) and cut and cover technique. But I have to say here the city roads are ususally 3 + 3 with relatively wide divisions between them and provision for parkings or even paralel roads in front of the buildings nearby, so they had allot of place to divert the traffic while maintaining the number of open lanes. More disruptions have been caused by building the stations which in many cases are being build beneath major crossroads, converting them into signalled roundabouts.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 03:52 AM   #203
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Delhi metro Rail Corporation is a profit making mass rapid transit system......
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Old July 17th, 2008, 04:26 AM   #204
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Show me a freeway that makes a profit.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 06:10 AM   #205
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Show me a freeway that makes a profit.
New Jersey Turnpike and the 12 miles of I-95 in Delaware. Because they toll you to death as they are drive through roads, cause everyone hates Jersey and Delaware is small. Delaware's 12 miles are the heaviest tolled miles in the country.

I would also say the Pennsylvania Turnpikes, another drive through road, except for the fact that they have some impressive tunnels.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 06:54 AM   #206
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are any publicly owned programs profitable?
Say the NY MTA was operating with surplus, they would just use the extra money on repairs/renovation/new stops/lines/etc
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Old July 17th, 2008, 06:55 AM   #207
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^ I think so. I doubt the government has an agreement in place to get reverse funding, or a cut from these surpluses.
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Old July 19th, 2008, 03:16 AM   #208
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Delhi metro is a profit making metro systems and I think there are only 5 metro system in the world which make profits Taipie,H&KDelhi,London are among them.....
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Old June 30th, 2009, 02:01 AM   #209
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What are the costs of building of a subway

I am interested in the average cost of a subway vs the average cost of light rail. I've heard arguments where the two are very far apart, and other that say the difference is minimal. (I'm lumping monorail in with light rail assuming the costs are similar.)

What components go into a subway that make it more expensive?

I would imagine cut and cover is cheaoer than using a TBM. On the other hand, I've seen TBMs up for auction on EBay. So I wonder, what is the reality and how close is it to a bureacracy's interpretation of the costs.

Can anyone help?
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Old June 30th, 2009, 10:58 PM   #210
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Can't really help with figures dwdwone but the merits of the different types of transport really have to be assessed by cost benefit analysis.

Deep level tunnels, depending on the ground conditions, can be really cheap and are particularly suited to European cities as they seldom have the long, straight streets of US cities that favour cut and cover. The beauty of the deep level tunnel is that the only disruption on the surface is for the construction / ventilation shafts and station entrances - often half a kilometre or more apart.

Cut and cover is probably more expensive to construct as it involves closing off major roads to traffic, restricting access to shops, offices and homes and requires the diversion of services beneath the highway surface, which can be a major problem in a modern city.

The benefits are that the increased access to the worksite makes construction periods shorter, and in the longer term, the larger, rectangular tunnels made easier to construct by this method allow larger trains and stations. Stations are also closer to the surface making them quicker and easier to access and easier to ventilate.

You only have to look at the underground system in London to compare the two methods. The 1860s cut and cover lines, such as the Circle, District and Metropolitan are often accessed by just a staircase, have large stations and large trains and are much cooler in the summer due to being open to the air in many locations. However, their route is dictated by the roads above and they are not as direct as the later tube lines.

The burrowed tube line tunnels are all accessed by lifts or escalators, have very small trains and are often unbearably hot when crowded in the summer. However, they are easier to build, which is why Crossrail will be a burrowed tunnel system even though built to main line gauge.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 11:49 AM   #211
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Cut'n'cover 1$<mining 5$<TBM 10$

This is the approximate ratio of construction cost.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 01:15 PM   #212
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Wait: if too long cut'n'cover is more expensive than TBM
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Old July 1st, 2009, 03:52 PM   #213
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What is "too long"? 10km?20km?
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Old July 1st, 2009, 04:27 PM   #214
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It depends: anyway I think over 10 km it begins to be too expensive respect TBM whose rental costs (and assembly-disassembly of course) tend to amortize as length increases, while cut'n'cover, wich has to move at least three times the excavation ground (averegely: it depends how deep it is), remains unchanged

Anyway (always averagely) the difference beetween boring a tunnel and a deep (7m) cut'n'cover is abut 10%: 100M € per Km the first, 80/90M € per Km the second one
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Old July 1st, 2009, 07:49 PM   #215
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Doesn't it make any difference what you are cutting or boring through? Out here, beneath a layer of clay, it is solid basalt, whereas half a kilometre east it is just alluvial silt.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 08:30 PM   #216
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Good day to all of you as you know Mexico city at the moment is boulding the 15th subway line of 24 km ant the cost will be around $ 900,000,000.00 nine hundred millions dollars , is about $ 37,000,000.00 millions by km, underground. It will have 40 trains and conectec with 4 others lines. or check Mexico city metro
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Old July 3rd, 2009, 11:07 AM   #217
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Quote:
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Cut'n'cover 1$<mining 5$<TBM 10$

This is the approximate ratio of construction cost.
Mining and TBM are similar except for the technique used to bore the hole, right?
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Old July 3rd, 2009, 11:20 AM   #218
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Doesn't it make any difference what you are cutting or boring through? Out here, beneath a layer of clay, it is solid basalt, whereas half a kilometre east it is just alluvial silt.
Obviously it makes difference... normally basaltic soil is easier and cheaper to dig as no many consolidations are needed (or nothing at all in many cases)
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Old July 3rd, 2009, 11:41 AM   #219
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Obviously it makes difference... normally basaltic soil is easier and cheaper to dig as no many consolidations are needed (or nothing at all in many cases)
Unfortunately our basaltic soil is less than a metre deep if you're lucky: from there down it's solid rock.
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Old July 4th, 2009, 08:07 AM   #220
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Yes, I would say light rail cost's less, there are so many variables, accidents and obstacles when building tunnels, always has been. Building a deep level station is so much more expensive than a glass and concrete box 10 metres above the ground.

Crossrail should give you a good idea of the higher end of the scale, it's well documented and happening now so the cost is relevant. As far as I know the figure of 16 billion GBP includes everything from the compulsory purchases right to the building of the trains. Most of the stations are already there but are going to be completely rebuilt to accommodate the extra line and passengers.
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