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Old May 27th, 2009, 10:29 PM   #801
Abhishek901
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Looking for best metro ?? Read this !!

Dear forumers, I feel that the discussion of the best metro here is worthless if you only look at the subway systems of developed countries only, such as London, Paris, NY, Tokyo etc. World has changed a lot since 1863, the time when first underground train rolled in London. At that time it was developed world which showed the way to other countries but now it's other way round. Don't want to believe me ?? See yourself !!

London Mayor visted Delhi metro to see how metro systems should be built and operated ?? SHOCKED !!!
See here: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...Ken/article.do

Londoners should travel to Delhi if they want a preview of what Crossrail will be like. That's what the London Mayor said on a visit to Delhi. The Mayor believes the Indian capital's modern underground system is the perfect model for the £16 billion high-speed line that is due to open in 2017.

Mr Livingstone said: "This is exactly the model we would want for Crossrail - much bigger, wider trains running on really smooth surfaces. This is what we will see in London when we open Crossrail in 10 years. It's just so much more comfortable."

He contrasted the speed of construction of the Delhi Metro with the 30 years it had taken to convince government of the need for Crossrail, which will link Heathrow with the City, Canary Wharf and beyond. However he said it was unlikely such tight security could ever be introduced in London.

In previous posts, people were fighting on the topic whether Delhi metro is better than London Underground but unforntunately there were no concrete examples given by any of them either in favour or against it. I guess there can't be a better proof than this one. If London "dreams" of getting a metro as good as Delhi then I guess there is no scope of arguments now. Not just this, London would be starting crossrail in 2017, 15 years after Delhi metro started operations. Even after 15 years in future, London is hoping to get what Delhi has now !! Then how can we compare London's 1863 system with Delhi's modren system. (Sorry, if I was too harsh)

Few forumers have said that how can Delhi metro be the best one when they haven't even heard of it. Then how could London mayor know about it ?? Shouldn't we call it ignorance if people don't know about outside world and are contented with their own imperialistic ideas. Infact, this not the fault of the forumers but it is the mindset which humans develop. We don't like to hear that a poorer country is better than us in a particular thing, and that's human tendency. Being a Delhiite, even I would be shocked if someone tells me that, say Kenya is building a metro more advanced than Delhi's.

Some forumers said that Delhi metro is too inadequate to be counted as the best. They are right but partially. Delhi metro started construction in late 1998 and opened 1st line in 2002. In next 18 years (2002 - 2020), Delhi will have a metro larger than that of the London's. That would mean Delhi would achieve in 20 years which took London one and a half century. Delhi metro has just started guys, and it would be inappropriate to call it inadequate, since it is furiously expanding. Delhi is building 413 km of metro by 2020.
See the Delhi metro masterplan here : http://www.delhimetrorail.com/commut...ro_map_big.jpg

I could give such details coz I live in Delhi and I am a big metrophile. I haven't travelled in any other metro so I would not like to give any baseless feeedbacks/comments etc.

I am not trying to boast about Delhi metro by giving such details. What I am trying to say is that we are discussing the best metro in the world and not the best one in the developed world. Even if you ask my personal views, I would still not say that Delhi metro is the best because I don't have first hand experience of others.

I am liberal enough to say that I have seen photos of Beijing subway, which are class apart, and much better than Delhi metro. If you ask me about London Underground, I would say that the Underground has "something" in it (whether it is its history or something else) which sets it apart from rest of the world's systems. Even though Delhi and others have more modern and better metro system but they can never be compared with London's; it's just unique.

If you talk on technical grounds, then yes, Delhi metro is one of the strongest contenders of the best metro. It is the most punctual in world (google and see it). It is the first metro to get ISO 14001 certification. It is the first one to introduce contactless automatic fare collection technology. It has received many awards in Europe, and has been declared there as the safest and most environment friendly metro ever (Sorry, I forgot the name of that award which described the last sentence, google it.) And other generic features which are still a luxury for London Underground, like AC trains and stations (u/g), automatic train operation and control (ATO & ATC), lifts and escalators in each station, huge parking facilities at each station, good speed, less noisy and much smoother and wider trains etc etc....

But Delhi metro is aesthetically not the best, that should go to Beijing subway.

Therefore, the best metro title is too subjective. We need to include technical, historic, aesthetic aspects etc. together to reach a conclusion rather than just talking about personal experiences coz each experience is different from other. Even in overall terms, Delhi metro is still one of the strongest contenders.

Finally, I would like to apoplogise if anybody has found any remark on London Underground wrong. I just gave unbiased views. And I myself have high regards for the Underground. I hope that the discussion will now move in more positive way.
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Old May 28th, 2009, 02:00 AM   #802
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I only had the chance of using Korea and Madrid's metro. I really don't mind how pretty stations are, how hightech, or how many kilometer and bla bla bla. Don't get me wrong im not saying these points are not important.

I don't know about you guys, but firts thing I look for when I get into the train, is a damn SEAT! I been walking all day maybe shopping or out with friends, last thing I want to do is stand up all the way home. My legs are already killing me and if im going to be standing up i migth as well have walked home.

In Korea getting a seat was lot harder than in Madrid because the amount of users, not only that. Korea also seem to have more elderly people, or thats the feeling i got. Is problably because once i got a seat i found myself quite often in that moral position of giving my seat to an elderly person. (sometimes i acted like i was sleeping ) but anyways Madrid rocked for less overcrowed trains and making my legs rest.
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Old May 28th, 2009, 03:23 AM   #803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Delhi metro started construction in late 1998 and opened 1st line in 2002.

It is the first one to introduce contactless automatic fare collection technology.
No. Hong Kong MTR introduced contactless fare collection in 1997.

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The Octopus card is a rechargeable contactless stored value smart card used to transfer electronic payments in online or offline systems in Hong Kong. Launched in September 1997 to collect fares for the territory's mass transit system, the Octopus card system was the first contactless smart card system in the world and has since grown into a widely used payment system for virtually all public transport in Hong Kong.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card
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Old May 28th, 2009, 04:10 AM   #804
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There were tones of metro systems to introduce 'contactless automatic fare collection technology' long before 2002.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smart_cards
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Old May 28th, 2009, 07:35 AM   #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybean View Post
No. Hong Kong MTR introduced contactless fare collection in 1997.


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card
On top of which, the Octopus is revolutionary for it's city-wide use ~ i.e., not being limited to the MTR only.
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Old May 28th, 2009, 09:54 AM   #806
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Old May 29th, 2009, 12:47 AM   #807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
But Delhi metro is aesthetically not the best, that should go to Beijing subway.
Please tell me you're kidding.

And your arguments complaining of the lack of modern facilities forget that it is much harder to install modern facilities on to an old system than to build them onto a system from day one!
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Old May 29th, 2009, 12:57 PM   #808
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Thanks for your post, and although I don't really agree with you on many parts I did enjoy reading it. Below are some comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Dear forumers, I feel that the discussion of the best metro here is worthless if you only look at the subway systems of developed countries only, such as London, Paris, NY, Tokyo etc. World has changed a lot since 1863, the time when first underground train rolled in London. At that time it was developed world which showed the way to other countries but now it's other way round. Don't want to believe me ?? See yourself !!
I don't see you point here. Any new system is worth looking at and it is pretty obvious that developed countries generally developed their infrastructure quite some time ago so the majority of new systems will naturally be in developing countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Londoners should travel to Delhi if they want a preview of what Crossrail will be like. That's what the London Mayor said on a visit to Delhi. The Mayor believes the Indian capital's modern underground system is the perfect model for the £16 billion high-speed line that is due to open in 2017.
Well, he is not actually the Mayor any more and if we start quoting everything Ken Livingston has said in his political career we would have an endless debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Mr Livingstone said: "This is exactly the model we would want for Crossrail - much bigger, wider trains running on really smooth surfaces. This is what we will see in London when we open Crossrail in 10 years. It's just so much more comfortable."
Pretty obvious statement. The original underground was developed quite some time ago when technology had trouble boring the wide tunnels we use today. Still, at the time it was amazing stuff. Any new system, whether in Delhi, Singapore, Madrid or the new Crossrail in London will be more comfortable. You have to also realize that these people are politicians. He would say the same thing if he visited any new system in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
He contrasted the speed of construction of the Delhi Metro with the 30 years it had taken to convince government of the need for Crossrail, which will link Heathrow with the City, Canary Wharf and beyond. However he said it was unlikely such tight security could ever be introduced in London.
The speed of construction in Delhi is a lot easier than in London because wages are so much lower, overall costs are cheaper, safety levels are a fraction of what is required in the UK and much more care must be made with existing land owners following the routes. Just look at all the slum dwellers in India who are thrown out of their homes which are immediately destroyed when the railways wish to expand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
In previous posts, people were fighting on the topic whether Delhi metro is better than London Underground but unforntunately there were no concrete examples given by any of them either in favour or against it. I guess there can't be a better proof than this one. If London "dreams" of getting a metro as good as Delhi then I guess there is no scope of arguments now.
Well, if I am correct, London Underground has a network length of approx 408km. If you add in the suburban rail within just the city proper political area this is around 800km of route passenger rail. The direct urban area has more than 1000km. Comparing this to the 77km of metro in Delhi right now I know which I would prefer. Those new lines and stations are only good if you are close to them, and I would imagine the majority of people in Delhi are not.

Of course, it is growing, but until that is complete it is simply not comparable to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Not just this, London would be starting crossrail in 2017, 15 years after Delhi metro started operations.
What is your point here? One could also say that Delhi opened it's first metro line in 2002 139years after London opened their first line. The new Crossrail in London is not a metro, so it is opening it's first line in 2017 which is still ahead of Delhi which does not yet have a Crossrail equivilent (correct me if I am wrong)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Even after 15 years in future, London is hoping to get what Delhi has now !! Then how can we compare London's 1863 system with Delhi's modren system. (Sorry, if I was too harsh)
No. Excusing Ken Livingstone's political comments, London is not hoping to get what Delhi has now. London is hoping to get a modern Crossrail line which is by the way completely different in design, style and use to Delhi's metro. It is closer to the RER in Paris or the S-bahn's in Germany as it is a commuter rail line that passes through the city center and out the other side. What London is hoping to get is a new modern rail line.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Few forumers have said that how can Delhi metro be the best one when they haven't even heard of it. Then how could London mayor know about it ?? Shouldn't we call it ignorance if people don't know about outside world and are contented with their own imperialistic ideas. Infact, this not the fault of the forumers but it is the mindset which humans develop. We don't like to hear that a poorer country is better than us in a particular thing, and that's human tendency. Being a Delhiite, even I would be shocked if someone tells me that, say Kenya is building a metro more advanced than Delhi's.
Have you ever been to a rock concert from an International artist. Ever heard them screem out "Helloooo [enter name of city here]", ever hear them pass off a few phrases of how [enter name of city here] is the best city they visited on tour? Ever year the delighted screams from the crowd? This is exactly what Ken is doing and you fell right into it. It's plotical grooming.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Some forumers said that Delhi metro is too inadequate to be counted as the best. They are right but partially. Delhi metro started construction in late 1998 and opened 1st line in 2002. In next 18 years (2002 - 2020), Delhi will have a metro larger than that of the London's. That would mean Delhi would achieve in 20 years which took London one and a half century. Delhi metro has just started guys, and it would be inappropriate to call it inadequate, since it is furiously expanding. Delhi is building 413 km of metro by 2020.
That's great for Delhi, and I have no doubt when it is complete at that length I will look at it in a different light. Of course, one must then compare it with the over 1000km of rail in London which by then will include Crossrail, the Underground, the Overground, the DLR and the suburban rail ;O)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
If you talk on technical grounds, then yes, Delhi metro is one of the strongest contenders of the best metro. It is the most punctual in world (google and see it). It is the first metro to get ISO 14001 certification. It is the first one to introduce contactless automatic fare collection technology. It has received many awards in Europe, and has been declared there as the safest and most environment friendly metro ever (Sorry, I forgot the name of that award which described the last sentence, google it.) And other generic features which are still a luxury for London Underground, like AC trains and stations (u/g), automatic train operation and control (ATO & ATC), lifts and escalators in each station, huge parking facilities at each station, good speed, less noisy and much smoother and wider trains etc etc....
Now these are very good points and merits to Delhi's metro. If it continues like this by 2020 when it has a much larger network it will certainly be one of the world's best metro's. But, we live in today, not 2020. Today it is a fantastic small metro system. But as it only services a small fraction of the city, it is hard for me to consider it one of the best.

