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Old December 20th, 2007, 03:54 PM   #1221
ilovetoledo
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Apparently clock towers are in what about in promanade park????
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Old December 21st, 2007, 03:17 AM   #1222
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I hear that Hytower Building on St. Clair & Jefferson is up for sale for a cool million.

I know that it is up for sale and i dont really want the solar company to go in there i would rather them build a new skyscrapper and add to Toledo's collection but in the same respect i want somebody to take over that building. We need to chew what we have first before we go have 2nds. Toledo has a bright future and if you werent ever interested in Toledo develpements then maybe you should get involved now because we are on the virge a MAJOR economical change.
A cool million? It's sad, really.

The view of Toledo and Ohio from the outside.

Houses around Toledo sell for more than $1 million.

Let's say that it costs $10 million for renovations (asbestos, aesthetics, and please god do something about THAT parking garage) for 437,500 sq ft of prime office space. From all the rumblings from wanna-be politicians and others about tearing the building down, it almost doesn't make sense for that kind of talk. A structurally sound high rise. Just tear it down?


$1,000,000 / 437,500 sq ft = $2.29 / sq ft

$10,000,000 / 437,500 sq ft = $22.86 / sq ft

Duplex in Metro Toledo - $100,000 / 2400 sq ft = $43.75 / sq ft

Chances are, new home prices in Toledo are closer to the $100 / sq ft range.


Now I know residential and commercial markets are two completely different animals. But there is no company in the world that wants to purchase a skyscraper for $2.29-$22.86 / sq ft?

The laws of supply and demand don't apply in Toledo. I thought if 1/4-1/2 of the office space in downtown Toledo (obviously One Seagate and Hytower count) is vacant, how does the cost to lease not dwindle down to the owners' break-even points?

As for a new skyscraper, let's just focus on filling up what we've got. Then we can stick the next one in between HCR Manor Care and One Seagate.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 04:48 AM   #1223
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I'm not an expert, but I think it would cost substantially more than 10 million to refab that building. Getting rid of the asbestos alone will be an enormous task. Once they get it out, they have to find somewhere to put it - hazardous waste disposal is very expensive.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 05:26 AM   #1224
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I'm not an expert, but I think it would cost substantially more than 10 million to refab that building. Getting rid of the asbestos alone will be an enormous task. Once they get it out, they have to find somewhere to put it - hazardous waste disposal is very expensive.
Wasn't the asbestos already removed? Or did I dream that?
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Old December 21st, 2007, 06:15 AM   #1225
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I'm not an expert, but I think it would cost substantially more than 10 million to refab that building. Getting rid of the asbestos alone will be an enormous task. Once they get it out, they have to find somewhere to put it - hazardous waste disposal is very expensive.
Last I heard it still has asbestos. So I imagine it still does. Unless they've been sneaking it out in the dark of the night.

Hytower/Fiberglas Tower appraised at $4 million.

2007 Blade article says asking price was lowered to $7 million.

For some reason, the RGP wanted it torn down for between $10-12 million (that would be building demolition and disposal).

Another article states that Toledo Trust and the Tower were both sold to Eyde for $4.5 million combined.

Rumors swirled that it would cost $2-$3 million to abate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are the numbers, take what you will. It's not like this would be the first building to have this done.

Even at $20 million, I can't see how the Tower is not a deal compared to other buildings of similar size and age.

The real difficulty is bringing in outside companies to fill the vacancies and not enough homegrown corporations (the companies that first inhabited these structures). Outside companies coming in want to move in and most likely want to rent the space (O-I vacated One Seagate post-lease and O-C vacated the Tower).

If there is a company that commits to the space for a sustained amount of time, there would be no problem getting the building up to speed.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 06:46 AM   #1226
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From all the rumblings from wanna-be politicians and others about tearing the building down, it almost doesn't make sense for that kind of talk. A structurally sound high rise. Just tear it down?

Asbestos removal is estimated at $2-3 million dollars. That's not that much money for a building 400 feet tall and nearly 450,000 square feet. The cost of a teardown would be at least $10 million dollars. For $10 million dollars, you can remove all the asbestos in the building and do a fair amount of remodeling as well. It makes absolutely no sense to tear down the tower. Whoever proposed that is insane. Demolition would be paid for by the TAXPAYERS, and you can be damn sure there would be an uproar if Toledo wants to claim fame for the largest demolition in Ohio history. Honestly, most the demolition scare happened when the arena was being proposed, and it was more media fear mongering than an actual realistic option. The tower has asbestos and a few cracked pipes. That's it. It will cost less to fix that than tear down the building. These kind of buildings have been renovated all over the country, and in cities in far worse shape than Toledo.

Wasn't the asbestos already removed? Or did I dream that?

Ufortunately, no, though asbestos HAS been removed from almost all the other buildings downtown. The Fiberglas Tower has a relatively easy asbestos removal considering it's a nearly 450,000 square foot building. It has an open-floor design, and remodeling would not be overly expensive. The problem is in the pipe insulation as I outlined earlier in this thread. It certainly can be done, and I sure as hell hope it will be done. It's a vital building in the skyline and it's a good design considering the era it was built. It also has its own parking garage which is a huge plus for a company wanting to move in there.

Even at $20 million, I can't see how the Tower is not a deal compared to other buildings of similar size and age.

Whoever buys the tower is getting a steal. Its price is listed as negotiable, and for under $3 million, all the asbestos can be removed.

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/LoopLink...Property+Types

I'm not an expert, but I think it would cost substantially more than 10 million to refab that building. Getting rid of the asbestos alone will be an enormous task.

Not really. Asbestos abatement can be done for one fifth the cost of a demolition. Asbestos removal has been done all over the country, and there are plenty of buildings in Toledo that have had it done too.

please god do something about THAT parking garage

The garage is a big selling point for large corporations, and it has space for stores at street level (revolutionary at the time it was built). Corporate workers tend to be commuters, so they'd highly value their own garage adjacent to their building. A lot of people are so lazy, they don't even want to walk one city block. America has a walking problem, not a parking problem.

Last edited by Pilliod Njaim; December 21st, 2007 at 07:01 AM.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 01:35 PM   #1227
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Old December 21st, 2007, 01:39 PM   #1228
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Old December 21st, 2007, 03:40 PM   #1229
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please god do something about THAT parking garage

The garage is a big selling point for large corporations, and it has space for stores at street level (revolutionary at the time it was built). Corporate workers tend to be commuters, so they'd highly value their own garage adjacent to their building. A lot of people are so lazy, they don't even want to walk one city block. America has a walking problem, not a parking problem


I didn't mean tear down the parking garage. Please remodel it. It looks dated well beyond its years, unlike the Tower itself. I assume the structure is basic steel and concrete construction, and the facade is steel paneling (?). With the garage being structurally sound, a modern concrete facade would make the building look light years newer. I'm not a fan of the checkerboard design nor the faux arches. I'm sure all was OK when the Federal building shielded it, but it was never intended to be in a riverfront view of the city.

Maybe if I get some time, I'll whip up a design for what it could look like.

The main office buildings in Toledo all have their own parking garage (One Seagate, National City, Tower).
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Old December 21st, 2007, 07:26 PM   #1230
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I'm sure all was OK when the Federal building shielded it, but it was never intended to be in a riverfront view of the city.

Good point, and I think there should be some infill built across the street in the grass field where the Federal Building once stood. If they build something there, it will block the view of the garage and help give Summit Street the "urban canyon effect" that's missing on that block.

Please remodel it.

Well, I'm of the theory that all parking garages are ugly (though of course light years better than city destroying surface lots). I'm sure putting a new facade up wouldn't cost that much money, but the tower needs to have its asbestos removed before anyone should think about putting money into the garage.

Also, did you know that some of the crazy people who talked about tearing down the Fiberglas Tower for the arena project also would have had to tear down the historic Toledo Trust Building as well!? What insanity, especially considering the Toledo Trust Tower has been renovated and is now Riverfront Apartments. Tearing down the Fiberglas Tower was never a real option...

The only realistic options were the current site where the arena is getting built, or the empty grass lot where the Federal Building once stood.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 09:23 PM   #1231
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Apparently clock towers are in what about in promanade park????
I won't lie. I've never been a big fan of Promenade Park. It has always seem like it was just a "Hey we knocked down the Federal Building, oh now it's a park". I've seen a concept by one of those "Downtown Toledo Development" or "Downtown Toledo Incorporated" or something where there was a whole environment built for promenade park.

But I also wasn't a fan of an ampitheater either, because I thought who wants to go to an ampitheater? But doing a little research for my blog, I came across an ampitheater in Hartford, CT which looks spectatular.

Now I think something like this could be built downtown (marina district, promendae park, portside). Hell, I'd go since they don't have outdoor concerts at Fifth Third Field. The Zoo would be the only competition.

Toledo city has about 300,000 compared to Hartford's 125,000 BUT as normally the case with Metro areas, Toledo counts 654,000 people while Hartford metro is closer to 1.2 million.

Sorry if the image is HUGE.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 11:43 PM   #1232
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Toledo should probably look to its peer cities/metropolitan areas for ideas - among the most successful of them appear to be Madison, WI; Chattanooga, Charleston SC, Portland ME and Des Moines, and Knoxville; and some other beautiful (but perhaps struggling) cities like Syracuse, Springfield and Worcester MA. Even though Hartford city is half the size of Toledo, its center city can eventually support amenities for a city at least twice as large as Toledo.
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 12:37 AM   #1233
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I won't lie. I've never been a big fan of Promenade Park. It has always seem like it was just a "Hey we knocked down the Federal Building, oh now it's a park".

That is not Promenade Park. Promenade Park was built on surface lots adjacent to the river. It was a HUGE improvement. The Federal Building Site was never meant to be part of the park.

Toledo should probably look to its peer cities/metropolitan areas for ideas - among the most successful of them appear to be Madison, WI; Chattanooga, Charleston SC, Portland ME and Des Moines, and Knoxville

Toledo is a much larger urbanized area than those you listed. It's also a larger market city. Portland, Maine, Chattanooga, and Madison are tiny compared to Toledo. A much better example would be Grand Rapids, Michigan. The place has the same urbanized area as Toledo and it runs circles around every city in Ohio. Grand Rapids is more Toledo's peer, but even then, you need to be looking at geography, not population. Toledo could emulate Savannah's glorious riverfront, and it has the marshes and beaches nearby the city as well. Savannah is actually the American city most geographically similar to Toledo. Both Savannah and Toledo are flat, have large harbors, have their downtowns upriver, and are adjacent to many swamps, marshes, and beaches. Buffalo is another good example, though it suffers the same Lake Erie depression as Detroit, Toledo, and Cleveland. Charleston is also similar geographically, but the core city is very small and it's a much more disconnected metropolitan area.

Also, there's no point in comparing college towns like Madison to Toledo. Toledo will never have the kind of life Madison has at its core/campus area. Madison blows the entire state of Ohio out of the water. Madison and Ann Arbor are the two small cities that dominate the Midwest in terms of health, pedestrian activity, nightlife, and culture. They are two of the best college towns the world over.

Toledo should be looking at Savannah when comparing geography, and Grand Rapids when comparing urbanized area and population distribution. Grand Rapids is the model mid-sized Midwestern city in terms of urban development. It makes Detroit look bad, and it makes every city in Ohio look terrible.

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Old December 22nd, 2007, 01:35 AM   #1234
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With the closure of COSI, it's clear Toledo's downtown is dead and it's not coming back. It's time to focus on the other 79 square miles of the city.
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 05:01 AM   #1235
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With the closure of COSI, it's clear Toledo's downtown is dead and it's not coming back. It's time to focus on the other 79 square miles of the city.


Obviously. While COSI was a nice attraction to have downtown, it's main purpose was school field trips and limited out of town attraction as compared to, say, the Toledo Zoo. Being in Columbus, I know you have your own COSI, so you understand that the closure of COSI is not a DOOMSDAY scenario for Toledo.

Sure it sucks it had to close, and maybe it can donate it's equipment and displays to the schools. COSI missed the shot to be sponsored by corporations and decided to take the taxpayer route.

But I will assume that was sarcasm.
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 07:51 AM   #1236
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With the closure of COSI, it's clear Toledo's downtown is dead and it's not coming back. It's time to focus on the other 79 square miles of the city.

Absolutely not. Downtown is more alive than it's been in 20 years. COSI is field trips, that's it. And unlike COLUMBUS, taxpayers did not want to put much funding towards COSI. Toledo showed fiscal restraint, which is not exactly a bad thing right now.

Downtown and the adjacent Warehouse District have been improving steadily for a decade now- the reopened Valentine Theater, the Mud Hens stadium, numerous bars and clubs, tons of apartments, infill townhouses, etc., etc.

The population in downtown Toledo is growing and is larger than Columbus, Ohio's downtown. In Toledo's core square mile (about 5,000 people), Toledo has as many people as Columbus, Ohio's core three square miles. If you want to talk about dead downtowns, look no further than your own city. Cleveland is by far the healthiest big city downtown in Ohio due to its much larger living population. Toledo, Cincinnati, and Columbus are far behind. Columbus is the least functional downtown in the state and has Ohio's highest vacancy rate at over 21%. It's also the third highest vacancy rate in the ENTIRE nation, and worse than Detroit: http://www.bdcnetwork.com/article/CA6426341.html

Your comments are without any factual backing. You obviously overlooked Bustown's legendary vacancy rate, and failed to compare it to Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Toledo. Columbus has Ohio's highest vacancy rate, and it has had that unsavory title for quite some time. Cincinnati is actually the only large Ohio city that is near the national average. Everyone else is in worse shape.

Downtown Columbus is mainly for suburban commuters, plain and simple. While it's "great" it has most of the state's ugliest buildings (Nationwide, Rhodes, AEP, state capitol, etc., etc.), they doesn't really help downtown. Suburban commuters work there, not live there. The wide, high-speed streets, the block-sized surface lots, and the lack of living population are serious negatives in downtown Columbus. Short North, Italian Village, German Village, and the University District all slaughter downtown Columbus. The area around downtown is much more impressive than downtown itself.

Being in Columbus, I know you have your own COSI, so you understand that the closure of COSI is not a DOOMSDAY scenario for Toledo.

Yep, and it's more of a taxpayer COSI, so it will take longer to shut down. They've had serious issues just like Toledo has seen, and Columbus COSI has closed certain days of the week. While it sucks to see Toledo's COSI close, Columbus is having all the same problems Toledo had. Columbus COSI already has to close on Mondays AND Tuesdays. Toledo COSI did not get that bad before it decided to close. Columbus COSI is actually doing worse business, but it gets more tax money. That won't last...

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Old December 22nd, 2007, 04:17 PM   #1237
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With the closure of COSI, it's clear Toledo's downtown is dead and it's not coming back. It's time to focus on the other 79 square miles of the city.
I sense sarcasm but if it isn't then it's ignorance. Downtown is alive with or without COSi period.
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 04:17 PM   #1238
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 06:41 PM   #1239
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Toledo is a much larger urbanized area than those you listed. It's also a larger market city. Portland, Maine, Chattanooga, and Madison are tiny compared to Toledo. A much better example would be Grand Rapids, Michigan. The place has the same urbanized area as Toledo and it runs circles around every city in Ohio. Grand Rapids is more Toledo's peer, but even then, you need to be looking at geography, not population. Toledo could emulate Savannah's glorious riverfront, and it has the marshes and beaches nearby the city as well. Savannah is actually the American city most geographically similar to Toledo. Both Savannah and Toledo are flat, have large harbors, have their downtowns upriver, and are adjacent to many swamps, marshes, and beaches. Buffalo is another good example, though it suffers the same Lake Erie depression as Detroit, Toledo, and Cleveland. Charleston is also similar geographically, but the core city is very small and it's a much more disconnected metropolitan area.

Also, there's no point in comparing college towns like Madison to Toledo. Toledo will never have the kind of life Madison has at its core/campus area. Madison blows the entire state of Ohio out of the water. Madison and Ann Arbor are the two small cities that dominate the Midwest in terms of health, pedestrian activity, nightlife, and culture. They are two of the best college towns the world over.

Toledo should be looking at Savannah when comparing geography, and Grand Rapids when comparing urbanized area and population distribution. Grand Rapids is the model mid-sized Midwestern city in terms of urban development. It makes Detroit look bad, and it makes every city in Ohio look terrible.
I like your comparison to Savannah, but even though geographically there are similarities, culturally and historically I don't know that there is much comparison. I've never been to Savannah, but it doesn't strike me as an industrial city like Toledo.

Regarding city sizes, the cities I listed are, for the most part, peer to Toledo. I don't want to get into a pissing match over Toledo's brawn, but Toledo is roughly the 70th largest media market and urbanized area in the US - on par with Knoxville, Worcester, Grand Rapids in terms of urbanized area (though significantly larger than Des Moines, Chattanooga and Madison). Comparing US media markets, Toledo is larger than Charleston SC, Chattanooga and Madison, but Im guessing Toledo's proximity to Detroit lessens its reach in comparison to Knoxville and Grand Rapids, according to this list.

In comparison, it appears that Toledo's urbanized area is larger than its media market should suggest - again, probably because of Detroit. I was driving around the city late last night - downtown looked great from afar. I really wish there was a public viewing platform somewhere, above the treetops, to see the city sprawled out. Do any of the downtown skyscrapers have public areas up top?
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 10:05 PM   #1240
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Meh. I'm not going to defend Columbus. I just go to school here.

COSI is something that brought middle class people downtown all year round. The loss of COSI is a big loss to downtown boosters.

I think downtown is important, but it seems to take up 99% of the attention of city affairs, while the rest of the city falls back even further and further with population and job loss.

I feel like a city Toledo could learn a lot from is Ft. Wayne, just down the Maumee River. It's 80 square miles, and it's growing - strongly - in population. It's classic rustbelt with a lot of auto industry, but at the same time it's got new economy job growth as well. Why couldn't Toledo have replicated some of that success? It's in the same region, though Toledo's the one at the center of major interstates, lake, and a big international airport nearby. Ft. Wayne has fewer natural strengths IMO than Toledo, but it's boosters are obviously doing a much better job selling them.

Last edited by Paddington; December 23rd, 2007 at 03:43 AM.
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