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Old December 23rd, 2007, 07:23 PM   #1241
ilovetoledo
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Toledo vs. Columbus

Meh. I'm not going to defend Columbus. I just go to school here.

COSI is something that brought middle class people downtown all year round. The loss of COSI is a big loss to downtown boosters.

I think downtown is important, but it seems to take up 99% of the attention of city affairs, while the rest of the city falls back even further and further with population and job loss.

I feel like a city Toledo could learn a lot from is Ft. Wayne, just down the Maumee River. It's 80 square miles, and it's growing - strongly - in population. It's classic rustbelt with a lot of auto industry, but at the same time it's got new economy job growth as well. Why couldn't Toledo have replicated some of that success? It's in the same region, though Toledo's the one at the center of major interstates, lake, and a big international airport nearby. Ft. Wayne has fewer natural strengths IMO than Toledo, but it's boosters are obviously doing a much better job selling them.


Toledo is far more advanced than Ft. Wayne. We dont need to take tips from cities with smaller sizes. Toledo is a growing city not a city with the population of Ft. Wayne. Toledo needs to take tips with much larger populations. And compared to Downtown Columbus, Toledo rocks... I'm sorry i've been to Columbus and in the downtown and i really wasnt that impressed. Toledo can offer a much bigger selection of entertainment. And another problem with Columbus is they cant decide on an issue. When Toledoans come together we come together as a city. Thats what i like so much about our population numbers. Everyone wants the dirt on TOLEDO thats why people from Columbus are checking out our blogs because you are jealous of what we have. Im sorry to say it but in 10-20 years Toledo may trump Columbus...
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Old December 23rd, 2007, 11:08 PM   #1242
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Are you joking? Toledo hasn't grown in decades. What's worse, even the metro area has been flat since around 1970, which is pretty bad considering even places like Detroit and St. Louis have at least had suburban growth comfortably exceeding the city's losses.

Ft. Wayne is not that much smaller than Toledo (roughly 2/3 the city/metro population). That's actually a more realistic comparison than Toledo vs. Columbus (over twice the size city/metro). Ft. Wayne is also in the same region, with similar demographics/geographics, but is managing to grow.
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Old December 24th, 2007, 09:41 AM   #1243
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OK

Are you serious. Toledo has gotten more national attention in the past 3 weeks than you have in the past 3 months. Oh wait, you have I am sorry, you have one of the worst vancancy rates in the nation. Toledo is growing buddy. And for you to sit in Columbus and judge us doesnt mean anything. You dont know the first thing about Toledo until you live here. We are growing in ways that you dont even know. When the renewable energy comes Toledo you will see what this city has to offer. Until then dont talk about some issue that you have no idea about. I dont know all about Columbus and you dont know everything about Toledo. Ur satistics from 2005 are useless. Toledo is such an awesome community. We have an awesome zoo that is among the Top 10 in the country. I think Columbus is a really nice city i just dont see how you can get on here and start bad mouthing Toledo when you dont know the first thing about it. Its not about what city is better its about how we can maintain and grow as a community. Toledo is growing and im sure Columbus is too. We both have great cities we just need to look at what we've got and be greatful that we have what we have...
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Old December 24th, 2007, 09:44 AM   #1244
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Plus cosi was on Riverfront property which can be used for much better things than cosi. That building should have never housed cosi in the first place. How often do you find riverfront property like that now of days? Cosi was more of a drain on the community. It was always stuggling and it wanted help from the tax payers which dont like to support a buisness that cant support itself. Toledo may be a little upset that Cosi is leaving but we are saving our downtown from major hardships that would've erected in the years to come. My advice is to get out of Cosi Columbus while you can.
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Old December 26th, 2007, 10:03 AM   #1245
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I feel like a city Toledo could learn a lot from is Ft. Wayne, just down the Maumee River. It's 80 square miles, and it's growing - strongly - in population.

Fort Wayne still annexes suburbs, so it's not "growing" (it's doing what Columbus is doing). Fort Wayne has just managed to annex more suburbs than other cities. I have nothing against the place, but it does seriously lack the downtown, warehouse district, and nearby core neighborhoods Toledo has. Toledo has a much better downtown and superior historic districts. There is nothing like Old West End or Vistula in Fort Wayne. There really isn't anything as urban as East Toledo actually. The Maumee River is also a joke in Fort Wayne and is more of a creek like you'd see in downtown Columbus. I'd say that both cities are not reaching their potential, but Toledo overall has a hell of a lot more potential due to location, natural resources, and older building stock.

