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Old November 13th, 2007, 06:11 PM   #1081
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Originally Posted by cjfjapan View Post
I think the days of Portside as a commercial center were over before they began. Downtown is an event destination, not a shopping destination. Plus, most of the stores you named can also be found at other malls in the area - why drive five miles out of your way to pay to park to shop at the same old stores? An Apple Store, Trader Joe's, etc might draw some people, but why should those stores locate in an office district surrounded by low-income neighborhoods, rather than around Franklin Park? It would be a bad business decision. The city should, as it is, focus first on residential construction in downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods, and the retail will eventually follow.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 07:50 PM   #1082
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Originally Posted by cjfjapan View Post
I think the days of Portside as a commercial center were over before they began. Downtown is an event destination, not a shopping destination. Plus, most of the stores you named can also be found at other malls in the area - why drive five miles out of your way to pay to park to shop at the same old stores? An Apple Store, Trader Joe's, etc might draw some people, but why should those stores locate in an office district surrounded by low-income neighborhoods, rather than around Franklin Park? It would be a bad business decision. The city should, as it is, focus first on residential construction in downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods, and the retail will eventually follow.
You are right, and if you read what I just wrote that is exactly what I mean with the residential developments and to increase disposable income population which would lead to restoration or revival of the Portside Marketplace. IMO, COSi should be either on the UT Main Campus or at the Zoo if they are going to survive and I find it such a waste to put them in the marketplace when the facility is a perfect place for commercial/retail zoning only. Some of the retail that I have mentioned are in the outlying areas of Toledo but why not one in the downtown area? I live downtown and I would be a patron at the stores listed and why should I as a resident travel to the "sticks" to go these very same stores? I've got the income and so does others who live in the neighborhoods of Warehouse District, Old West End, Uptown, and South Toledo that can support it. Downtown is not all surrounded by low-income neighborhoods which is far from the truth. Hopefully with the residential build-up in the next decade (i.e. Marina District, Steam Plant, Warehouse District, etc) will encourage retail developments to come afterwards. But however, residents does not necessarily have to to be the only group to support these stores because the convention-goers, hotel patrons, tourist, out-of-towner business people, and employees of the downtown area can support it as well in greater number.

Yes, I agree there should be stores that may not be in the region and it would be a draw to the consumers (i.e. Trader Joe's, Apple store, etc) but if you look at the list of what I've listed. I usually list of what is primarily lacking and due to my personal bias of where I usually spend my money. I bold-faced the ones that is not part of this county:

1) Game Stop Store
2) Books-A-Million or Borders Book Store
3) Starbuck's Coffee
4) Scrambler's Marie Cafe
5) FedEx Kinko's
6) Walgreen's with Pharmacy
7) Radio Shack
8) Panera Bread
9) Cinnabon
10) Chipolte
11) GNC store
12) Ben Franklin Store
13) Steve & Barry's University Sportswear
14) Caribou Coffee
15) Chico's
16) Bath & Body Works
17) Victoria's Secret Beauty
18) Hallmark's Store
19) Apple Computer Store
20) Dakota Watchworks
21) Sunglass Hut
22) Osterman Jewelers
23) LensCrafters
24) Auntie Anne’s Pretzels
25) Great Steak & Potato Co.
26) Jamba Juice
27) Einstein Bros. Bagels
28) Pinkberry
29) Eddie Bauer
30) Eddie Bauer Home Store
31) Aveda Environmental Lifestyle Store
32) Chick-fil-A
33) Crabtree & Evelyn
34) Nordstrom Rack
35) The Andersons Market
36) UT Rockets Store
37) Cheesecake Factory Restaurant

Who wouldn't want a Cheesecake Factory in Toledo????!!!!!!!!!
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Old November 13th, 2007, 09:42 PM   #1083
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^not me. I think it's horribly overpriced. I like Cheesecake, but they price it like gold.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 09:49 PM   #1084
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why drive five miles out of your way to pay to park to shop at the same old stores?

If you live in Toledo, you have to drive out to the suburbs, which is horrible. There needs to be more retail downtown, plain and simple, and there used to be incredible stores downtown up until the 1970's when Tiedke's (one of the best department stores on earth) burnt down.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 11:46 PM   #1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilliod Njaim View Post
why drive five miles out of your way to pay to park to shop at the same old stores?

