daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 29th, 2011, 09:08 PM   #101
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

platform screening doors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I've never felt unsafe in the subway in Vienna which doesn't have any screening at all. You hear from time to time about people falling onto the tracks. But this is mostly people doing insane stuff to themselves or between two drunk.

Unless it would make sense for some other technical reasons I don't see why much money should be spent on implementing that feature. And as I side remark, I'd also think it would totally ruin the general subway station design here as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Yep, it 'steals' the feeling of a train. With the screen doors u feel like using a regular elevator and not a metro train.
Trains should be as safe as possible, and it is undeniable that platform screening doors are a safety feature (like seatbelts and jetways are for airplanes, for instance).

Bruxelles Metro is not a heritage railway where "character" or "feeling" is relevant more than safety is.

Then, let's go to the technical stuff:

- UTO (unmanned train operation, a.k.a., trains without drivers) require centimetric precision of movements. That involves a series of improvements on signaling that guarantees the train is actively (not merely passively) stopping at the same spot on the platforms (among many other impacts)

- once you get UTO with CBTC (communication based train control), fitting PSDs with precise locations (you don't want the train doors and PSD to be out of alignment) is easy, pretty much straightforward

- if the ROW were not isolated to PSDs, UTO would be dangerous, because there are reliable system that can make a 3D infrared reading of the station platform and tracks to determine whether some object moving is a passenger about to jump on tracks (or unruly teenagers hanging on the outside back of a departing train) or just moving around. Essentially, PSDs are a necessary feature to guarantee smooth UTO

Also, for many people PSDs greatly increase safety, like parents with children, those with impaired mobility etc. It prevents suicides and murders as well. Looks like they are good deal.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 30th, 2011, 01:05 AM   #102
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,974
Likes (Received): 836

I love it when i agree with Suburbanist because it saves me a lot of typing.


And as to the question where platform screen doors already exist?

Just about every new or refurbished line in Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong (it's an exaggeration, i know... but they are pretty well known, normal, every day things in subways these days, they're not a rarity by any means).
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #103
Filou
Urban dweller
 
Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,826
Likes (Received): 2545

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I
Unless it would make sense for some other technical reasons I don't see why much money should be spent on implementing that feature.
The reason they want to implement it in Brussels is to get trains to ride every 2 minutes or every 2 minutes 30 seconds. It seems that only automated trains can do that.
And with automated trains you need to have these screendoors for safety reasons.
__________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'intrate
Filou no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 02:45 PM   #104
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filou View Post
The reason they want to implement it in Brussels is to get trains to ride every 2 minutes or every 2 minutes 30 seconds. It seems that only automated trains can do that.
.
There are many lines with headway shorter than 200 sec. whose trains have drivers. But it makes sense to go driverless to reduce - sharply - costs.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 03:08 PM   #105
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,597
Likes (Received): 5958

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Trains should be as safe as possible, and it is undeniable that platform screening doors are a safety feature (like seatbelts and jetways are for airplanes, for instance).
Seatbelts in trains would be also a safety feature. But not all safety features possible should be used, but all safety features that are reasonable should be used. I give you another example. The Acela is much more robust and therefore structurally safer than any other HS train. It is madness nonetheless as that increases costs incredibly, makes wear and tear substantially larger while contributing almost nothing to a possible reduction of lethalities in real life. This is over the top and here you have the difference between reasonable and possible.

Platform doors are something that can be reasonable, especially when you have automatic trains without a driver who is constantly checking that everything is fine. But in systems like in Vienna where you have a driver, even though most lines are largely automatic it is questionable to make sense.

There are also quays in Vienna, without a ceiling or anything. If you are afraid of life, you could not walk on them either. But as a matter of fact, people are capable in the vast majority of cases to accept responsibilities and take care of themselves. If they can't you can not help them anyway as they would always find a way to act irresponsible no matter what you do.

Quote:
It prevents suicides and murders as well. Looks like they are good deal.
It prevents no suicide. It makes suicidal people committing suicide somewhere else. That is good for running a subway, but might make things worse for other common targets like commuter rail. In sum this argument is a non-goer.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 03:27 PM   #106
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,597
Likes (Received): 5958

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
There are many lines with headway shorter than 200 sec. whose trains have drivers. But it makes sense to go driverless to reduce - sharply - costs.
That's the question. How much do drivers cost compared to large scale adaption of all subway station of a line, +maintenance and control of the new necessary additional equipment?