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Old December 26th, 2007, 10:07 AM   #1246
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And compared to Downtown Columbus, Toledo rocks... I'm sorry i've been to Columbus and in the downtown and i really wasnt that impressed. Toledo can offer a much bigger selection of entertainment. And another problem with Columbus is they cant decide on an issue.

Downtown Columbus is hurt by the surrounding districts which all are better urban neighborhoods. Esentially, downtown Columbus is dethroned by Short North-University District. Downtown Toledo is more of the "city hub", though of course a lot more still needs to be done. That's the way it is in every major Ohio city. Cleveland is overall the healthiest downtown and it supports the largest living and working population by far. Toledo has tons of potential though, and it was smarter by not cutting the city off from the waterfront.

When the renewable energy comes Toledo you will see what this city has to offer.

Toledo may not be a white collar city like Columbus, but it's the growing hub of "green collar" in the Midwest.

Are you joking? Toledo hasn't grown in decades. What's worse, even the metro area has been flat since around 1970, which is pretty bad considering even places like Detroit and St. Louis have at least had suburban growth comfortably exceeding the city's losses.

Monroe County and Lenawee County should be added to Toledo's MSA, period. Lenawee is already part of the Toledo market, and most of Monroe County's growth/sprawl has been from Toledo. The "region" is closer to a million people, and though it has grown slowly, it has still grown. Both Detroit and Toledo are growing, but slowly due to the obvious problems of the auto industry. I really wish Jeep could be seperate from Chrysler...

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Old December 26th, 2007, 10:31 AM   #1247
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I like your comparison to Savannah, but even though geographically there are similarities, culturally and historically I don't know that there is much comparison. I've never been to Savannah, but it doesn't strike me as an industrial city like Toledo.

Savannah is heavily industrial. It's similar to Toledo, but with a much better/healthier urban core- an urban core that is better than almost any city in America. Savannah has that Hollywood romantic image and is a major tourism hub in the Southeastern United States, but its backbone has always been shipping. Like Toledo is one of the largest ports on the Great Lakes, Savannah is one of the largest ports in the Southeast. Upriver from downtown, Savannah has massive industrial areas, and there are numerous cranes and smokestacks. The Savannah you see in media is the gorgeous 1800's Savannah which truly is one of America's most beautiful cities. The Savannah outside of the historic district has a lot of industry like Toledo. Savannah also has a giant cable-stay bridge like Toledo. On top of all that, the rivers look IDENTICAL with practically the same width and color. Culturally, Toledo is grittier, more liberal, and more diverse, while Savannah is just incredibly influenced by tourism and is split black/white down the middle (there are virtually no Hispanic, Middle Eastern, or Eastern European communities like you see in Toledo). Really though, the geographies are quite similar, and Savannah's Riverwalk is the best urban riverfront in America. Toledo HAS the same layout, and it even has an 1800's block with Fort Industry Square. It just needs to the get the thing going and fill in the hole where the Federal Building stood. I see no reason Toledo's riverfront can't be as vibrant as Savannah's riverfront.

Regarding city sizes, the cities I listed are, for the most part, peer to Toledo. I don't want to get into a pissing match over Toledo's brawn, but Toledo is roughly the 70th largest media market and urbanized area in the US - on par with Knoxville, Worcester, Grand Rapids in terms of urbanized area (though significantly larger than Des Moines, Chattanooga and Madison). Comparing US media markets, Toledo is larger than Charleston SC, Chattanooga and Madison, but Im guessing Toledo's proximity to Detroit lessens its reach in comparison to Knoxville and Grand Rapids, according to this list.

Toledo is almost the EXACT same size as Grand Rapids, and that's why I think that's the best example to use. The urbanized areas, the urban core size, the core density, the MSA's, etc. all fall in line. Toledo could very easily support all the amenities Grand Rapids supports. Sure, Grand Rapids doesn't have competition with Detroit, but it's stupid for Toledo to just lay down and let Rock City take away business.

By urbanized area, Toledo is significantly larger than Des Moines, Madison, Knoxville, Charleston, and Chatanooga. It's MUCH denser than most of them too: http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

Toledo's urbanized area is over a half million people with a density of about 2500 people per square mile while Charleston and Knoxville are around 400,000 people at densities well under 2000 people per square mile. Toledo is larger and denser than those urban areas.

Chatanooga doesn't even belong in the discussion since it's not similar to Toledo in any way, shape, or form. Ditto with Madison since it's a college town. Knoxville shouldn't be on here either. I can see an argument for Charleston since it's on water, but still, it's not as similar as Savannah geographically. Grand Rapids is of course the most similar in size.

Omaha would be another good example of a city similar to Toledo in size. It also is an agribusiness and food processing hub like Toledo, but it lacks water. Water is Toledo's greatest asset and is what sets it apart from many other Midwestern cities its size. Toledo's potential is ridiculous- a major river, a Great Lake, a major shipping port, the nation's third largest rail hub, two of the nation's busiest higways, a major cargo airport, one of the world's best art museums, one of the world's best and most complete zoos, etc., etc. It also is loaded with great recreation nearby in the metro with Port Clinton, Put-in-Bay, East Harbor, etc. The Islands/East Harbor/Marblehead area is equivelant to Savannah's Tybee Island, just colder but still very swimmable for four months of the year.

In comparison, it appears that Toledo's urbanized area is larger than its media market should suggest - again, probably because of Detroit. I was driving around the city late last night - downtown looked great from afar. I really wish there was a public viewing platform somewhere, above the treetops, to see the city sprawled out. Do any of the downtown skyscrapers have public areas up top?

It is, and yes, Toledo's market is hurt by Detroit. Monroe County is technically part of Detroit's media market (DMA), but I can tell you that at least half of the population up there is more Toledo oriented. Monroe County will probably eventually be added to Toledo's MSA and DMA. Almost all the growth/hellish sprawl in the county right now is suburban Toledo. Lenawee County is already part of Toledo's DMA (which is about 825,000 people), but not the MSA (which is 660,000 people). Add Monroe and Lenawee, and Toledo's MSA and DMA will approach 1 million people.

There are unfortunately no public viewing decks in Toledo, but I've been on top of a couple skyscrapers and the view is incredible. Seeing Lake Erie in the distance and taking in the full scope of the city is amazing. Toledo looks pretty large from on top of a skyscraper. It reminds me a lot of the view of from Carew Tower in Cincinnati, only better since Toledo has larger bridges and Lake Erie. The flat landscape also lets you see further. Distant landmarks like University Hall, Monroe Powerplant, the oil refineries, the grain elevators, and dozens of tall church steeples are visible.

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Old December 26th, 2007, 11:29 AM   #1248
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Toledo is far more advanced than Ft. Wayne. We dont need to take tips from cities with smaller sizes

There's nothing wrong with small cities. Many of the greatest Midwestern cities are small- look at Ann Arbor, Madison, Duluth, etc.

In Ohio, most of the best cities are the small ones like Findlay, Athens, Sandusky, and Marietta. I'll take Athens over any of the big cities. There is no city in Ohio more pedestrian-friendly and functionally urban.

Fort Wayne, irregardless of size, just is not a good city for anyone to model themselves after. Fort Wayne has leveled two-thirds of its downtown. It also is not similar to Toledo at all despite the close proximity. The culture is completely different and the geography is quite different too- no lake/navigable river/marshes/etc.

Im sorry to say it but in 10-20 years Toledo may trump Columbus...

Well, I already say that since Toledo has an awesome location while Columbus is in the middle of nowhere. Toledo also has real grit and soul. I prefer that kind of culture more than the corporate-dominated Columbus culture. There's also just a weird quirkiness to Toledo that I like. I've been all over this country and I haven't found many cities with a culture quite like Toledo (though of course Detroit is most similar). There are many, many places like Columbus.

Ft. Wayne is also in the same region, with similar demographics/geographics, but is managing to grow.

You're kidding, right? Fort Wayne is an inland city without water while Toledo is a major Great Lakes shipping port built on swamps. The demographics and geography are nothing alike. Fort Wayne is a typical Midwestern city similar to Dayton with Irish/German/English white people, African-Americans, and not much else. Toledo has large Eastern European and Middle Eastern communities. They're nothing alike. Fort Wayne is also very conservative and Toledo is very liberal. It's completely apples to oranges. And Fort Wayne is not growing as a city, it's annexing, just like Columbus.

That's actually a more realistic comparison than Toledo vs. Columbus (over twice the size city/metro).

Nope. Toledo's core 50 square miles and Columbus's core 50 square miles have the same population (both about 225,000 people today). Toledo used to be Ohio's third largest city, and was larger than Columbus. Columbus has more post-WW2 suburban areas, but the pre-WW2 urban area is equivelant to Toledo. "Growth" is almost always sprawl. Urban Toledo is the same size as urban Columbus and it's the same density. The difference is all in the suburbs and lower density areas. If you look at MSA and urbanized area (which includes all true suburbs), Columbus is larger, but if you look strictly at the high density areas, they're exactly the same. Cleveland is the only Ohio city that stands out as much larger than the others in terms of its urban core. Its high density area (the core area over 5000 people per square mile) is two times larger than Cincinnati, and nearly three times larger than Columbus or Toledo. Cleveland has a big high density urban core, which extends deep into the suburbs. Cincinnati, Columbus, and Toledo are mid-sized, and do not have many high density suburbs. Dayton and Akron are smaller. Youngstown and Canton are much smaller. Cincinnati and Columbus just have a hell of a lot more post-WW2 suburbia making them larger metropolitan areas, though the actual urban "city" (pre-WW2) area is quite similar in size to Toledo. Heavily urbanized pre-WW2 Toledo (about 225,000 people today) represents 1/3rd of its metropolitan area. Heavily urbanized pre-WW2 Cincinnati (about 350,000 people today including Kentucky) represents 1/6th of its metropolitan area. Heavily urbanized pre-WW2 Columbus (about 240,000 people today) represents 1/8th of its metropolitan area. The ratios get even smaller in Dayton, Akron and Youngstown, where there are few consolidated areas over 5000 people per square mile. Cleveland's high density core is twice the size of Cincinnati's and nearly three times the size of Columbus's or Toledo's. That's why Cleveland feels like Ohio's largest city, even though its MSA is the same size as Cincinnati and Columbus. Cleveland has a much larger and much denser pre-WW2 urban area. When judging a "city," look at the high density urban area, which is the only part that appears like an actual city. The rest of the metropolitan areas are almost entirely suburban. Metro Cincinnati and Columbus are suburban to an insane degree.

Fort Wayne's urban core is about half the size of the cores of Columbus or Toledo and it's even more decimated. It's more equivelant in size to Youngstown or Canton. And Fort Wayne's downtown is almost entirely parking lots.

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Old December 27th, 2007, 03:03 PM   #1249
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I admire ilovetoledo's passion to defend Toledo, keep up with your attitude because there is never enough of that and it is a good thing.

I echo the exact sentiment and details Pilliod Njaim in past several posts and I am impress with the accuracy he has displayed.

It is very easy for people to be negative and downgrade Toledo (or any city for that matter) instead of being constructive when it comes to comparing apples/apples or apples/oranges. Toledo is unique and I have said many times before no cities in this country is the same; furthermore, we will achieve constructive discussions about developments and economics of this region instead of badgering stupid issues that is pretty much irrelevant.

Simply the voters have spoken that they DO NOT want to fund COSi with tax dollars, so perhaps it's time for Toledo Zoo or University of Toledo to step up to the plate and open up a Children's Science Center on their campuses. I think it's an utter waste to have COSi in Portside Marketplace when it should be a marketplace simple as that. IMO, sell the marketplace and let it thrive as a downtown mall as it was supposed to begin with. Downtown will always be alive with or without COSi period.

So let's move on.
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Old December 27th, 2007, 03:12 PM   #1250
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Water Street Steam Plant Update

I've covered the progress of this development project quite extensively in this thread and it's time to get this off the ground. Enough of the media crap creating controversy, it's time for Carty, David and Jimmy to bury the hatchet. The Ohio Department of Development needs to its job as they've been the sticking point of this entire project, simply, they need to give Ball/Jackson the historical tax credits and City of Toledo needs to drop the lawsuit. As much as I love to see progress with this project, it needs to move on with the housing developments especially with the valuable view of the river. We cannot afford this opportunity to pass simple as that.
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Old December 27th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #1251
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Wood County Development Updates

Two big projects are moving Wood County's economy forward this year. But they might spawn even more growth next year
Posted on WTVG 13 ABC website 12-27-2007


Two big projects are moving Wood County's economy forward this year. But they might spawn even more growth next year. FedEx is moving its distribution center to Perrysburg Township and Bass Pro is building a huge retail store in Rossford. It is economic growth that will be good for the region, as well as Wood County. It's good for the region because millions of construction dollars will generate hundreds of jobs. In the case of Bass Pro, tourists will travel to northwest Ohio from several states.

Federal Express is also moving to Wood County. Crews are pushing dirt at the site of the new distribution center in Perrysburg Township. It probably won't create the economic ripple of Bass Pro, but with easy access to two major national highways and with miles and miles of railroad tracks, Wood County is working out a deal with CSX to build a rail drop-off point near North Baltimore for products made overseas.

