daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Skyscrapers

Skyscrapers General news, discussion and announcement forum about skyscrapers, including the Skyscraper Living forum



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 17th, 2006, 12:59 AM   #261
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,508
Likes (Received): 17834

Tokyo Subway Line a Saga of Hubris
By MARTIN FACKLER
20 July 1999

TOKYO (AP) - They run possibly the most efficient urban transportation system in the world, carrying 7.2 million riders daily on immaculate trains that arrive on time.

But pride in their achievements - and overconfidence in Japan's once vaunted technological prowess - appears to have led Tokyo's public-owned subway operators down the wrong tunnel.

The Tokyo Metropolitan Transport Bureau's multibillion-dollar mistake began with a proposal for Tokyo's most ambitious line yet - an 18-mile loop running under the heart of the city. Planners promised to finish in record time and at enormous profit.

Now, more than a decade later, construction is years behind schedule and cost overruns are measured in the billions of dollars - so high it will take four decades to pay off.

"It's like a lot of things in Japan at that time," said Masataka Sasaki, a manager in the bureau's planning department. "We had sky-high expectations about what we could do,"

The impossible promises came in the mid-1980s, when the bureau, an independent agency owned by the Tokyo city government, was lobbying the national government to finance the line, known as the No. 12.

The bureau said it would use the latest in tunneling technology to have the No. 12 up and running more quickly and cheaply than any subway before.

Earlier lines had been built mostly by digging down from the surface and then filling in over the subway tunnel, an expensive and time-consuming process. The bureau said new robotic drills would allow workers to bore underground like moles, with minimal disturbance to those above.

Technological breakthroughs would also make the No. 12 the fastest and most efficient subway in the world, with trains whooshing on cushions of air thanks to powerful electromagnets, the bureau said. Artificial intelligence chips would give cars the ability to "learn" how to save time further, such as cutting the length of station stops, it said.

The greater speed, in turn, would mean more riders and ticket revenues, allowing the new line to mark a profit in the first year, the bureau promised.

The plan had its detractors. But the 1980s were a time when nothing seemed impossible for Japanese engineers - especially those who ran the spotless, punctual Tokyo subway system.

Then, as now, that system carried about 2.7 billion riders a year - more than twice the 1.2 billion who rode New York subways in 1998.

And Tokyo makes do with half as many lines as New York, leading to some crushing loads. Tokyo's busiest line hauls 1.2 million people every day.

Yet, the subways run like clockwork, so much so that station masters will apologize over loud speakers when trains are just a minute late.


That sterling reputation helped win the subway bureau the final go ahead in 1989 to build the new line, bureau officials said.

But the project was plagued by embarrassing cost overruns from the start.

First there were allegations of bid-rigging that surfaced after every major construction company in the city received contracts commensurate with its size.

"One can only guess how much this cost Tokyo," said a 1990 editorial in the national newspaper Asahi. The city denied any knowledge of wrongdoing.

More costly still were unexpected obstacles beneath the streets. The ground under Tokyo is cluttered with old masonry and other debris from the city's frequent rebuilding due to earthquakes, wartime bombing and rapid economic development. Hasty reconstruction also meant water mains and sewers were often mislocated on city maps, or left off altogether.

These obstructions posed a particular hazard to the No. 12's underground tunneling equipment. There was no easy way to remove many of the unexpected objects, and tunnels often had to be redug, at great cost and delay.

Then there were some expensive errors by the subway's engineers.

As the tunneling neared large structures on the surface, recalculations showed danger of cave-ins. In one case, the city ended up spending millions of dollars to shift the tracks of a "bullet" superexpress train.

Subway bureau officials admit today they'll be lucky to finish the No. 12 for $8.3 billion, or $2.7 billion more than the original estimate.

The line now is expected to take its first riders sometime next year, more than three years late. And it won't turn a profit until 2040, if ever.