And who knows what will happen to London's metro system by 2020. Changes also to the existing stations, trains, services and lines. Plans change all the time. Although right now there are only some small additions to the "Underground" system there are many improvements going on to existing infrastructure. Maybe past 2020 the new "Overground" system as it's called will be linked directly as part of London's overall "Metro" or other suburban lines maybe modified and updated to metro standards. Crossrail, which is what started this discussion in the first place with Red Ken's comments is not technically a metro, but will also be part of the new network. New lines may also be build as new governments can change plans pretty quickly. 2020 is quite a way off.
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Old May 29th, 2009, 06:25 PM   #809
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Thanks for your reply. I am happy that you have analysed it in detail. I agree with many of your points. My aim was not to prove that Delhi metro is better than London but to highlight facts about it so that many of the forumers who do not know anything about Delhi metro but know Underground can get a fair idea of both. A comparison is justified only when people know both of them. Isn't it !!

Regarding some of your statements :-

You said - Standards of safety is low in Delhi as compared to London.
That's true if you are talking about road transport but here we are talking about metro. Delhi metro has got many awards for safety and it is much safer than London's (being a newer system)

You said - it is cheaper to construct metro in Delhi than London.
Point taken. But isn't UK dozens of times richer than India ? Isn't this true that UK has much more funds at its disposal as compared to India ? So I guess it netralizes this fact.

You said - People are easily thrown out of their homes for construction of metro.
I think you are confusing it with China. I wish what you have said would have been a reality. Infact the biggest drawback of democracy in India is that everybody can refuse to part with their land and govt. has to "plead" to people for evacuation. Many projects in India get delayed because of that like that of Tata Nano.

You said - London has 800 km of urban rail etc.
Have I denied it ?? We were only talking about metro. Even Delhi has 100s of kms of commuter rail operated by Indian Railways (on shared tracks), but I haven't mentioned that coz it's inappropriate topic for this thread. I could have even said that Delhi proper has 6 million motor vehicles and its metropolitan region (NCR) has 11.2 million which is even more than population of Greater London (8 million). See here: http://www.igovernment.in/site/traff...i-ncr-workers/. But I know that it is a different thing. I was just comparing one metro with other, so inclusion of other transport system is inappropriate.

On one hand you said that London's is not as modern coz it was built early (139 years befor Delhi), so there cannot be any comparison and on the other you said that do not talk about future exapnsion of Delhi metro, presently it is just 77 km old. Isn't that unfair ? For quality you say that London was good at its heydays and for length you say that talk about present length. If you talk about present then atleast do not bring such an excuse over quality !! After all a commuter will look for quality service whether it's old or new !

Regarding Crossrail, what I meant was that it is being built in future but still they dream of current technology of Delhi metro (according to Ken Livingstone, the then mayor of London). Sure, there is no equivalent of crossrail in Delhi and I do not expect one in next 20 years, but that's about its route and way of coverage (i.e. crossing the city to connect distant places). Roll back and you will find that I (and mayor) was talking about quality of construction and operation and not about length or coverage. Wont the construction and operation methods be similar ? Is crossrail being constructed in deep sea and will it have spaceships running in it ?

You said - Ken said so (praised Delhi metro) because he visited there and it's political grooming.
You would have been absolutely right if he had visited Delhi for diplomatic/ political purposes and just came for a joyride in the metro and praised it. But he actually came only to see how Delhi metro is actually like and how is it operated. I am sure you would agree with me that he didn't came there just for political grooming. And not just he, many foreign ministers including prime minister of Japan and many of equal stature from many other countries have visited Delhi metro to see it. (google it to confirm). If so many ministers visited Delhi metro then there there must be something in it !!

You said - it cannot be called best when it does not serves a great part of the city.
Rightly said. But think other way. You have 1 glass of water and you dissolve 1 spoon sugar in it. You have another glass of water 10 times larger and you dissolve 10 spoons of sugar in it. In both of the cases water will be equally sweet. Compare this case with Delhi metro. In future when metro covers whole city, it will still remain the same metro (or maybe slightly better with newer technology). So how can we say that it was not not good when it was 77 km but became good suddenly when it became larger. Quality remains same !! Now taking another view, bigger glass will quench thirst of 10 people. In that case you are right. Delhi metro will be the smaller glass. But as I already said, sweetness is not dependent on volume !! Quality of metro is independent of length. Give it some time dude, it is a very challenging task to construct more than 400 km in 20 odd years and that too in a developing country.

I again want to say that these things may still not make Delhi metro the best but atleast forumers and others can get a glimpse of the system which is not popular in west. I just wanted to give it a platform where it can compete with numerous other metros, though the choice is finally yours !! We are Democratic

And one more fact about Delhi metro. When Delhi metro was first officially announced, it was hardly a 150 km plan. As Delhi metro started dotting the face of Delhi, the masterplan grew larger and larger, year by year. Within 6 years, the masterplan was gradually revised from 150 odd km to 413 km (2002-2008). Those lines which were not even part of the masterplan as late as 2003 were/are being constructed in 2006-2010 phase (Phase II of metro) such as the airport express line and few others. Some parts of Delhi and suburbs are still untouched in the latest masterplan (due to the sheer vastness of the city. The core city itself is 1483 sq km and the metropolitan region many times larger) As time proceeds futher and depending on past experience, I can hope that Delhi metro will cross 600 km mark in next 15 years.
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Old May 29th, 2009, 06:45 PM   #810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Please tell me you're kidding.

And your arguments complaining of the lack of modern facilities forget that it is much harder to install modern facilities on to an old system than to build them onto a system from day one!
My views on Beijing subway are so because I have seen them in this forum in the Beijing subway thread. Many stations were ultra-modern (in looks, I don't know about their practicality). Maybe they were only on newer lines, that's why you are surprised

Talking about modern facilities in London's, don't you think that being older will not make it better when compared to newer subways. Whether old or new, every commuter would like to have good facilities. Being old seems to be more of an excuse rather than praise. Will you say that when Pamela Anderson is 70 years old, she will look sexiest on earth coz she was sexy in her 20s ? You will have to give the sexiest title to some newer younger face !
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Old May 29th, 2009, 06:47 PM   #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybean View Post
No. Hong Kong MTR introduced contactless fare collection in 1997.


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card
Ok, point taken. Might be my mistake. But will that make Delhi metro inferior in any respect ? Aren't my arguments still valid ?
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Old May 29th, 2009, 06:53 PM   #812
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The discussion has suddenly become more practical, rather than just popping up different names without any justification. Pleased to see that.
Keep it going Skyscrapercity
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Old May 29th, 2009, 07:05 PM   #813
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There were tones of metro systems to introduce 'contactless automatic fare collection technology' long before 2002.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smart_cards
The link which you have provided talks about non-metro systems as well. I was talking about metro.

@ Skybean : Did Hong Kong introduced both contactless tokens and smart cards in 1997 ?? I have read at many sites that Delhi metro was the first metro to introduce contactless tokens. Maybe the technical aspects might be different which we are not able to figure out
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Old May 30th, 2009, 01:17 AM   #814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
The link which you have provided talks about non-metro systems as well. I was talking about metro.

@ Skybean : Did Hong Kong introduced both contactless tokens and smart cards in 1997 ?? I have read at many sites that Delhi metro was the first metro to introduce contactless tokens. Maybe the technical aspects might be different which we are not able to figure out
You said 'contactless automatic fare collection technology'. This is what HK MTR done in 1997 and Moscow metro done in 1998 by implementing usage of smart cards. You didn't said what kind of collection technology you are talking about about. I don't know about HK MTR, but Moscow metro stopped using tokens/coins in early 1990's. And tokens is not a contactless technology...
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Old May 30th, 2009, 04:29 AM   #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
My views on Beijing subway are so because I have seen them in this forum in the Beijing subway thread. Many stations were ultra-modern (in looks, I don't know about their practicality). Maybe they were only on newer lines, that's why you are surprised

Talking about modern facilities in London's, don't you think that being older will not make it better when compared to newer subways. Whether old or new, every commuter would like to have good facilities. Being old seems to be more of an excuse rather than praise. Will you say that when Pamela Anderson is 70 years old, she will look sexiest on earth coz she was sexy in her 20s ? You will have to give the sexiest title to some newer younger face !
I think London's age is a positive thing. But that is from the perspective of an enthusiast. Age is a very legitimate reason for old system's shortcomings, it is much easier, for example, to build A/C into a system right from the start then to add it onto a system that was built before A/C even existed!

Beijing's system is sterile and plain, why does everyone on SSC immediately assume that modern equals attractive? There are far more beautiful modern stations in other cities, and many more beautiful old ones, too.
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Old May 30th, 2009, 04:52 AM   #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
The link which you have provided talks about non-metro systems as well. I was talking about metro.

@ Skybean : Did Hong Kong introduced both contactless tokens and smart cards in 1997 ?? I have read at many sites that Delhi metro was the first metro to introduce contactless tokens. Maybe the technical aspects might be different which we are not able to figure out
Hong Kong has never used contactless tokens. Before 1997, the MTR used a card reader system. It`s always been in card form, but nowadays you can also have Octopus RFID chips embedded into cell phones and watches. The technology is the same, it`s only the form factor that`s different.

I don`t know whether Delhi is the first to have contactless tokens, but Shenzhen also has had them for several years.

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Old May 30th, 2009, 12:05 PM   #817
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A couple of mainland Chinese cities use tokens. I recall Guangzhou also had those.
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Old May 30th, 2009, 02:01 PM   #818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
I think London's age is a positive thing. But that is from the perspective of an enthusiast. Age is a very legitimate reason for old system's shortcomings, it is much easier, for example, to build A/C into a system right from the start then to add it onto a system that was built before A/C even existed!

Beijing's system is sterile and plain, why does everyone on SSC immediately assume that modern equals attractive? There are far more beautiful modern stations in other cities, and many more beautiful old ones, too.
I agree with your point but I believe that we should look from the perspective of a commuter. He/she will definitely prefer to have a modern system rather than an older and historic system, unless he is emotionally attached to it. Don't you think that many Londoners will prefer uprooting the existing system with historic relevance and emotional attachment for building an altogether new system. It's us who are lovers of subway systems but a regular commuter will not have that much attachment. If you ask him, he will give a higher score to a new and modern system than a historically important system.

Regarding my views on Beijing subway, they are my personal views which I cannot impose on anybody. The reason why I rate it most attractive is because of its station designes which I saw in Beijing subway thread here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=689598&page=5
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=689598&page=6
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=689598&page=7

^ The stations seen here are not sterile and plain. Anyways these are my personal views and everybody has a different taste.
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Old May 30th, 2009, 06:05 PM   #819
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^ Well maybe. But then again, the average person would rather listen to cheesy crap pop rubbish. Do we then call this the best music in the world? ;O)
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Old May 30th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #820
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I think Santiago de Chile has the best, by far.
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