If you live in Toledo, you have to drive out to the suburbs, which is horrible. There needs to be more retail downtown, plain and simple, and there used to be incredible stores downtown up until the 1970's when Tiedke's (one of the best department stores on earth) burnt down.
I don't know Toledo nearly as well as you do, but in my brief time here, the neighborhoods surrounding downtown do not seem to be ones that would support (a)typical mall stores Downtown, especially since there are so many other failing malls in the city. Without traffic downtown, why invest? The Columbus mall seemed to fail for that reason, and the only reason that the Indianapolis Circle Centre is still vibrant is because of the regular heavy convention traffic. What would the consumer source of a revived retail Portside be? Frankly, outside of the Old West End, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of disposable income with a three mile radius of Portside, and the hotel business downtown doesn't appear overly healthy. I could be wrong, of course. It's happened before.

A Ben Franklin would be a great store to have downtown, if there is traffic. I love the one in Bowling Green.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 11:49 PM   #1086
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Downtown Retail

I think you are sadly mistaken. I like in south toledo and for me to drive to Franklin Park or Fallen Timbers it takes a huge chunk out of my time. If there were stores in downtown i would shop at the without a doubt. Obviously the City of Toledo is trying to establish a more retail type scene with the Marina District. Also, the ARENA is going to work wonders. Look at the Mud hens... Look how many bars and residential buildings opened up. The reason stores are afraid to open up is because during the winter people dont really like to go downtown...UNTIL NOW, we will have things going on all year round and when the hockey team because as famous as the Storm people will be comming from all over to see Toledo. This arena isnt just something else to do its more of a ripple effect. In 2009 when it opens we will see bars, residential, and retail opening up with the assurance of customers all year round due to the arena. We are all very unpatient because we all know that when it comes its going to retell a story we thought we knew about downtown.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 12:33 AM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetoledo View Post
I think you are sadly mistaken. I like in south toledo and for me to drive to Franklin Park or Fallen Timbers it takes a huge chunk out of my time. If there were stores in downtown i would shop at the without a doubt. Obviously the City of Toledo is trying to establish a more retail type scene with the Marina District. Also, the ARENA is going to work wonders. Look at the Mud hens... Look how many bars and residential buildings opened up. The reason stores are afraid to open up is because during the winter people dont really like to go downtown...UNTIL NOW, we will have things going on all year round and when the hockey team because as famous as the Storm people will be comming from all over to see Toledo. This arena isnt just something else to do its more of a ripple effect. In 2009 when it opens we will see bars, residential, and retail opening up with the assurance of customers all year round due to the arena. We are all very unpatient because we all know that when it comes its going to retell a story we thought we knew about downtown.
Of course, I HOPE you are right - I would personally go out of my way to support downtown businesses. I just am trying to make sense of why downtown retail has been dying, and dead in Toledo, and what other cities have done to revive it. Isn't there a mall in Oregon?
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Old November 14th, 2007, 03:58 AM   #1088
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Downtown Retail

People have this superficial, narrowminded, opinion on DTT. They think that all the poor people are there and since O-I isnt there anymore no buisnesses are there. REASON BEING. The Toledo Blade. When do you hear anything good about the Downtown except buisness going out and if there is something going in then its in the second news on the back pages. The media needs to be our source of revival. Mud Hens get people down there (from all over) and they see only one part of DTT, the warehouse disctrict. Hopefully the arena will open up the eyes of Toledoan to see that this is our downtown. NO one can revive it but us. I wish Toledo City Council could read these threads and see our opinions, what we need, what we want, and what we have to have in order to go downthere.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 06:38 AM   #1089
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The Boulevard at Arrowhead Park

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this new strip center located just behind the Cracker Barrel in Maumee (it appears to be part of a larger development connected with the new Marriott hotel opposite to the Phase I building).

http://www.tomahawkco.com/

No word on who's going in, but the PDF link shows the other Phases and how large the shopping center will be -- looks like 3-4 more phases to come).

I'm not a fan of these things, but at least Maumee has significant covenants in place to control design, signage heights / styles, buried power lines, etc. and make the structures look semi-appealing.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 08:58 AM   #1090
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Of course, I HOPE you are right - I would personally go out of my way to support downtown businesses. I just am trying to make sense of why downtown retail has been dying, and dead in Toledo, and what other cities have done to revive it. Isn't there a mall in Oregon?

Oregon doesn't have a bona fide mall, just some strip malls, and generally trashy ones at that. Oregon also lacks any real downtown (though half of it is an extension of heavily urbanized East Toledo).

People have this superficial, narrowminded, opinion on DTT. They think that all the poor people are there and since O-I isnt there anymore no buisnesses are there.

Those people would be called suburbanites, particularly of the Anthony Wayne, Perrysburg, and Sylvania variety.

