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Old March 28th, 2008, 01:54 PM   #1681
Bonjourtoledo
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Old March 28th, 2008, 05:27 PM   #1682
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...I personally can see that hot mess out at Fallen Timbers dying first. It's a poor attempt at a wannabe Levis Commons that's more suburban, less classy, and has nowhere near the food offerings. Fallen Timbers is the mall that sucks most. Talk about a friggin dissapointment. It looks nothing like the renderings promised. Where's the lake, boardwalk, and chiminea? Where's the housing? Where are the f-ing food venues?
"A poor attempt at a wannabe Levis Commons!?!"

The only similiarity between these two projects is that they are both outdoor shopping centers. The mix of attractions at each was designed to be different. Levis Commons started out with more restaurants and shops targeted towards women, and has recently begun adding entertainment options like a comedy club. Fallen Timbers is setup more like a traditional shopping mall with mostly national retailers. The center did not have a slew of restaurants upon opening, but that is already changing. Granite City Brewing Company opened recently, followed soon by Red Robin and a couple QSR/fast-food places like Sbarro and Subway and I'm sure many more will follow as the area develops.

I find it extremely pessimistic to predict the demise of a center that has been open a grand total of 6 months. Also note that it opened on the eve of one of the snowiest winters in local history. Truth is that whole part of the metro area was just farmfields before the mall was built, so how about giving it a chance to thrive instead of bashing it? Similar sized cities to Toledo usually have at least 3 healthy malls, so why do we have to only have Franklin Park & Levis Commons?

Look at a map of the region, and you'll see that Fallen Timbers lies directly on one of the only vast stretches of land near I-475 that's undeveloped. Also keep in mind that US-24, the main route that feeds the center, is set to become a 4 lane divided highway all the way to Ft. Wayne Indiana, with construction starting this year. That entire corridor is poised to become a major transportation gateway in & out of the Toledo region. The area around the mall will surely fill in with more of the restaurants you're looking for in the years to come.

You asked where the housing is? It's called Monclova Township!, only one of the area's fastest growing suburbs in terms of new housing over the last decade. Perhaps they will build some townhome style condos near the mall site eventually, but that was not part of the original design. Again, they are not trying to duplicate Levis Commons.

Lastly, I disagree with your take on the overall aesthetic appeal. Artist renderings are just that... renderings. When does the real thing ever look like a painting? I visited the mall on opening day, took a stroll down Main Street, and was very pleased with the architectural detail and overall aesthetics. The whole center fits in great with the upscale suburban surroundings of Monclova and the historic, natural beauty of the Maumee River area.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 05:58 PM   #1683
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Harissa

I think that was the name? I'm referring to the new Moroccan restaurant in the Oliver House. I've gotta say, I wanted to try it, but I didn't expect anything out of it for whatever reason, so I went in expecting a par dining experience at best. Wrong! It's f-ing fantastic. It's in the old Mutz (the new Mutz is on the 2nd Floor, though I didn't get a chance to look at it yet). You choose different combos from a set menu to form a four course meal for a set price of $22, you get this complimentary mint and honey tea, and the atmosphere is decent (not great, but better than I expected). The dishes are pretty creative, too, though I don't know a whole lot about Moroccan food other than couscous.

Anyways, I didn't mean to turn this into a dining review, I initially meant to post on this place being open, but man it was good. It's nice to have something different than the traditional Toledo Lebanese places, though of course they're probably among the best Lebanese places in North American and they're f-ing awesome as well.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 08:13 PM   #1684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southsider View Post
"A poor attempt at a wannabe Levis Commons!?!"

The only similiarity between these two projects is that they are both outdoor shopping centers. The mix of attractions at each was designed to be different. Levis Commons started out with more restaurants and shops targeted towards women, and has recently begun adding entertainment options like a comedy club. Fallen Timbers is setup more like a traditional shopping mall with mostly national retailers. The center did not have a slew of restaurants upon opening, but that is already changing. Granite City Brewing Company opened recently, followed soon by Red Robin and a couple QSR/fast-food places like Sbarro and Subway and I'm sure many more will follow as the area develops.

I find it extremely pessimistic to predict the demise of a center that has been open a grand total of 6 months. Also note that it opened on the eve of one of the snowiest winters in local history. Truth is that whole part of the metro area was just farmfields before the mall was built, so how about giving it a chance to thrive instead of bashing it? Similar sized cities to Toledo usually have at least 3 healthy malls, so why do we have to only have Franklin Park & Levis Commons?