Depending on these numbers I would prefer this or that version.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 05:46 PM   #107
Filou
Urban dweller
 
Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,826
Likes (Received): 2545

At the moment the Brussels metro is very busy. This causes strangely enough delays. At a certain point a train is slowing down a little because people are holding doors and because of this little delay a domino effect starts. At the next station more people are at the platform, causing more delay and so on.
The subway company believes that this issue can be handled thanks to the automatic metro.
So in short these are the advantages (says the Brussels Public Transport authority)
1. more capacitiy thanks to more trains per hour.
2. less delays
3. More safety (thanks to the screendoors)
__________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'intrate
Filou no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 07:20 PM   #108
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,974
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
It prevents no suicide. It makes suicidal people committing suicide somewhere else. That is good for running a subway, but might make things worse for other common targets like commuter rail. In sum this argument is a non-goer.
Actually, your opinion defies the research that has been done on this subject.

Strategically placed fences at notorious "suicide hotspots" along train tracks in The Netherlands have decreased the number of suicides.
Believe it or not, there are "opportunity suicides", where people actually DON'T ever commit suicide afterwards if that one easy option is taken away.

Of course this doesn't help for people who chronically want to commit suicide, but tend to use other means, such as overdoses, etc.
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #109
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,974
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post

Platform doors are something that can be reasonable, especially when you have automatic trains without a driver who is constantly checking that everything is fine. But in systems like in Vienna where you have a driver, even though most lines are largely automatic it is questionable to make sense.
From the top of my head i can name 3 examples of the last 10 years where someone was pushed or fell on the tracks and died. And this is just from the top of my head, just from the Amsterdam metro system, just from the last 10 years.

For me, platform screen doors are definitely worth it, as they 100% would have prevented these tragic deaths. Not to mention the ones i don't know about or that will happen in the future.
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #110
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,597
Likes (Received): 5958

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filou View Post
At the moment the Brussels metro is very busy. This causes strangely enough delays. At a certain point a train is slowing down a little because people are holding doors and because of this little delay a domino effect starts. At the next station more people are at the platform, causing more delay and so on.
The subway company believes that this issue can be handled thanks to the automatic metro.
So in short these are the advantages (says the Brussels Public Transport authority)
1. more capacitiy thanks to more trains per hour.
2. less delays
3. More safety (thanks to the screendoors)
What do you mean by "people are holding doors". This has nothing to do with automatic subways. In most systems I know you simply can't hold a door. It will close anyway and you can merely pull out your arm but will have no chance to reopen it. In any case people around that person acting that stupid will be more than just annoyed.

Subways can be automatic, but with a driver in which case you have all the advantages of what you say above, but no need for screendoors. The downside is that you have to pay more drivers.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 07:28 PM   #111
julesstoop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Leiden, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,334
Likes (Received): 80

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshsam View Post
Thanks for these pics Benonie
Ps: Do you know why churchil has only one track and two perrons?
Maybe for different types of trams (with different heights)?
__________________
--
Lapinisme blijft relevant...
julesstoop no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 07:32 PM   #112
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,597
Likes (Received): 5958

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
From the top of my head i can name 3 examples of the last 10 years where someone was pushed or fell on the tracks and died. And this is just from the top of my head, just from the Amsterdam metro system, just from the last 10 years.
I do not doubt that. I am sure you find even more who fell or where pushed into a canal. Not to talk about far more frequent regular traffic accidents with pedestrians.

Nasty stuff can happen. If you "fall" from the sidewalk or are pushed from it on a frequented road, chances are good that you are getting hit by a car. Are you suggesting that is why every side walk needs a railing?

Quote:
For me, platform screen doors are definitely worth it, as they 100% would have prevented these tragic deaths. Not to mention the ones i don't know about or that will happen in the future.
Are you using platforms at railway stations?
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2011, 08:24 PM   #113
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

Platform screen doors are not expensive as they might sound. Actually, the most expensive component (which make PSDs look like costing a lot) are signaling improvements or deployment of CBTC and other stuff. Once that is in place, PSDs are quite simple, not much more expensive than your regular automatic opening glass doors line at a department store.

