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Old May 28th, 2008, 11:13 PM   #741
iampuking
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More "authentic underground"

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Old May 29th, 2008, 12:17 AM   #742
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More "authentic underground"


Thanks.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 08:14 AM   #743
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metro systems in mainland China DON'T even belong anywhere near the best in the world. I personally rode Beijing's subway in 2005 and it was a piece of shit. Even after the new lines open, I believe it will still be a piece of shit. I haven't been on the other cities' systems, but they would be pieces of shit as well. Mainland China doesn't have the common sense or capability to create efficient world-class systems because the communist government always interferes with the engineers' planning even though the government officials know less. So we shouldn't expect any mainland metros to be considered one of the top, no matter how fast the networks are expanding. HK has a top-notch system. It's just too bad China's leaders are too damn ignorant to realize the exemplary quality and efficiency.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 08:55 AM   #744
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^ Quite a lot of ignorant comments there considering these subway systems are built with the assistance of foreign-firms, from design to the actual rolling stock.

In fact, Hong Kong's MTR is a major consultant / builder of mainland subway lines.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 08:58 AM   #745
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metro systems in mainland China DON'T even belong anywhere near the best in the world. I personally rode Beijing's subway in 2005 and it was a piece of shit. Even after the new lines open, I believe it will still be a piece of shit. I haven't been on the other cities' systems, but they would be pieces of shit as well. Mainland China doesn't have the common sense or capability to create efficient world-class systems because the communist government always interferes with the engineers' planning even though the government officials know less. So we shouldn't expect any mainland metros to be considered one of the top, no matter how fast the networks are expanding. HK has a top-notch system. It's just too bad China's leaders are too damn ignorant to realize the exemplary quality and efficiency.
Are implying that we should judge the efficiency of a transit system according to the politics of its government and ignore all other relevant factors?
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Old May 29th, 2008, 09:46 AM   #746
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Actually, I wasn't aiming at a political diatribe with my message and if I did, I'm sorry. What I was saying is that a lot of metros in China are controlled by the government and the planners and those in power have a habit of not respecting opinions or input or feedback. No matter how large or extensive a city's system is, it can still be mediocre if it doesn't run well. For example, many systems close too early and when I took Beijing's subway going through the process was quite a hassle and for someone who's tired after a day of walking out in hot weather with little patience it's not a good experience. Plus, the stations and layouts are not designed with consideration for optimal solutions. Maybe some studying and thinking helps. And advice from others.
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Old May 30th, 2008, 07:02 AM   #747
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When it comes to design, I doubt there is anyone out there that is doing it all right. That's what happens when things age and standards change upon the passage of time. Obviously, the infrastructure wouldn't change in step with the standards. New York has plenty of awfully-designed stations that are in a dire need of a retrofit. Come summer, it's 50C down there.
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Old May 30th, 2008, 09:47 AM   #748
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Quote:
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Are implying that we should judge the efficiency of a transit system according to the politics of its government and ignore all other relevant factors?
Don't worry. He also wants to blow up the entire skyline of Shanghai since they are "like the Tower of Babel" and "the earthquakes were a sign of god"! Do not give any attention to him. It seems to me "Philadelphia" is not the CITY he lives in, but rather the sanatory!

I do not even believe he went to Beijing. This was just one of his fatasies when he forgot his pills!
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Old October 13th, 2008, 03:31 AM   #749
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I think we need to think about which subway network is "fun, interesting and nice to use" and for me London Underground and the NYC Subway are the only networks that I have been on (which is many) that are fun, interesting and nice...
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Old October 13th, 2008, 05:41 AM   #750
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I wasn't aware the purpose of a subway was to be fun and interesting.

Surely I'd visit a carnival or theme park if what I wanted was fun and interesting rides?
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Old October 14th, 2008, 01:03 AM   #751
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I wasn't aware the purpose of a subway was to be fun and interesting.

Surely I'd visit a carnival or theme park if what I wanted was fun and interesting rides?
You know what I mean...you don't use it for entertainment, but you would rather it be fun and interesting e.g. have history and character than he some blank and clinical looking thing like some of the new networks...
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Old October 14th, 2008, 06:57 AM   #752
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You know what I mean...you don't use it for entertainment, but you would rather it be fun and interesting e.g. have history and character than he some blank and clinical looking thing like some of the new networks...
No not particularly - I prefer mine to be deadly efficient and merely a medium for getting from one place to the other, but each to their own.

I can see the charm behind the NYC Subway and London Underground, but it's not for me.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 06:50 PM   #753
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No not particularly - I prefer mine to be deadly efficient and merely a medium for getting from one place to the other, but each to their own.

I can see the charm behind the NYC Subway and London Underground, but it's not for me.
NYC subway - smell of urine, 50C and humid in a heat wave, trash on the floor and down between rails, rats, deafening noise... charming indeed.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 07:22 PM   #754
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Clearly some people like that as opposed to the sterile and clean ones.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 02:38 AM   #755
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NYC subway - smell of urine, 50C and humid in a heat wave, trash on the floor and down between rails, rats, deafening noise... charming indeed.
Moscow - 50m queues behind escalators at rush hour, escalators that take 3 minutes to get to the surface (and look like mausoleums), grim Soviet trains that make you deaf even though the routes are relatively straight, 1 tonne chandeliers, held on by measly attachments, dangling above your head, bizarre socialist propaganda everywhere you look...

But hey, if it didn't have any of that it would be boring like any Asian metro.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 03:52 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Moscow - 50m queues behind escalators at rush hour, escalators that take 3 minutes to get to the surface (and look like mausoleums), grim Soviet trains that make you deaf even though the routes are relatively straight, 1 tonne chandeliers, held on by measly attachments, dangling above your head, bizarre socialist propaganda everywhere you look...

But hey, if it didn't have any of that it would be boring like any Asian metro.
I am not sure why you brought Moscow here, but if says so..

Moscow - 50m queues behind escalators at rush hour,

50m? have you measured them? if it happend to be captured on youtube - is it really that typical or it happened a few times because an escaltor on the opposite side of the station was being replaced?

escalators that take 3 minutes to get to the surface

only a few are deep, and you can walk on the left to cut time in half

(and look like mausoleums),

cannot comment - never been to mausoleums; moreover I have been on escalators on other systems and do not even comprehend what you are attempting to say here

grim Soviet trains

matter of your opinion, IMO trains are fine, and I like the old ones more than new

that make you deaf even though the routes are relatively straight,

please provide noise level in dB inside trains in Moscow and other systems to justify this claim

1 tonne chandeliers, held on by measly attachments, dangling above your head,

what is your problem? any of them ever fallen down?

bizarre socialist propaganda everywhere you look

bizarre or not and how else to qualify it is matter of opinion, in addition, of the 176 or so stations only a few dozen have it

In all, if you do not like it - it is your problem.

Back to facts, not bad mouthing:

at least second largest system by the number of passengers served (Tokyo is the largest by a small margin if one disregards double-counting when people switch between the two systems)

at 41.6 km/hr - the fastest average commercial speed of any comparable size system (in fact few small systems can match it)

one of the most, if not the most architecturally diverse

makes ends meet by covering operating expenses from revenues

clean, safe, liked by its citizens, a tourist attaction by itself

actively expanding

I am not saying it is the best one or that it has no room for improvement, but what other system can claim this combination?
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Old October 16th, 2008, 12:48 AM   #757
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I am not sure why you brought Moscow here, but if says so..

Moscow - 50m queues behind escalators at rush hour,

50m? have you measured them? if it happend to be captured on youtube - is it really that typical or it happened a few times because an escaltor on the opposite side of the station was being replaced?

escalators that take 3 minutes to get to the surface

only a few are deep, and you can walk on the left to cut time in half

(and look like mausoleums),

cannot comment - never been to mausoleums; moreover I have been on escalators on other systems and do not even comprehend what you are attempting to say here

grim Soviet trains

matter of your opinion, IMO trains are fine, and I like the old ones more than new

that make you deaf even though the routes are relatively straight,

please provide noise level in dB inside trains in Moscow and other systems to justify this claim

1 tonne chandeliers, held on by measly attachments, dangling above your head,

what is your problem? any of them ever fallen down?

bizarre socialist propaganda everywhere you look

bizarre or not and how else to qualify it is matter of opinion, in addition, of the 176 or so stations only a few dozen have it

In all, if you do not like it - it is your problem.

Back to facts, not bad mouthing:

at least second largest system by the number of passengers served (Tokyo is the largest by a small margin if one disregards double-counting when people switch between the two systems)

at 41.6 km/hr - the fastest average commercial speed of any comparable size system (in fact few small systems can match it)

one of the most, if not the most architecturally diverse

makes ends meet by covering operating expenses from revenues

clean, safe, liked by its citizens, a tourist attaction by itself

actively expanding

I am not saying it is the best one or that it has no room for improvement, but what other system can claim this combination?
Someone gives it out, but can't take it back. Anyway, you're completely missing the point. It's not the specific flaws in the system but the fact that no system is flawless and that's what makes it interesting. So just like someone could find the grim Soviet trains interesting, you do, but others see it badly, whereas someone could think it's fun the fact that NY Subway trains squeal round corners and deafen everyone in the process.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 02:33 AM   #758
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NYC subway - smell of urine, 50C and humid in a heat wave, trash on the floor and down between rails, rats... charming indeed.
Every caracteristics of Paris metro.
In term of cleaness, Paris and NYC subway have a lot in common.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 04:07 AM   #759
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While george was clearly delusional, I do agree with him that mainland China metros will not deserve to be on a list of the best in the world until they fix two things:
1) Frequency - many lines in Shanghai operate at over 10 minute frequencies, EVEN AT RUSH HOUR! This is ridiculous. At absolute minimum all lines should run at 5 minute frequencies.
2) Opening hours - it is absolutely pathetic that metros in cities of over 10 million close at 10:30 every single day. You can't go out at night and rely on the metro to get home, and that's just wrong.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 06:05 AM   #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Someone gives it out, but can't take it back. Anyway, you're completely missing the point. It's not the specific flaws in the system but the fact that no system is flawless and that's what makes it interesting. So just like someone could find the grim Soviet trains interesting, you do, but others see it badly, whereas someone could think it's fun the fact that NY Subway trains squeal round corners and deafen everyone in the process.
Which point am I missing? I have not come up with this thread title.

I perfectly reallise that no system may be perfect at any given time, so what? Each has flaws? That does say anything. Let me explain what you do not understand (or pretend to not understand). There are flaws and there are flaws. Here is anecdote to illustrate.


************************
A woman walks along street, a drunk guy follows her.

Hey, he says, you have crooked legs!

She does not respond but walks faster.

Hey, have you heard me, you have crooked legs!

Leave me alone, drunk hooligan, she says.

So what? I will sober tomorrow BUT YOU HAVE CROOKED LEGS!
************************

Moscow will be sober tomorrow. What about NYC?

IMO if there is one US system that has been done fundamentally right and belongs to this thread - it is Washington DC. And by the way - you say that every system has flaws. Which flaws does this system have in your opinion? I used it quite a few times and have found any particular flaws.
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Last edited by anm; October 16th, 2008 at 06:11 AM.
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