daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 14th, 2009, 09:52 PM   #241
Tiago Costa
Servir sempre!
 
Tiago Costa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 35,259

I agree. A rapid transit system does not have to be constructed along freeways, unless the potential demand points that it is the best route to build the rapid transit system. Usually, freeways are crowded of cars, but their surroundings are not a very busy part of the cities, so usually is not a wise decision to build a rapid transit line in such places.
Tiago Costa no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 14th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #242
cjav
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Rotterdam, New Haven
Posts: 725
Likes (Received): 117

Several euro's I love stacking stuff on one sandwich.
cjav no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2009, 12:41 AM   #243
enkay
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Bay
Posts: 36
Likes (Received): 0

In a lot of places in North America freeways are the primary catalysts for development for suburban areas; you'll see most of the office parks and shopping centres being built adjacent to freeways. So if planners want subway lines to hit major commercial developments, building along a freeway becomes perfectly reasonable.
enkay no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2009, 05:25 PM   #244
Rail_Serbia
Registered User
 
Rail_Serbia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beograd
Posts: 964
Likes (Received): 669

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatia View Post
I remember once i've read in a newspaper of a figure of 40-60 million $ per km in Istanbul. In Istanbul they're building and projected to build more than 200 km subway and rail systems, including a undersea tunnel between Asian and European side of the city.

Marmaray project is 76 km and it will cost 2,5 billion dollars. 32 million $ per km.
Those costs are for construction + rolling stocks. Construction is 1,6 bn$ + 1,0bn$ for rolling stocks. There is only 13km of the new section. I don't no does it include repair of rest of the 63 km ol network and adding 3rd rail on it?
Rail_Serbia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2009, 05:40 PM   #245
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

The Toronto Spadina Subway extension will cost around 2.09 Billion for 8.7km, or around $250M per km.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2009, 01:08 AM   #246
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

I've just had a look at a some of the recent subway construction costs in China, which are fairly representative of the rest under construction.

Nanjing -Line 1 -58 $million/km
Shenyang -Line 1 -59 $million/km
Beijing -Line 4 -76 $million/km
Shenzhen -Line 5 -76 $million/km
Shenzhen -Line 4 -53 $million/km
Hangzhou -Line 1 -67 $million/km
Chongqing -Line 1 -51 $million/km
Chengdu -Line 1 -68 $million/km
Tianjin -Line 1 -44 $million/km
Tianjin -Line 3 -59 $million/km
Guangzhou -Various -58-73 $million/km

NB. There are a lot more subway lines currently under construction, and there is a pretty comprehensive list on the wikipedia link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_t...ublic_of_China

Last edited by Restless; November 16th, 2009 at 01:16 AM.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #247
Abhishek901
Registered User
 
Abhishek901's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,773
Likes (Received): 1204

In Delhi, 65 km of Phase-I (17 km underground, rest elevated) was built in Rs. 105 billion (USD 2.2 billion), i.e., USD 34 million per km. 125 km of Phase-II (37 km underground, rest elevated) is being built at a cost of Rs. 200 billion (USD 4.2 billion), again USD 34 million per km. Phase-III will be 120 km and will cost USD 6.3 billion, i.e., USD 53 million per km

In other cities of India (Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai, Kolkata), the construction costs are upwards of USD 50 million per km.
Abhishek901 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2009, 09:22 PM   #248
StreetView
25º25'S 49º15'W
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 469
Likes (Received): 9

In Brazil, local governments usually just manage bus systems as far as routes, schedules and fares go. Bus services are mostly provided by private companies licensed by the cities, so it has to be profitable, given that cities rarely subsidize bus systems.

Usually only the plain fare is available (50% discount for students, free rides for elderly citizens and full fare for everybody else), as no major city offers daily, weekly or monthly pass.

As for rail systems (subway and suburban trains), they are usually operated by each state government. However, they are not subsidized, just like the buses. Although no system offers passes, some of them offer a discounted fare for loyal riders, on weekends or when you prepay a certain number of rides. Usually the farebox recovery rate exceeds 100% (not much, though) and the surplus is invested on the system itself.
__________________
Home is where your heart is
Click here for my pics on Panoramio.
StreetView no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2009, 10:34 PM   #249
lightrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 205
Likes (Received): 16

Vancouver SKyTrain recovers from the farebox more than its operating costs. Several bus routes in Vancouver (mainly the electric trolley routes and the 99 B-line express, also collect more than they cost to run. But overall, the transit system cost recovery is around 40%

In England, most services are operated commercially; however, the commercial operators simply drop money losing routes, leaving it to the local government to pick up the cost of providing needed service.
lightrail no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 28th, 2009, 06:45 AM   #250
Tiago Costa
Servir sempre!
 
Tiago Costa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 35,259

Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetView View Post
In Brazil, local governments usually just manage bus systems as far as routes, schedules and fares go. Bus services are mostly provided by private companies licensed by the cities, so it has to be profitable, given that cities rarely subsidize bus systems.

Usually only the plain fare is available (50% discount for students, free rides for elderly citizens and full fare for everybody else), as no major city offers daily, weekly or monthly pass.

As for rail systems (subway and suburban trains), they are usually operated by each state government. However, they are not subsidized, just like the buses. Although no system offers passes, some of them offer a discounted fare for loyal riders, on weekends or when you prepay a certain number of rides. Usually the farebox recovery rate exceeds 100% (not much, though) and the surplus is invested on the system itself.
This is not entirely true. São Paulo bus system is very integrated, but it is subsidied by a considered very huge amount for a bus system (more than R$ 600 million/year - around US$ 353 million, at 1 R$ = US$ 0.58 conversion rate).

Comparing all the brazilian rail systems, only 3 of them (Metrô-SP, Metrô-Rio and SuperVia) are profitable. However, only Metrô-Rio have a real considerable profit, because SuperVia has a very tiny profit, and were in loss for years. Metrô-SP, although is profitable, just cover it's costs, not generating profit in a considerable useful amount to, for example, buy new trains or build new lines. These are all done by government funding.

All other rail systems are lightly or heavily subsidized. CPTM (São Paulo), for example, had a subsidy of around R$ 300 million (US$ 176 million) in 2008. Every year, it have lower dependancy of the government, but it's not so close from a operationl profit.

On CBTU systems (CBTU is a federal government company), cover rates (the amount of the costs paid by the system's fares) range from 30% to 60%. This implies in a very high level of subsidies, but not implies a high amount of subsidy as CPTM gets, because the cost of CBTU systems (and the systems themselves) are small compared with the CPTM's costs.
Tiago Costa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 28th, 2009, 03:07 PM   #251
StreetView
25º25'S 49º15'W
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 469
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Costa View Post
This is not entirely true. São Paulo bus system is very integrated, but it is subsidied by a considered very huge amount for a bus system (more than R$ 600 million/year - around US$ 353 million, at 1 R$ = US$ 0.58 conversion rate).
Agreed. That's why I said that bus system are rarely subsidized in Brazil. But look at the other systems -- the cities usually cannot afford subsidizing mass transit and if they don't make money they go on strike.
__________________
Home is where your heart is
Click here for my pics on Panoramio.

Last edited by StreetView; November 28th, 2009 at 03:39 PM.
StreetView no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 28th, 2009, 07:07 PM   #252
dexmex
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 173
Likes (Received): 10

In Belgrade ,1.1 bil.eur for M1,M2 for heavy Metro,25 km,still negotiate loan with Russia,Germany,China,Spain so ther,s a hevy concurents also battle for prestige in this part of Europe it,s possible that Belgrade get,s extra metro lines if concludes this negotiations succesfully.
dexmex no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2009, 02:28 AM   #253
Tiago Costa
Servir sempre!
 
Tiago Costa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: São Paulo
Posts: 35,259

I was not referring only to subsidy of bus systems, but both rail and bus systems.
Tiago Costa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2009, 01:59 AM   #254
Martuh
×××
 
Martuh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 860
Likes (Received): 23

Quote:
Originally Posted by seawastate View Post
Are there any examples of mass transit (buses, subways, metros, commuter rails, light rail, etc.) that are profitable? Are there private mass transit companies?
I believe the first European high speed rail (Paris-Lyon) earned it's invested money back in nothing more then only... 12 years
__________________
''Feyenoord, het enige dat ik van Feyenoord weet is dat ze uit het land van Ajax komen''
(Fabio Capello)

||| X |||
|||
X |||
|||
X |||
Martuh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2009, 03:13 AM   #255
sekelsenmat
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,139
Likes (Received): 50

About this topic, this document is extremely interresting (portuguese only):

http://www.metro.sp.gov.br/empresa/r...aMetro2008.pdf

Metro São Paulo had the following data (rounded):

Income: 1,2 billion R$

Operational Loss: -135 million R$

But also the following social benefits:

Polution emission reduction: 178 million R$
Fuel consumption reduction: 923 million R$
Onibus and auto operational cost reduction: 1,5 billion R$
Travel time reductions: 2,2 billion R$
Accident reduction: 119 million R$
Total social benefit: 4,9 billion R$

So it's either losing money, if you just look at operational results, or having an astonishing 4,8 billion R$ profit per year if you think about the whole result.
sekelsenmat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 3rd, 2009, 03:32 AM   #256
hoosier
Registered User
 
hoosier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,450
Likes (Received): 62

Are there any profitable roads?
__________________
R.I.P. Moke- my best bud
hoosier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 3rd, 2009, 06:14 PM   #257
Osaka H
Registered User
 
Osaka H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 64
Likes (Received): 0

North-South Line in Amsterdam.

Length: 9,7 km
Cost: Over €2.1 mln

Start Building: 2003
Original Date of Finish: 2011, Current Date of Finish: 2017.
YES, we took over 15 years to build 9.7 km of subway!
Osaka H no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2009, 01:07 AM   #258
Lucky Lukas
Registered User
 
Lucky Lukas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 686
Likes (Received): 2

I believe the Jubilee LIne Extension in London cost in the area of $400m/km. Metrosur in Madrid was about €42m/km.

Yes the Spaniards achieved some economies of scale by building a lot at once, but predominantly I think they have better planning procedures, lower labour costs, and above all a much better attitude to metro construction. In the UK there is a general negativity about metro building. We make it so difficult and see so many reasons why we can't do it, then we have expensive public enquiries and delays, and new problems and the costs add up.

http://mindroutes.blogspot.com/2008/...rid-metro.html
__________________
www.mindroutes.blogspot.com
Lucky Lukas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 02:33 AM   #259
dexmex
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 173
Likes (Received): 10

@Lucky Lukas

Iisn't it too much expensive? In Belgrade we have to make also a new Metro bridge 40-60 mil.eur also on New Belgrade possible above the ground ,many experts estamates that higher price is 65 mil.eur/km German offer ,Russians offered much less as a loan but they have to get a contract in return, but in neibour Sofia.Mitsubishi heavy inds.31 mil.eur for extension,in Belgrade we conclude that stations are those who are most expensive not tunnels wich we alredy have 30 km double tunnels for suburban Metro,actaually we expend existing system.
dexmex no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 02:59 AM   #260
Lucky Lukas
Registered User
 
Lucky Lukas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 686
Likes (Received): 2

Yes, far far too expensive. It can be done much cheaper but like I said we go about it the wrong way in UK,
__________________
www.mindroutes.blogspot.com
Lucky Lukas no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium