Focus on the Rafale

[WatcherZero]

So what happened? First, just as important as political considerations is the question of which aircraft is best suited for the purposes of the Indian air force. Rigourous technical trials were conducted in various climates: Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh. At the Leh trials in early 2010, four aircraft performed poorly, including reportedly the two American candidates, which were said to have had trouble operating at high altitudes at such low temperatures. In fact, the final short-list should not have been a surprise: Praveen Swami reported the Eurofighter’s front-runner status after trials late last year, and over three months ago, Indian newspapers confirmed that the Eurofighter had finished first and the Rafale second with the Gripen and F-18 rounding off the top four.

The radar is a tie here. Both are good radars, nothing groundbreaking about them.

Typhoon “compensates” for the current lack of an operational AESA radar with a superb IRST system possibly the world’s best—called the Passive Infra-Red Airborne Tracking Equipment (PIRATE).
The PIRATE system is capable of detecting targets at distances approaching that of conventional radars. It combines a long-range IRST sensor operating in the long-wave infrared band with a FLIR thermal imager that is capable of passively searching, tracking and designating targets for weapons launch. All system data is seamlessly integrated with the information collected by other sensors to provide the pilot with a unified track for each target.

I see George has already posted a comment in rebuke to that article.....

[George5]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

I see George has already posted a comment in rebuke to that article.....

"Sure I am", he posted that link today, and "I posted that comment 17.12.2011"?



Come on Typhoon guys, you are really desperate when you even post those BS "neutral" blogs which have only Typhoon video clips? It will be more "neutral" link if you guys posted link of the BEA, least they will post one video clip of the Rafale? I stopped to read that BS blog when they start to talk about "maneuvers superiority" of the Typhoon.

Typhoon don't have anything, I mean anything what is near the Rafale SPECTRA. Rafale is able to destroy Typhoon even without radar which is in Rafale much superior than in Typhoon. Typhoon will have the same kind of the radar like Rafale at the end of the 2015, but it will not have anything similar to SPECTRA, so still it will lose fight simulations on regular base from Rafale.

Three most important things for any fights between two jet fighters. Radar Rafale, long range missiles pretty the same, and SPECTRA Rafale. So if we have some kind of the scale, from 9 fights, Rafale will win 8 fights, and Typhoon 1 because Rafale pilot want to sleep a little bit.

Oh wait, Rafale beats Typhoon on Corsica 2009 exactly in that scale, 8 times Rafale won, and 1 time Rafale pilot sleep, so he lost once from Typhoon. That is reality, no mater how much time Cameron mention some Typhoon "air superiority".

[AXISPAW]

Originally Posted by George5

"Sure I am", he posted that link today, and "I posted that comment 17.12.2011"?

Come on Typhoon guys, you are really desperate when you even post those BS "neutral" blogs which have only Typhoon video clips? It will be more "neutral" link if you guys posted link of the BEA, least they will post one video clip of the Rafale? I stopped to read that BS blog when they start to talk about "maneuvers superiority" of the Typhoon.

Typhoon don't have anything, I mean anything what is near the Rafale SPECTRA. Rafale is able to destroy Typhoon even without radar which is in Rafale much superior than in Typhoon. Typhoon will have the same kind of the radar like Rafale at the end of the 2015, but it will not have anything similar to SPECTRA, so still it will lose fight simulations on regular base from Rafale.

Three most important things for any fights between two jet fighters. Radar Rafale, long range missiles pretty the same, and SPECTRA Rafale. So if we have some kind of the scale, from 9 fights, Rafale will win 8 fights, and Typhoon 1 because Rafale pilot want to sleep a little bit.

Oh wait, Rafale beats Typhoon on Corsica 2009 exactly in that scale, 8 times Rafale won, and 1 time Rafale pilot sleep, so he lost once from Typhoon. That is reality, no mater how much time Cameron mention some Typhoon "air superiority".

Shut up George. You post endless fanboy comments but as soon as someone else does you quickly bat them down. Please go away. You have no clue.

[WatcherZero]

Looks like George writing and poor English indeed, nothing to stop you posting a comment earlier.

[Skepta]

Originally Posted by George5

Typhoon don't have anything, I mean anything what is near the Rafale SPECTRA. Rafale is able to destroy Typhoon even without radar which is in Rafale much superior than in Typhoon. Typhoon will have the same kind of the radar like Rafale at the end of the 2015, but it will not have anything similar to SPECTRA, so still it will lose fight simulations on regular base from Rafale.

George, I doubt you or any of us fully understand how good SPECTRA really is and what it really entails.

SPECTRA includes radar detectors, laser warning receivers and infrared missile approach warning. Active elements of the system include chaff and flare dispensers, and radio frequency jamming. SPECTRA also has ELINT functions, for recording and analysing the characteristics of hostile emitters and their locations.

Most of which are definitely not unique to SPECTRA and the Rafale.

Thales Group and Dassault Aviation have mentioned stealthy jamming modes for the SPECTRA system, to reduce the aircraft's apparent radar signature. It is not known exactly how these work or even if the capability is fully operational, but it may employ active cancellation technology, such as has been tested by Thales and MBDA. Active cancellation is supposed to work by sampling and analysing incoming radar and feeding it back to the hostile emitter out of phase thus cancelling out the returning radar echo

For an informed analysis on the effectiveness of radar cancellation and it's limitations, read here: http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-75209.aspx

I'm not trying to say SPECTRA isn't a good piece of kit - it is, and we could do with it on some British planes if it really does what it says it can do. I don't for a second believe it is the be-all and end-all that you seem convinced it is though.

[Matthieu]

FFS people please stop quoting James F. Dunnigan's page. It's as reliable as quoting Bill O' Relly on financial issues.

[AXISPAW]

Another good read : http://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/...lt-rafale.html

[Splish]

Here's a supposedly leaked report detailing Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen all together.

http://www.scribd.com/Avtips/d/81390...and-the-Rafale

Rafale was the preferred aircraft.

[Matthieu]

This is indeed a leacked document, this was confirmed everywhere in the news. It's the results of the Swiss competition. The Rafale came 1st in many point, the Typhoon often close 2nd.

The Gripen did not even meet the Swiss minimum requirements and was the only aircraft to fail several demands.

Such document is a bit of a bomb on the diplomatic side, helps us understanding what happened in India and put some perspective on what's going on in Brazil.

[Matthieu]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/11872155.cms

Originally Posted by Times of India

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited prepares to manufacture Rafale combat jet in India

NEW DELHI: State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is getting ready to progressively manufacture the Dassault Rafale combat jet that has apparently been chosen by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for its $10.4 billion order for 126 planes.

HAL officiating Chairman and Managing Director P.V. Deshmukh told India Strategic defence magazine (www.indiastrategic.in) that the company had already earmarked its own land near Bangalore, where it is headquartered, to produce some of the aircraft's major components and integrate the overall aircraft and systems.
.....

[Matthieu]

Confirmed by the India MoD. There's no turning back in the decision, both the Rafale and Typhoon met the 660 points of the Indian procurement and the Rafale came the cheapest. The cradle to grave cost (purchasing + maintenance + operating cost) of the Rafale was estimated to be 22% to 25% cheaper.

The other planes: F-16I, F/A-18E/F, Mig-35 and Gripen NG had failed to meet the minimum requirements and have been eliminated on this ground.

Seems that this Indian competition was surprisingly transparent for such a high profile contract.

[WatcherZero]

Not really that surprising, they rated cost 3x as highly as performance in the comparative performance scoring LOL.

If Eurofighter scored 6 and Rafale scored 7 then to get those scores the Eurofighter which costs 25% more must have performed considerably better.

[Matthieu]

You have the technical results of the Indian competition?

[WatcherZero]

Was refering to the Swiss, it weighted performance scores acording to the cost to allow the direct comparison between planes of differing price tags. Also how the Gripen managed to score high even though it failed many of the tests.

[Matthieu]

Didn't see the weight given to each point. The report I read was purely talking of technical points. Did we see the same?

[Matthieu]

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defen...20Indian%20MoD

Originally Posted by defenseworld

Door Shut on Eurofighter As Dassault Prepares For Commercial Talks with Indian MoD

The Indian MoD and Dassault are scheduled to begin commercial talks to freeze the aircraft architecture next week following the Rafale fighter's win of the MMRCA contract. Defenseworld.net had earlier reported that the next step following Rafale's selection as the lowest bidder would be defining the aircraft architecture....

[sidrasadaf]

well done i really appreciate your work,also nice picture great work keep it up.

[SO143]

Indian Air Force's wait for combat aircraft may get longer

NEW DELHI: The wait for procuring 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to get longer as Defence Minister A K Antony has decided to review the process to determine the lowest bidder in the deal bagged by French Rafale after defeating European Eurofighter.

The Defence Ministry has also resumed the process of negotiating the price of the 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with French Dassault Aviation after it was halted briefly following objections from former MP Mysura Reddy.

"The Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) has been directed to proceed to complete its deliberations and finalise its report. Before any further action is taken, the entire issue of approach and methodology adopted by the CNC to determine the L-1 vendor as well as your letter and other references received in this regard will be re-examined by the Defence Ministry to ascertain that the entire procurement process is reasonable, appropriate and as per the laid down procedure," Antony said in a letter to Reddy.

Reddy had earlier written to Antony alleging the Defence Ministry had violated the evaluation process and arrived at an "incorrect decision" with regard to the Rafale being the lowest bidder.

"I am also given to understand that the Rafale aircraft has not been sold to any country. Why should India buy a combat aircraft that no other country has purchased?" he had written.

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...-french-rafale

[Matthieu]

If they review the procurement that would mean bringing back in not just the Typhoon but also the other planes... and wait for 5 to 6 more years just for the results of a competition.

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Originally Posted by Matthieu

If they review the procurement that would mean bringing back in not just the Typhoon but also the other planes... and wait for 5 to 6 more years just for the results of a competition.

Dassault obviously paid bribes to the wrong people this time....

First Brazil, now India..what a bunch of noobs.