Look at a map of the region, and you'll see that Fallen Timbers lies directly on one of the only vast stretches of land near I-475 that's undeveloped. Also keep in mind that US-24, the main route that feeds the center, is set to become a 4 lane divided highway all the way to Ft. Wayne Indiana, with construction starting this year. That entire corridor is poised to become a major transportation gateway in & out of the Toledo region. The area around the mall will surely fill in with more of the restaurants you're looking for in the years to come.

You asked where the housing is? It's called Monclova Township!, only one of the area's fastest growing suburbs in terms of new housing over the last decade. Perhaps they will build some townhome style condos near the mall site eventually, but that was not part of the original design. Again, they are not trying to duplicate Levis Commons.

Lastly, I disagree with your take on the overall aesthetic appeal. Artist renderings are just that... renderings. When does the real thing ever look like a painting? I visited the mall on opening day, took a stroll down Main Street, and was very pleased with the architectural detail and overall aesthetics. The whole center fits in great with the upscale suburban surroundings of Monclova and the historic, natural beauty of the Maumee River area.
Welcome southsider, I see you are a first timer in this forum and thank you for your insights between Levis Commons and Fallen Timbers. I've got to say in terms of why do people get so excited over these "open-air" mall because I think it's nothing more than a glorified shopping center with a different set-up.

I truly hope there would be another enclosed mall besides Westfield Franklin Park sometime in the near future (renovate North Towne Square, Woodville or Portside Marketplace) because the wet/snowy/cold weather really hampers the purpose of shopping/hanging out at the open-air mall at least 6-8 months out of the year. I firmly believe the Toledo region CAN support at least four-five malls at the most (i.e. Franklin Park (northwest area), Fallen Timbers (southwest area), Levis Commons (south area), Portside (central/east area), Woodville (east area) and North Towne (north area). It's not about the number of people it's how the malls are managed, marketed, and adpated to the consumer's demands of the entire Northwest Ohio and Southeast Michigan region.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #1685
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Anyways, I didn't mean to turn this into a dining review, I initially meant to post on this place being open, but man it was good. It's nice to have something different than the traditional Toledo Lebanese places, though of course they're probably among the best Lebanese places in North American and they're f-ing awesome as well.

I'm Lebanese and I can tell you won't find better Lebanese food anywhere else in America than Toledo. You can find some places that are as good (particularly in Detroit), but not better. Toledo completely murders the competition in Ohio and most of America.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 08:25 PM   #1686
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Quote:
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I think that was the name? I'm referring to the new Moroccan restaurant in the Oliver House. I've gotta say, I wanted to try it, but I didn't expect anything out of it for whatever reason, so I went in expecting a par dining experience at best. Wrong! It's f-ing fantastic. It's in the old Mutz (the new Mutz is on the 2nd Floor, though I didn't get a chance to look at it yet). You choose different combos from a set menu to form a four course meal for a set price of $22, you get this complimentary mint and honey tea, and the atmosphere is decent (not great, but better than I expected). The dishes are pretty creative, too, though I don't know a whole lot about Moroccan food other than couscous.

Anyways, I didn't mean to turn this into a dining review, I initially meant to post on this place being open, but man it was good. It's nice to have something different than the traditional Toledo Lebanese places, though of course they're probably among the best Lebanese places in North American and they're f-ing awesome as well.

rustbeltrevival, we ate there a few weeks ago and I second your comments about Harissa, it is f***ing awesome, the food and service was wonderful. I certainly plan to be back.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 09:48 PM   #1687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonjourtoledo View Post
Welcome southsider, I see you are a first timer in this forum and thank you for your insights between Levis Commons and Fallen Timbers. I've got to say in terms of why do people get so excited over these "open-air" mall because I think it's nothing more than a glorified shopping center with a different set-up.

I truly hope there would be another enclosed mall besides Westfield Franklin Park sometime in the near future (renovate North Towne Square, Woodville or Portside Marketplace) because the wet/snowy/cold weather really hampers the purpose of shopping/hanging out at the open-air mall at least 6-8 months out of the year. I firmly believe the Toledo region CAN support at least four-five malls at the most (i.e. Franklin Park (northwest area), Fallen Timbers (southwest area), Levis Commons (south area), Portside (central/east area), Woodville (east area) and North Towne (north area). It's not about the number of people it's how the malls are managed, marketed, and adpated to the consumer's demands of the entire Northwest Ohio and Southeast Michigan region.
Thanks! I've been following this board for awhile and finally got around to joining up.

Back around 2000 - maybe earlier - the Fallen Timbers project was envisioned as an upscale two-level, five-anchor, super regional mall complete with indoor skating rink. That plan proved unrealistic after General Growth studied local population and income statistics, subsequently causing trouble in signing more than two large anchors to the project. There was also a lot of local opposition from Maumee residents in regards to such a mammoth project. Evidence of shifting national 'trends' in retail caused the project to be re-envisioned as its current form, an outdoor lifestyle center.

I agree that the metro area could use a second enclosed mall. Look at fair-weather southern cities like Atlanta or Dallas that have numerous enclosed malls. Big retail tends to follow big incomes, so here is where I predict the next Toledo area shopping mall will be built (hopefully enclosed - to balance things out), in around 2015-2020...





When ODOT adds a new interchange at Dorr Street* (*currently under study), possibly sometime in the next 5-12 years, this will accelerate commercial growth westward along Dorr in northern Springfield Township.

A mall in this location would be perfect for serving the affulent surrounding communities of Sylvania, Ottawa Hills, West Toledo and parts of Springfield/Holland. Only 5-6 miles away, it would be the first center to realisticaly compete directly with Westfield Franklin Park, likely holding its own due to highway and neighborhood proximity.

A new or redeveloped mall downtown or on the north side of town is unlikely, largely due to income statistics. Perhaps if Bedford Township gains enough population in the next 10 years, something will happen on the north side. The east side is also unlikely, although I would not completely rule out something in the vicinity of Bass Pro Shops, which is probably going to explode.
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Old March 28th, 2008, 10:40 PM   #1688
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It's hard to keep malls downtown anywhere these days. Look at Columbus, which is doing very well: City Center is pretty much defunct (of course, Columbus also has a huge sprawl problem to mirror its growth). However, I think something smaller with specialized stores would work, so long as it's something people will go to regardless of how close it is/where it is located, i.e. Trader Joes, for example. As much as I hate to admit it, I think that the only way something like Portside will be successfully redeveloped is with a majority high class retail and restaurant chains (it would be nice to have local stuff, but I don't see it working). It has to be something unique to the area that people can't find closer to home. But I think that if that is the case, Portside (or a different downtown development) has the potential to definitely be successful.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 12:38 AM   #1689
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It's hard to keep malls downtown anywhere these days. Look at Columbus, which is doing very well: City Center is pretty much defunct (of course, Columbus also has a huge sprawl problem to mirror its growth). However, I think something smaller with specialized stores would work, so long as it's something people will go to regardless of how close it is/where it is located, i.e. Trader Joes, for example. As much as I hate to admit it, I think that the only way something like Portside will be successfully redeveloped is with a majority high class retail and restaurant chains (it would be nice to have local stuff, but I don't see it working). It has to be something unique to the area that people can't find closer to home. But I think that if that is the case, Portside (or a different downtown development) has the potential to definitely be successful.

For downtown commercial to work on a large scale, such as a mall, it has to draw customers from outside the neighborhood. City-wide attractions are good, but most malls have the same old stuff. To be successful, Portside would have to have a steady stream of in- and out-of-town shoppers - mostly from the convention center, 5/3 Field, and the new arena. Portside is too far from those to be successful, however. Indianapolis is the best example of a successful downtown mall- and it is directly connected to the convention center and its hotels.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 05:03 AM   #1690
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You asked where the housing is? It's called Monclova Township!, only one of the area's fastest growing suburbs in terms of new housing over the last decade. Perhaps they will build some townhome style condos near the mall site eventually, but that was not part of the original design. Again, they are not trying to duplicate Levis Commons.

That's their problem. Levis Commons is arguably the best-designed "lifestyle center" in Ohio. Dillin Corp. at least attempted some mixed use, though of course it's still largely suburban at its core.

Moclova is a suburban nightmare. All its growth is completely at the expense of Maumee and Toledo. Don't confuse growth with sprawl. This mall should have never happened. Southwyck should have been redevloped (and it is slated for redevelopment by Dillin Corp. who also made Levis Commons). When Southwyck reopens, it could very easily kill Fallen Timbers. There's no way two malls that close together will both survive. Southwyck has a much higher population around it, and it is more centrally located in the market. It probably was in Fallen Timbers' best interest to downsize like they did because they've known all along about the plans for Southwyck.

It's hard to keep malls downtown anywhere these days. Look at Columbus, which is doing very well: City Center is pretty much defunct (of course, Columbus also has a huge sprawl problem to mirror its growth).

This is Ohio. People are so suburban-minded, I can't see any downtown mall doing well in the near future (outside of mass transit-oriented Cleveland). That's probably too much too fast. Basic retail needs have to be taken care of first.

Lastly, I disagree with your take on the overall aesthetic appeal. Artist renderings are just that... renderings. When does the real thing ever look like a painting?

Ah, Fifth Third Field, The Glass Pavillion at TMOA, the Glass City Skyway, etc., etc.

Fallen Timbers cheaped out and downsized, no doubt about it. They probably did it just based off of ecomomic decline all over Ohio and Michigan. Like I said before, it was in their best interest. This is one of those rare cases of retail coming before population. There currently is not enough population in the area to support Fallen Timbers. General Growth properties is basically trying to promote sprawl, and with oil prices going to the ceiling in the near future, it's a risky bet. Suburban developments like this won't be doing well in ten years unless they have a large population very close to the mall. The silver lining in the rising oil prices is that it will force Americans to change their suburban, car dependent lifestyles. It's either that or die.

For the metro Toledo region, Fallen Timbers failing is good for the local economy. It's much better for locally-owned properties like Levis Commons to be doing well than for Chicago-owned properties like Fallen Timbers to be doing well. You want to keep profits in your region if you want your region to have any future.

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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:08 PM   #1691
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I really dont get what you guys are talking about. We have another mall in our region which is great. OBVIOUSLY Fallen Timbers is doing well and they said so themselves after being pounded by the snowiest winter they still said they are doing well. As much as we all love Toledo and want to see it do will with Franklin Park and Southwyck, When people come to Toledo they dont say ohh Fallen Timbers in Maumee or Levis Commons in Perrysburg. They dont see it that way. They see it as Toledo. So face it we have three Great malls in our region and we need to learn to support it and face the facts that Fallen Timbers is going to do well and so will Franklin Park. Both are at opposite ends of the town. And honestly Southwyck needs to be redeveloped into resturaunts with houses on top. Some retail but not over the top. Maybe a really pretty foutain in the middle or a nice sculputure to attract people like they have all over the city. Southwyck does not need to be the next fallen timbers. We need to actually take a look at what we have and say is it worth it? Southwyck needs to be resturaunts with a boulvard with fancy lighting, lots of foliage make it look pretty so people actually want to come there. Along with resturaunts throw some bars in there. Bars actually attract more people than you think. As for downtown. Portside needs to be Resturaunts with some retail like maybe a swamp shop/walleye shop... Portside is never going to be a main attraction for downtown retail buisness. sorry. its the truth
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:30 PM   #1692
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:33 PM   #1693
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:38 PM   #1694
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Why the name of Toledo? old spanish city?
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:45 PM   #1695
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #1696
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Why the name of Toledo? old spanish city?
Credit to Wikipedia:
History
The area was first settled by European Americans in 1794, after the Battle of Fallen Timbers, with the founding of Fort Industry. However, with the War of 1812, many settlers fled the area. Resettling around 1817 a Cincinnati syndicate purchased a 974-acre (3.9 kmē) tract at the mouth of Swan Creek and named it Port Lawrence. The syndicate failed 3 years later, and the settlement joined with a river settlement to the north called Vistula. The inhabitants of this joined settlement chose the name Toledo, "but the reason for this choice is buried in a welter of legends. One recounts that Washington Irving, who was traveling in Spain at the time, suggested the name to his brother, a local resident; this explanation ignores the fact that Irving returned to the United States in 1832. Others award the honor to Two Stickney, son of the major who quaintly numbered his sons and named his daughters after States. The most popular version attributes the naming to Willard J. Daniels, a merchant, who reputedly suggested Toledo because it 'is easy to pronounce, is pleasant in sound, and there is no other city of that name on the American continent'."

From the Federal Writers' Project - The Ohio Guide - 1940

On January 15, 1936, the first building to be completely covered in glass was constructed in Toledo. It was a building for the Owens-Illinois Glass Company and marked a milestone in architectural design representative of the International style of architecture, which was at that time becoming increasingly popular in the US.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:53 PM   #1697
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:56 PM   #1698
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Old March 30th, 2008, 07:01 PM   #1699
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Old March 30th, 2008, 07:03 PM   #1700
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