Combined Bass Pro and FedEx will bring roughly 1,000 jobs to Wood County. But with the CSX hub and the Bass Pro land development, perhaps a thousand more could be generated, making not just Wood County, but all of northwest Ohio a region companies may want to investigate.

(Copyright ©2007 WTVG-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.)
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Old December 27th, 2007, 03:24 PM   #1252
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Water Street Steam Plant Update No. 2

Here is another media coverage on the Steam Plant development project and gives more information in regards to what's going on with the project. Remember the state is the "sticking point" of this mess.

Back taxes are the newest glitch in building at this downtown Toledo spot
Posted on WTVG 13 ABC website 12-17-2007


The headaches continue for the steam plant. Now the developer is firing back.

Steam plant developers Jimmie Jackson and Dave Ball are behind on their taxes. According to the Lucas County treasurer, they did not pay at all last year and at the moment, owe over $40,000 in back taxes.
Since the steam plant went on the county tax roll last year, the treasurer hasn't seen a cent. But developer Ball says that's money the county never used to get paid anyway.

Up until last year, the city owned the property and they didn't pay any taxes. But now the county wants its money.
Developer Ball is in no rush to pay those county taxes. Ball got animated at times and implied it's very tough to be a developer in Toledo with all these headaches from the city. The city filed a lawsuit againt Water Street Development and Ball says he is not paying the tax bill until the lawsuit is decided.

Ball claims the hangup is with the state. He says he is applying for about $4.5million in tax credits that would bring down the cost of his $30 million project. An email dated December 14 shows Ball is in touch with the state and they are now reviewing his application. And because of the pending litigation, the city declined comment.

Also, Ball says the city owes him $20,000 from a final draw they didn't pay and he would use that to pay the county taxes when that lawsuit is decided. But the county has nothing to do with that and just wants its money.
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Old December 27th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #1253
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US Census Bureau 2006-07 Population

The United States Census Bureau has released only the 2007 population count for each states but here is the breakdown of 2006 figure according to my calculations of this region:

Toledo MSA (Lucas, Wood, Fulton and Ottawa counties):
2006--653,700
2000--659,200
-5,500 decline with a -0.8%

However, I calculated another figure which included the commuting pattern area, media viewing (television, newspapers, internet) area, and geographically-wise which surrounds the urban/infrastructure core of Toledo (Ohio's Williams, Fulton, Lucas, Ottawa, Erie, Huron, Sandusky, Seneca, Hancock, Wood, Putnam, Henry, Defiance and Michigan's Hillsdale, Lenawee, Monroe counties):
2006--1,430,900
2000--1,425,100
+5,800 increase with a +0.4%

Based on 2007 census, the state of Ohio and Michigan is severely hurting with the national economy, war, high taxes, and poor leadership of past governors. I have confidence in newly elected Governor Strickland to clean up the mess of Ohio that was left by Taft.

State of Ohio had a +102,804 in population from 2000 to 2007 with +0.9% while Michigan had a +116,405 from 2000 to 2007 with +1.2%. The percentage increase reflects stagnant, low growth; however, from 2006 to 2007 Michigan was one of the two states to post declines (the other one is Rhode Island) while Ohio remains flat. It's not a Toledo, Dayton, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Akron, Cleveland, or other city problems; it's clearly a statewide and national problem. It's time to focus on the urban core and restore the economy in the OH/MI region.

IMHO, when Columbus is the only growing metro in the entire state of Ohio, there is something fishy about that when you know the state politicians are pouring all the money in Columbus and forgetting the rest of the state.
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Old December 28th, 2007, 01:38 PM   #1254
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View from the Ohio Department of Development

Deleted due to Toledo Blade's request.
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Old December 28th, 2007, 01:42 PM   #1255
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Marina District Development Update

Deleted due to Toledo Blade's request.
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Old December 28th, 2007, 05:07 PM   #1256
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Downtown Arena Update

Here are the real-time photos of the proposed downtown arena as of today (12-28-2007); as you can see the demolition is completed and moving onto the foundation work:



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Old December 29th, 2007, 03:32 PM   #1257
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Water Street Steam Plant Development Update

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Old December 30th, 2007, 05:33 PM   #1258
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Northwood CBD Development Update

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Old December 30th, 2007, 05:36 PM   #1259
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Maumee: Arrowhead Business Park Development

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Old December 30th, 2007, 05:37 PM   #1260
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Sylvania: Monroe Street Development Update

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