"We won't be attempting any new lines in the foreseeable future," said Jun Onishi, a spokesman for the subway bureau. "We'll be paying off this one for quite a while."
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 17th, 2006, 01:43 AM   #262
coth
pride leader
 
coth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Moscow
Posts: 21,633
Likes (Received): 6827

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Technological breakthroughs would also make the No. 12 the fastest and most efficient subway in the world, with trains whooshing on cushions of air thanks to powerful electromagnets, the bureau said. Artificial intelligence chips would give cars the ability to "learn" how to save time further, such as cutting the length of station stops, it said.
well, does it matter how are advanced your technologies? look, jubilee line in london is for sure one of most advanced, but even with all their technologies they are not able to reproduce anything higher of 24tph, while they originally planned 36tph. moscow metro had over 36 tph on most of lines even in 1960's and 42tph in 1970's and 39tph now. It doesn't matter how advanced technologies are. Matter is how you able to use them.
__________________

Last edited by coth; August 17th, 2006 at 01:48 AM.
coth no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2006, 03:05 AM   #263
lbjeffries
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 150
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle_Bravo
How can it be that the capital of the world, has a so dirty and so outdated subway system?? I know that's around 400km, but London also has more than 400km, and they have build a new line in the '90, and it's not so dirty.
Fareed Zakaria, the editor of Newsweek International, has noticed this irony as well. He talks about how you go to Paris or Munich and see these gorgeous trains but then you come back to the U.S. and see dirty stations, rats, and scrachiti on the windows. How come? Well his explanation is that it comes with the territory of having the most vibrant economy in the world. In other words, we're too distracted by our success and our desire to move forward, to invest in superstructure. I think that may be la vie en rose to an extent.

I think it has more to do with the fact that the United States spends more on our military than the rest of the world combined. Maybe if we shifted a little bit of that money to lessening our dependancy on oil by improving our public transportation, we would have trains as nice as Paris.

Also, New York is a difficult place to keep clean. There are a lot of people and Zakaria is right to the extent that a vibrant economy tends to polarize rich from poor. These people at the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum tend to to be the ones who litter and put scratchiti on the windows. The MTA is getting a lot of money in the next few years so hopefully there will be some improvements.

Overall the trains in New York are great in spite of the fact they aren't the prettiest. You never have to walk more than a few blocks to get to a station and they get around this massive city in short order. Do I enjoy using tidy public transportation systems when I travel to Europe? For a while, sure. But then I miss the diversity of people you see on a New York subway, and the street performers are so much better here, and yes, I even miss the grittiness. Its just too tidy and homogeneous everywhere else.

And to the person who said they'd be too scared to get on a New York subway at night. Thats cool man, a lot of people are scared when they come to New York. Thats why every guy who lives here has giant balls. Brass ones. You wouldn't be able to survive otherwise.
lbjeffries no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2006, 02:11 PM   #264
Alargule
Gidroow Neget Mola
 
Alargule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,162
Likes (Received): 2028

Quote:
Tokyo Subway Line a Saga of Hubris
By MARTIN FACKLER
20 July 1999
Where did you dig this up, hkskyline?
__________________
Nu op Wordpress: Rails in Amsterdam
Alargule no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2006, 09:34 PM   #265
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,508
Likes (Received): 17834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule
Where did you dig this up, hkskyline?
I have access to newswires and comprehensive search tools. Interestingly, the desire to maintain punctual trains in Japan can have disastrous consequences, such as the recent train wreck in 2005 near Osaka.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2006, 05:43 AM   #266
Manila-X
PINOY MOD
 
Manila-X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: MANILA
Posts: 14,387
Likes (Received): 2584

Tokyo's subway line works pretty well for it's city
__________________
Manila X-Perience, My collection of images around Metro Manila

Representing The Pinoy Community here in SSC!
Manila-X no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2006, 07:20 AM   #267
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,508
Likes (Received): 17834

More bodies found in train debris
Thursday, April 28, 2005 Posted: 2:48 AM EDT (0648 GMT)

TOKYO, Japan (CNN) -- More bodies, including possibly that of the driver, have been found in the twisted metal debris left behind Monday when a commuter train jumped the tracks and crashed into an apartment building in western Japan.

The body was not immediately identified, but police said it could be Ryujiro Takami, the 23-year-old engineer.

The death toll from the smash now stands at 104, fire officials say.

The number of injured remained at 458 from the collision in Amagasaki, just outside Osaka. It was the deadliest train accident in Japan in 40 years.

One issue in the smash was the inexperience of the driver, on the job for 11 months. The conductor, who was questioned by police, was a 15-year veteran.

Police said Tuesday they were treating the crash as a case of "possible criminal negligence."

Japan Rail West representatives said they're not sure how fast the train was going when it derailed, but noted it would have to be traveling more than 83 mph (133 km/h) to jump the track due to excess speed.

The speed limit along that stretch of track is 43 mph (70 km/h), but survivors allege the train was traveling much faster.

Survivors, in broadcast interviews, said that the train was speeding as it rounded a curve.

The survivors told Japan's national broadcaster NHK that the driver had overrun the previous station and had to back up the train. They said they believe he was trying to make up time.

Analysts said the cause of the crash is likely to be a combination of factors -- including a possible obstruction on the tracks.

"We hear there was a stone on the rail. We hear the train was speeding. There is also speculation that the construction of the train itself may have been faulty. There could be many reasons," one analyst told CNN.

The Japan Rail West tracks in the area are among the oldest in Japan and do not have an automatic breaking system that slows speeding trains. That feature is present on newer tracks.

Families arrived at a gymnasium that has been turned into a make-shift morgue to claim the bodies of the dead.

In a week that has seen Japan's worst train accident in 40 years, another incident has further marred the country's normally trouble-free rail system.

A minivan collided with a commuter train in Yokohama early Wednesday, seriously injuring the driver of the vehicle, police said.

No injuries were reported among the 130 passengers on board the train.

The van crashed into the side of the train, operated by Sagami Railway Company, at a crossing at about 9 a.m. (midnight GMT).

On Tuesday a truck driver was injured when a train ran into his semitrailer that had stalled at a crossing north of Tokyo.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2006, 10:11 AM   #268
Vapour
Registered User
 
Vapour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pop. 450
Posts: 6,332
Likes (Received): 27

I read the whole thread, thanks for posting all that information and pictures.
I feel it's unfair to compare old systems (London, etc) to brand new ones with a few lines, it's nearly like comparing apples to oranges.
Anyway, good job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
The is the busiest urban rail line in the world with nearly 300 million passengers a year.
I don't know where you got that figure from, but there are about 20 "urban rail lines" in Greater Tokyo with a daily ridership over 822,000 or +300,000,000 a year. The Yamanote line figure is close to 1,300,000,000 a year. http://www.train-media.net/report/0511/joukou_2004.pdf
__________________
♪ I love Morty and I hope Morty loves me, I'd like to wrap my arms around him and feel him inside me ♪
Vapour no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2006, 07:04 PM   #269
got pidh?
BANNED
 
got pidh?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 129
Likes (Received): 0

Well, aesthetically New York's metro is definitely not the best in the world but that's also cause it was built years before many other metros
From all the maps that i saw though, New York's metro seams to be the simplest one, you can go to the other side of the city here in an hour or so, it's always running, it drops you off right in front of the bus if you need to go somewhere else, there's always AC and heating, it's not expensive and you get to see some wacky things when walking underground in manhattan.

Many other subways especially in Asia are plain modern, shiny and steel- and this is what seems to impress people.
got pidh? no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 06:46 AM   #270
treboy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 51
Likes (Received): 3

NYsubway has more character with peformers where riders and peopel can enjoy their peformances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-mFRdxFfP4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbxJl11GEfY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf-C3DiOdLs

More human and friendly indication
compared to this.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9E7J7MLko4

OMG, this is horrible and a disaster. peopel have to deal with this riders overpacked train every single day.?
Riders are standing right next to each other with no any space on the train travelling all the way to their destinaions.
I would be sick,go crazy and take day off very next day if taking tokyo train.
__________________
Without NYC, the world will be in trouble.
City of NewYork should be independent of NY State.

Last edited by treboy; August 19th, 2006 at 06:52 AM.
treboy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 04:20 PM   #271
Aokromes
Patatero Inside
 
Aokromes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Siberia-Gasteiz
Posts: 7,986
Likes (Received): 2617

The metro of NYC don't allows the use of Smart cards to pay their travels. Another point for Moscow and others vs NYC metro.
__________________
Si quieres compatibilidad con estandares y seguridad, pq recomiendas Firefox y no Opera?
If you want compatibility with standards and security, why do you recomend firefox and not Opera?

The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards - and even then I have my doubts. Gene Spafford.
I am Basque, not Russian, the "Siberia" thing is a joke.
Aokromes no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 04:41 PM   #272
Poryaa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

NYC and London have so many gorgeous stations because the US and UK each have the grandest history, never lost a war.
Poryaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 04:45 PM   #273
Aokromes
Patatero Inside
 
Aokromes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Siberia-Gasteiz
Posts: 7,986
Likes (Received): 2617

And Vietnam what?
__________________
Si quieres compatibilidad con estandares y seguridad, pq recomiendas Firefox y no Opera?
If you want compatibility with standards and security, why do you recomend firefox and not Opera?

The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards - and even then I have my doubts. Gene Spafford.
I am Basque, not Russian, the "Siberia" thing is a joke.
Aokromes no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 05:01 PM   #274
Alargule
Gidroow Neget Mola
 
Alargule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,162
Likes (Received): 2028

The UK has never lost a war? Well, that explains why the Empire has crumbled, the US have been officially independent since 1776 and the Zulus smashed the English army in South Africa...
__________________
Nu op Wordpress: Rails in Amsterdam
Alargule no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 05:27 PM   #275
Metropolitan
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,362
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule
The UK has never lost a war? Well, that explains why the Empire has crumbled, the US have been officially independent since 1776 and the Zulus smashed the English army in South Africa...
What about the good old Joan of Arch or William the Conqueror ?

England has actually lost tons of wars. I agree though that they won some of the most important ones.
Metropolitan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 05:29 PM   #276
Alargule
Gidroow Neget Mola
 
Alargule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,162
Likes (Received): 2028

They beat 'zee' germans. Twice. And both times, they didn't do it alone. That's all I care for.
__________________
Nu op Wordpress: Rails in Amsterdam
Alargule no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 06:17 PM   #277
Poryaa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
What about the good old Joan of Arch or William the Conqueror ?

England has actually lost tons of wars. I agree though that they won some of the most important ones.
Britain or rather the Anglosaxons have never lost a war since 1066. The Normans were the only race that defeated the Anglosaxons. Btw Elizabeth II is Norman.
Poryaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2006, 10:06 PM   #278
elkram
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 346
Likes (Received): 4

Paris has my favourite metro. I love how often I stumbled upon a metro station on my many walks there. It goes virtually everywhere plus its RER is a big bonus.
elkram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2006, 11:39 AM   #279
lbjeffries
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 150
Likes (Received): 1

great post treboy
lbjeffries no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2006, 09:51 AM   #280
Iggui
Tercermundista de corazn
 
Iggui's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 2,285
Likes (Received): 1238

The Santiago (Chile) Metro has not been pictured here yet. It is the most extensive in South America and 2nd to
Mexico City in length for Latin America. I believe it to be the most modern and best system in Latin America.






Future Extentions. It will have 104.5km/65miles of track by 2009.




The Evolution of the Trains, from 1975 to 2005












scroll----------->
















































scroll----------->










































scroll----------->










__________________
Occidental de segunda mano

Last edited by Iggui; September 15th, 2006 at 10:16 AM.
Iggui no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
subway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu