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Old August 14th, 2005, 06:08 PM   #21
nick_taylor
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redstone - I think you'll be suprised to know that the network runs at around 97% - thats pretty damn special



hkskyline - MTR's network is nice, but lacks the immense size other networks, have which are also larger, denser and more connected. Also Singapore offers a nicer all-round package to be honest.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brice
There's no fully automated lines in London, Moscow and Madrid.

Paris has 2 lines. NY 1

Paris and London have already a contact less system to open turnsti;es. NY, Madrid and Moscow don't eaven know what this system is.
Actually thats wrong, London was the first city in the world to put in place an a full-scale automatic railway line: the Victoria Line of 1968 (37 years old now). It uses an ATO (Automatic Train Operation) system which has been implemented over the decades on other London Underground lines (eg Northern, Jubilee, etc...) and railway networks across the globe.

The New York Subway though has been lagging behind other world cities and has only just brought in this year the OPTO (One Person Train Operation) system on the BMT Canarsie Line. The Victoria Line though is just about to enter the next phase of automation with entire new rolling stock, I am unsure whether this will mean that the entire line becomes entirely fully-automatic - ie no human presence whatsoever.

That said London also has the DLR which is fully automatic semi-light/heavy rail network similar to the Vancouver SkyTrain with 34 stations (6 stations U/C, 5 stations Approved + 5 stations Proposed).

Also contactless cards, Platform Screen Door's and Electronic Display Boards are things New York seems to be lagging behind in unfortunately.



That said - London for me - the complete package of excellent + diverse station design, history, innovation, modern amenities, inconicity, size, future projects and efficiency.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 06:17 PM   #22
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Old August 14th, 2005, 07:10 PM   #23
Zaki
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why do all the stations look so old. I am sure with so many stations and lines london has to have atleast a few thats modern looking.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 09:01 PM   #24
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London's newest stations are along the Jubilee Line extension, which includes the Canary Wharf station designed by Norman Foster.

Westminster





Canary Wharf







While extensiveness is a valid criterion to judge a subway system, a very dense system doesn't necessarily mean the system is well-used. To me, whether or not people use the system will ultimately be the deciding factor. For such a small system, the MTR is able to have almost the same patronage as the London Underground. That's not bad at all.

I relate this concept to the highway lane dilemma. When a highway is built, the first lanes will score enormous economic benefits, but for each additional lane that is added, the amount of benefit decreases - the law of diminishing returns. For Hong Kong, since the city is so centralized, having massive rail redundancies like the Underground or the Paris Metro is simply not necessary because the population is centralized. Hence diminishing returns (marginal benefit drops) kick in very quickly.

Next, I'd look at facilities, such as the use of smart cards, air conditioning, ease of transfers, and clarity of signage. Hong Kong's Octopus card is the world's first public transport smart card, launched in the 1990s. Following the HK example, many cities use smart cards today, including the Oyster card in London.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 09:15 PM   #25
nick_taylor
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Thats because they are - some are 142 years old, dating back to 1863 such as Baker Street - the oldest underground/metro/subway stations in the world:






Others are more modern, such as Canary Wharf which opened in 1999.






Most stations now have Electronic Display Boards, some have Platform Screen Doors and more are constantly being renovated to include escalators and lifts to make the network more accessible to less-able users. These modern influences are infused with the historical stations of so many architectural styles that there isn't a comparable network on the planet with such station diversity. Without history, the network would be pretty much sterile and soulless which is the unfortunate result of many new stations and networks. The attention to detail at some of these old stations is absolutely astronomical.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 10:26 PM   #26
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i have lived in many cities and visited many cities.

My vote is for

NEW YORK

despite that
- it is super dirty when compared to other subways like Hong Kong
- it makes a lot of noise and torque when running
- it does not have escallators in many of its stations
- it may not be the safest train ride

BUT

- it offers simple fair. once you pay, you dont need to worry how much it will costs to ride no matter how far.
- it is the most reliable (compare NY to London which has frequent downs)
- it runs 24 hours a day
- it gives the best value of money. one can buy weekly, monthly tickets and can ride as much as one can. Tokyo is the most expensive (1 station ride costs Yen113)
- it gives many choices which train to take to speed up the whole trip
- it covers a great deal of New York area, unlike Singapore/Hong Kong which doesnt even cover many part of the city and many stations stops are too far apart once outside the CBD area.
- it is quite simple to use (compare New York to London which is so unnecessarily complicated) I can go anywhere in New York with maps in my head; however for London, due to complications, even train users of many years still doesnt know all the complicated transfers and have to rely on a map.
- it is quite comfortable to ride since it provides A/C and heater. try riding London underground during hot summer, it feels like entering a sauna.
- it is quite comfortable to ride since it is not sardine packed like Tokyo and
the absence of those grabbing hands
- it provides many interesting cultural and musical entertainment for free

Last edited by cbrooks; August 14th, 2005 at 11:00 PM.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 09:47 AM   #27
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Actually the London Underground is not only more reliable (ie in terms of running and actually being on-schedule) than the New York subway, but your 5x less likely to die (ie derailments, crashes, etc...) on the London Undeground than on the NYC Subway. I believe its even taken less time to fix the bomb damage in London than the recent fire started by some hobos on the NYC Subway.

Also you'd have to be kidding me to believe that the London Underground is unnecessarily complicated! There are some 468 stations on the New York Subway to the 275 on the London Underground (yet the LU has the longer network, ie average speeds between stations is higher), yet your telling me that those all those numbers are easier to name that less landmark names? Also why would regular users of the network need to require the use of a map to navigate their journey which they most likely conducted several hundred times before?

It also never gets too hot that its a sauna. It does get hot, but not on many days and there has to be the economical balance between modernisation of the network and supplying a/c. That said the network uses draught limitation devices to keep the network cool and a/c units themselves have not reached the level where they can be placed effectively into a tube train, they also consume a lot of energy and in turn cause a heating of the tunnels which is even worse.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 12:45 PM   #28
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I've only seen and travelled nine systems in Europe, so I choose one of them, because I cannot judge others. And then I choose London. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor

(...)

That said - London for me - the complete package of excellent + diverse station design, history, innovation, modern amenities, inconicity, size, future projects and efficiency.
I couldn't say it better, so I fully agree with this! London is iconic. In my opinion more than any other system in the world.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 06:50 PM   #29
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London's new stations look amazing. I dont understand why UK people are always showing pictures of old garbage when they have such nice modern things too. Some peope think old means very detailed etc. but new modern stations are as detailed if not more with thought put into every aspect of the station. They make the subway from a cold dark underground place to an amazing lively beautiful place.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 06:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
That said - London for me - the complete package of excellent + diverse station design...
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Old August 15th, 2005, 09:36 PM   #31
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what is with berlins subway??

subway

subway2

train

station

station potsdamer platz

station2
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Old August 16th, 2005, 03:46 AM   #32
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In the field of engineering, I truly think that the Tashkent (capital of Uzbekistan, central asia) underground is the best. Constructed after an earthquake wich destroyed almost the whole city, its quake proof (with rubber sleepers), and those crazy soviets made the whole thing that strong, and with heavy concrete doors, it can serve as a shelter in the event of a nuclear war!
The architecture is similar to the moscow underground, with heavy decorating, and each station has it's own theme, like one about space and joeri gagarin.
However, due the nuclear thing, it's strictly forbidden to take pictures inside, and in each station are 2 agents who will confiscate any used camera's ....
http://metroworld.ruz.net/others/tash_cruise.htm

Last edited by prahsharp; August 16th, 2005 at 03:57 AM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:08 PM   #33
nick_taylor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaki
London's new stations look amazing. I dont understand why UK people are always showing pictures of old garbage when they have such nice modern things too. Some peope think old means very detailed etc. but new modern stations are as detailed if not more with thought put into every aspect of the station. They make the subway from a cold dark underground place to an amazing lively beautiful place.
I've yet to see a modern station that replicates the detail of the older stations. Its the same with most architecture - you don't see skyscrapers detailed like they were in the 30's, nor do you see modern buildings with the detail of buildings 200+ years old. Its the same for stations. I should note also that metal and stone/concrete is used not to create a warm environment. If you want that you use different materials which aren't cold looking, eg bricks which is what some of the older stations are made out of.

Also I wouldn't call the London Underground's historical stations 'garbage', as I assume you haven't looked at Toronto's network recently? Using metal and stones are used in



Quote:
Originally Posted by coth
Don't know what your laughing about Coth - There are stations on the London Underground network built in styles 72 years before the first Moscow Metro line opened! Still having trouble finding those metro figures though eh?
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:17 PM   #34
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LOL!!! Nick - are you claiming London Underground as most beautiful in the world?

Я то всё нашёл - а ты?
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:22 PM   #35
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Nick, i'll show you what is beauty!
Here is one example from Saint Petersburg.
http://metrowalks.ru/spb/station-1-17
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:25 PM   #36
nick_taylor
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Where did I say that? I said:

excellent + diverse station design

Where did I mention that its the most beautiful in the world? Have a problem quoting me on that do you? No source? What a suprise!


Ohhhh Russian! Find anything regarding metro's then?
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:48 PM   #37
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Nick - subcontext meaning is not cancelled

Please in Russian.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 06:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
I've yet to see a modern station that replicates the detail of the older stations. Its the same with most architecture - you don't see skyscrapers detailed like they were in the 30's, nor do you see modern buildings with the detail of buildings 200+ years old. Its the same for stations. I should note also that metal and stone/concrete is used not to create a warm environment. If you want that you use different materials which aren't cold looking, eg bricks which is what some of the older stations are made out of.

Also I wouldn't call the London Underground's historical stations 'garbage', as I assume you haven't looked at Toronto's network recently? Using metal and stones are used in
I am talking about a different kind. The detail your talking about is reffering to the art of the building, its looks. The detail i am talking about is the detail to lighting, geometry to make the space seem bigger then it is, environment, etc. The detail i am talking about is what makes being in the subway a great experience, not what makes it look great, though i prefer modern art rather than the old european style.

Also about Toronto, most of the stations are quite modern and look very nice. There are a few downtown that look like crap but still it doesnt represent the network as a whole. But anyways i never claimed Toronto's network is better than londons, infact i havent even mentioned Toronto, when i think of great looking subways i think of Tokyo, Seoul, Singapore, etc. These are modern and beautiful.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 04:22 PM   #39
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Tokyo has got the best subway in the wholw world!!
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Old September 3rd, 2005, 04:21 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaki
everytime i see a major cities subway system map it makes me wonder why Toronto's is so garbage.

I think Toronto's suck so badly (in terms of coverage of the city -- it's actually reasonably efficient and pleasant once you are riding in it) is that it was never designed as a SYSTEM.

From my understanding, the first line built in the 50s, Yonge Street, was designed to relieve surface traffic on Yonge Street. A subway was a cool thing to have, and there was lots of cheap labour -- from Europe and in particular the Italians who emigrated to Canada in droves. A cross town line (Bloor-Danforth) and then an adjacent downtown line forming a loop with Yonge Street less than 1 mile parallel to it (University Avenue) line was formed in the 60s as incremental expansion.

But the mentality started to change in the 60s -- it was the car era. I remember seeing a Toronto master plan chart from 1966 that filled the city with expressways -- the Spadina Expressway (Allen Road), of course, the Eglinton expressway, the cross-town expressway (on the railroad tracks along Davenport), etc. -- it was like something out of the madness of Robert Moses of the New York highway fame.

Reality sunk in, particularly after the bitter Spadina Expressway fight (which was rich powerful WASPs disapproving of an expressway so close to their leafy Forest Hill neighbourhood and exerted power over the car-crazy suburban developers and middle classes). Jane Jacobs stared down the mighty Robert Moses -- so the urban redevelopment (read paving it over) political climate changed big time.

But they still weren't serious about building an actual transit system to complement city expansion. Toronto's expansion over the past 30 years was based on the car, with buses thrown so the poor carless people can get to their jobs and back.

The last time that Toronto got close to pro-transit was during the leftish NDP provincial government of the 90s who was willing to throw in funds for the Eglinton line, Sheppard line, etc. But the province was basically bankrupt (because of the Ontario Hydro nuclear reactor loan guarantees that spiralled so out of control and due to an economic recession). So much for that idea. And the government that succeeded the NDP was a very right-wing Conservative government whose powerbase was in the suburbs, exurbs and the rural areas anyway -- build roads, not cars, and so we end up with this abandoned tunnel in the middle of Eglinton and a stupid Sheppard subway line to basically takes you to Ikea (lug your non-sensical vaguely Swedish-named furniture onto the subway entrance 500 m away).

We still largely have this non-system mentality in 2005, and it surely doesn't help that we don't have a lot of capital dollars. Even when we have capital dollars to build subways or other transit infrastructure, we somehow manage to use it in the most inefficient way possible -- how can the Spadina streetcar line (they try to glorify it by calling it a light rail, when in fact it operates more like a 1920s street car line than the slick state-of-the-art light rails complete with multiple loading doors, articulation, no climbing walking on floor profile, etc. of today) cost $1.6 Billion (late 80s dollars, I might add).

And then we end up building low density North America anywhere suburbia 50 miles away -- in Milton, in Newmarket, in Whitby (even Mississsauga is now considered more "urban") -- that makes high density rapid transit pretty uneconomical.

Unfortunately, I think we are stuck with what we got, and we will tinker with it like extend the line from Downsview (with all its expected condo developments) to York University, and a few tweaks here and there -- that is all I can really forsee in the next 20 years.

I think because of the existing infrastructure, the car mentality, the infrastructure funding mechanisms, the poor management track record of large capital projects, I think we will be lucky if we can just catch up to Montreal, never mind thinking that our subway map can resemble anything like New York or London (I don't want to embarass Toronto further by comparing it with the Japanese ones).
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