I think you are sadly mistaken. I like in south toledo and for me to drive to Franklin Park or Fallen Timbers it takes a huge chunk out of my time. If there were stores in downtown i would shop at the without a doubt.

Me too, and I agree the central city residents are screwed by having to drive to Franklin Park or some other suburban trash. Downtown used to be THE retail hub of Northwest Ohio. Unfortunately, suburbanization took its toll over the last few decades, and downtown now lacks a major department store. Downtown retail was dominant all the way up until 1970, so there's no reason it can't work again. Once people move back to the downtown and adjacent neighborhoods, retail will follow. Retail does follow population (except in suburban lifestyle centers), and the population of downtown is growing. We need more development focusing on pedestrians/mass transit, not automobiles. Unfortunately, in the heavily car-dependent Midwest, this will take a lot of time, political will, and initial investment. Hopefully hideous suburban wrecks like Franklin Park will one day be things of the past. We'll go back to what Summit Street used to be like before urban renewal.

If Toledo can ever get that passenger rail line built between UT and Downtown, that would do wonders for the viability of retail establishments downtown.

Last edited by Pilliod Njaim; November 14th, 2007 at 09:11 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:39 PM   #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetoledo View Post
People have this superficial, narrowminded, opinion on DTT. They think that all the poor people are there and since O-I isnt there anymore no buisnesses are there. REASON BEING. The Toledo Blade. When do you hear anything good about the Downtown except buisness going out and if there is something going in then its in the second news on the back pages. The media needs to be our source of revival. Mud Hens get people down there (from all over) and they see only one part of DTT, the warehouse disctrict. Hopefully the arena will open up the eyes of Toledoan to see that this is our downtown. NO one can revive it but us. I wish Toledo City Council could read these threads and see our opinions, what we need, what we want, and what we have to have in order to go downthere.
Ditto a thousand times.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:43 PM   #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddp View Post
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this new strip center located just behind the Cracker Barrel in Maumee (it appears to be part of a larger development connected with the new Marriott hotel opposite to the Phase I building).

http://www.tomahawkco.com/

No word on who's going in, but the PDF link shows the other Phases and how large the shopping center will be -- looks like 3-4 more phases to come).

I'm not a fan of these things, but at least Maumee has significant covenants in place to control design, signage heights / styles, buried power lines, etc. and make the structures look semi-appealing.
ddp thanks for the link to this development and I was just wondering what was going on behind Studio Plus Hotel, Cracker Barrell, and Smokey Bones restaurants. It looks like a pretty big project since it is stretched from Arrowhead Drive to Ford Street running parallel to Dussell. Are they going to be in competition with Suffolk Square (North of Dussell along Ford) since they've really grown in the past ten years. I'm curious of who's who will be occupying this new development?
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:45 PM   #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilliod Njaim View Post
Of course, I HOPE you are right - I would personally go out of my way to support downtown businesses. I just am trying to make sense of why downtown retail has been dying, and dead in Toledo, and what other cities have done to revive it. Isn't there a mall in Oregon?

Oregon doesn't have a bona fide mall, just some strip malls, and generally trashy ones at that. Oregon also lacks any real downtown (though half of it is an extension of heavily urbanized East Toledo).

People have this superficial, narrowminded, opinion on DTT. They think that all the poor people are there and since O-I isnt there anymore no buisnesses are there.

Those people would be called suburbanites, particularly of the Anthony Wayne, Perrysburg, and Sylvania variety.

I think you are sadly mistaken. I like in south toledo and for me to drive to Franklin Park or Fallen Timbers it takes a huge chunk out of my time. If there were stores in downtown i would shop at the without a doubt.

Me too, and I agree the central city residents are screwed by having to drive to Franklin Park or some other suburban trash. Downtown used to be THE retail hub of Northwest Ohio. Unfortunately, suburbanization took its toll over the last few decades, and downtown now lacks a major department store. Downtown retail was dominant all the way up until 1970, so there's no reason it can't work again. Once people move back to the downtown and adjacent neighborhoods, retail will follow. Retail does follow population (except in suburban lifestyle centers), and the population of downtown is growing. We need more development focusing on pedestrians/mass transit, not automobiles. Unfortunately, in the heavily car-dependent Midwest, this will take a lot of time, political will, and initial investment. Hopefully hideous suburban wrecks like Franklin Park will one day be things of the past. We'll go back to what Summit Street used to be like before urban renewal.

If Toledo can ever get that passenger rail line built between UT and Downtown, that would do wonders for the viability of retail establishments downtown.
Ditto again. IMO, a passenger rail line has to be supported by a sales tax county-wide not this fragmented, property tax that is supported by a few communities. It truly has to be a regional effort to make this happen. Last but not least, Oregon is utter trash because you can't find a single reason to be there unless it's St. Charles Hospital or Maumee Bay Park.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:48 PM   #1094
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Downtown Arena Development Update

Deleted due to Toledo Blade's request.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 01:49 PM   #1095
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FedEx Expansion Development Update

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Old November 14th, 2007, 04:14 PM   #1096
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Easy on Oregon...... It might be set up weird but it is a nice place to live in and we have the largest population for a toledo suburb besides bedford area i think.... With a downtown or not Oregon will survive and grow.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #1097
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Easy on Oregon...... It might be set up weird but it is a nice place to live in and we have the largest population for a toledo suburb besides bedford area i think.... With a downtown or not Oregon will survive and grow.
MudHen419, no offense intended for the folks of Oregon or the town itself. So I apologize if I ruffled the feathers a bit extreme. As in urban planning professional or city lovers, Oregon defies against all "urbane rules" of what a city or town shall be.

Yes you are right, about the largest population for Toledo suburb in Ohio and Oregon will survive without a downtown, but I am wondering if Oregon is actually Toledo and is downtown Toledo actually Oregon's as well as much as most folks would not admit to it?
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Old November 14th, 2007, 08:13 PM   #1098
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Last but not least, Oregon is utter trash because you can't find a single reason to be there unless it's St. Charles Hospital or Maumee Bay Park.

There's also Toledo Harbor, which is huge and very impressive for people into shipping. Oregon has a few other beaches (private) and some boat launches/marinas as well. There are good reasons to visit Oregon, but shopping is not one of them. The lack of a downtown (like you see in Maumee, Perrysburg, or old Sylvania) is a big negative too. Oregon has its gritty and cool urban part, but the suburban part is pretty ugly.

I love the accents east of the Maumee. It seems to me (I don't live in Toledo anymore) that the Great Lakes accent is much stronger east of the river than west of the river. East Toledo, Oregon, Rossford, etc. residents sound very much like people from Detroit and Windsor. It's a cool accent, and I never noticed until I moved out of Toledo and came back to visit. The areas west of the river (most of metro Toledo) speak with a softer version of the accent, though I still notice it in most people, particularly on "O" and "A" sounds. I always notice it on the phrase "OK". I never thought Toledo had any sort of northern accent when I was growing up, but after living elsewhere, I do notice a slight accent that's common in the Great Lakes cities. Findlay is the city where people speak totally flat English with no regional variation. Once you get to Lima or anything south, you start hearing southern accents. By the Ohio River, they can be very strong.

Last edited by Pilliod Njaim; November 15th, 2007 at 04:47 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2007, 08:26 PM   #1099
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Yes you are right, about the largest population for Toledo suburb in Ohio and Oregon will survive without a downtown, but I am wondering if Oregon is actually Toledo and is downtown Toledo actually Oregon's as well as much as most folks would not admit to it?

Oregon's connection has always been with East Side neighborhoods, which is the norm in the eastern metro area. The East Side (including Oregon and Rossford) has a strong identity, much of it tied to its strong Hungarian and Polish heritage- even stronger than in areas west of the river. I've always pictured the eastern metro area as sort of another city that's right next to Toledo, but independent. It's like the Duluth-Superior setup.

The largest Ohio suburb of Toledo would be Sylvania Township, then Springfield Township, not Oregon. Sylvania City is the same size as Oregon (both about 20,000 people). The largest satellite cities in the metro area are Bowling Green and Monroe (some consider Adrian a satellite too). The thing is, if you combine Perryburg Township with its city and Sylvania Township with its city, both are huge. Sylvania would be around 50,000 people and Perrysburg would be around 35,000.

Bedford is THE largest suburb in Ohio or Michigan. It's about 30,000 people, but that includes Lambertville and Temperance. The true township part is only about 15,000 people.

Ditto again. IMO, a passenger rail line has to be supported by a sales tax county-wide

Of course. If it came to vote, I think it could pass since too Toledo is 2/3's of Lucas County. I know UT has said it would help fund a line between main campus and downtown as well.

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Old November 14th, 2007, 11:50 PM   #1100
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The lack of a downtown (like you see in Maumee, Perrysburg, or old Sylvania) is a big negative too. Oregon has its gritty but cool urban part, but the suburban part is pretty ugly.

Im sorry to say that Maumee does have a downtown and a very sucessful one at that. Almost at full ocupancy with a wide range of bars, shops, and resturaunts.
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