Really: they are merely doors that open automatically but, instead of relying on a movement sensor, they rely on electronic command given by the track signaling system + some sensor movement that informs the signaling if there is a blocking on the door.

This is like those LCD arrival panels in tram stops: they are cheap and easy to install once all trams in a system are real-time tracked by GPS, radio or other system for other purposes.

Nobody will deploy CBTC only to have PSDs, but once you have it, the marginal costs of putting doors is minimal. And there are many reasons to deploy CBTC, namely increasing frequency and reducing - safely - spacing as it deals with dynamic spacing instead of block-based signaling. Example: CBTC system has trains that keep a safe distance from the train in front based on speed and braking distance, so that faster trains keep more distance, but a slightly delayed train in a station doesn't require the train behind to queue up 300m before, but allows it to slowly break and reach a 15-20m distance and it can start accelerating before waiting the train in front to clear a block.

Once you have CBTC, driverless operations become viable because CBTC implies trains are run automatically by a dynamic set of controls. A driver on a CBTC system is pretty much useless anyway, his/her only function is to open and close doors, or maybe only close doors, and the it is much cheaper to get rid of them and install platform doors.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 1st, 2011, 11:57 AM   #114
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,974
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I do not doubt that. I am sure you find even more who fell or where pushed into a canal. Not to talk about far more frequent regular traffic accidents with pedestrians.

Nasty stuff can happen. If you "fall" from the sidewalk or are pushed from it on a frequented road, chances are good that you are getting hit by a car. Are you suggesting that is why every side walk needs a railing?
Ahhh yes, the old "there's other problems in the world, and since we're not solving those, we can't solve any other problems either"-argument.

Falling in a canal itself is hardly ever fatal (not counting drunkards who fall in at night... alcohol is the problem there). Falling right in front of a metro generally is. And no, i am not saying falling in a canal isn't bad, i'm just saying that for metros it is worse, and for metros there is a reasonable solution: platform screen doors.

If you fall off a platform, you FALL off. With a road you don't have that problem... you just take a step back, done, you're off the road. But just from experience i have NEVER heard of someone being pushed in front of a car here in my country, and i HAVE heard of people being pushed in front of metros. So my priority goes to metro safety... a problem which is much easier solved then putting fences alongside every road...

Quote:
Are you using platforms at railway stations?
We're not even using them at our metro system. But with our train system it would be near impossible because of the wide variety of trains and therefor the distance between doors.


Really, never thought i would have to explain the benefits of platform screen doors to anyone. I get that they are expensive, but to actually hold a cyber-crusade against them? Wow.
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 1st, 2011, 05:26 PM   #115
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,597
Likes (Received): 5958

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Ahhh yes, the old "there's other problems in the world, and since we're not solving those, we can't solve any other problems either"-argument.
Nope. It is the good old "are the costs worth the benefit" argument. And its also the question if it helps if people have to take over less and less responsibility for their own safety.

Quote:
Falling in a canal itself is hardly ever fatal (not counting drunkards who fall in at night... alcohol is the problem there).
So is it for the majority of cases I know of people falling from the platform. And just as a side remark, the majority of those cases are not lethal either. Sorry if I don't get it, but what makes the canal safe enough but the platform not?


Quote:
Falling right in front of a metro generally is. And no, i am not saying falling in a canal isn't bad, i'm just saying that for metros it is worse, and for metros there is a reasonable solution: platform screen doors.
You'd have to time that perfectly in fact to be lethal. All platforms have a security space below. Anyone falling down with the subway more than a few seconds away can move to that space within a moment.

Quote:
If you fall off a platform, you FALL off. With a road you don't have that problem... you just take a step back, done, you're off the road. But just from experience i have NEVER heard of someone being pushed in front of a car here in my country, and i HAVE heard of people being pushed in front of metros. So my priority goes to metro safety... a problem which is much easier solved then putting fences alongside every road...
How many of the car related accidents make it into the newspapers and how many of the metro related accidents? Make a guess. I tell you how many. Almost all metro related accidents are in the news, even those where not much more happens than a train delay. On the other side, car accidents are far to frequent to be anything special so you will never hear about most of them.


Quote:
Really, never thought i would have to explain the benefits of platform screen doors to anyone. I get that they are expensive, but to actually hold a cyber-crusade against them? Wow.
Thats what you claim. I am not holding a cybercrusade. I am saying they are not worth the costs for subway systems where a train driver takes care of the ride. They are important for fully automated driver less services. That's all. No crusade anywhere.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 1st, 2011, 06:36 PM   #116
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,974
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Nope. It is the good old "are the costs worth the benefit" argument. And its also the question if it helps if people have to take over less and less responsibility for their own safety.
How are you responsible when being pushed?
How are you responsible when you faint?
How are you responsible when the brakes on your baby stroller break?

Quote:

So is it for the majority of cases I know of people falling from the platform. And just as a side remark, the majority of those cases are not lethal either. Sorry if I don't get it, but what makes the canal safe enough but the platform not?
A canal is very long and VERY expensive to completely fence in.
A platform is tiny and therefore has a comparatively cheap option: platform screen doors. It's a question of being cost effective...



Quote:
You'd have to time that perfectly in fact to be lethal. All platforms have a security space below. Anyone falling down with the subway more than a few seconds away can move to that space within a moment.
1. Hardly anyone knows about those security spaces below, and not all platforms have them.
2. Good luck hiding under the security space in time when you have broken your leg or are unconscious because you fell on concrete and tracks (don't have that with a canal either... )



Quote:
How many of the car related accidents make it into the newspapers and how many of the metro related accidents? Make a guess. I tell you how many. Almost all metro related accidents are in the news, even those where not much more happens than a train delay. On the other side, car accidents are far to frequent to be anything special so you will never hear about most of them.
That's why they have spent billions trying to make cars safer, and with succes. Cost effective? No, because people still would have bought cars. Expensive, but safer.



Quote:
Thats what you claim. I am not holding a cybercrusade. I am saying they are not worth the costs for subway systems where a train driver takes care of the ride. They are important for fully automated driver less services. That's all. No crusade anywhere.
Every system with platform screen doors i have ever seen had drivers sitting in the front. Apparently all those cities think the platform screen doors are worth the extra safety they provide.
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 1st, 2011, 06:48 PM   #117
Filou
Urban dweller
 
Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,826
Likes (Received): 2545

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
There are many lines with headway shorter than 200 sec. whose trains have drivers.
We are talking here of 120 to 150 seconds, not 200 seconds. But I would be interested to know were these line are. Can you give some examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
What do you mean by "people are holding doors".
You have people, mostly young misbehaved *******s, who hold doors for a sport, and some people hold doors by standing between them and pushing with their backs one way and their leggs the other way. When the driver sees that on his video screen he opens the doors again and tries to close them again.
I, myself ones tried to enter a very crowded metrotrain and when the doors closed my backpack was stuck between the doors. Luckely the driver saw it and reopend the doors.
__________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'intrate
Filou no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 1st, 2011, 07:57 PM   #118
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filou View Post
We are talking here of 120 to 150 seconds, not 200 seconds. But I would be interested to know were these line are. Can you give some examples?
São Paulo, Brazil, has 2 lines operating (I and III) without CBTC on headway lower than 120 sec peak time AFAIK.



Quote:
You have people, mostly young misbehaved *******s, who hold doors for a sport, and some people hold doors by standing between them and pushing with their backs one way and their leggs the other way. When the driver sees that on his video screen he opens the doors again and tries to close them again.
I, myself ones tried to enter a very crowded metrotrain and when the doors closed my backpack was stuck between the doors. Luckely the driver saw it and reopend the doors.
If there are PSDs, a cheap feature to install are infrared sensors (like a motion alarm) that will halt the departure of train should any object (limb, purse, dead rat falling from sky) interfere with it. Cheap and straightforward: two panels with close-ranged parallel circuits activated by infra-red paired sights.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 1st, 2011, 09:20 PM   #119
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,633
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filou View Post
The reason they want to implement it in Brussels is to get trains to ride every 2 minutes or every 2 minutes 30 seconds. It seems that only automated trains can do that.
And with automated trains you need to have these screendoors for safety reasons.
You do not need automation for run 120 second frequencies. Toronto's trains run every 2 minutes on a block signal system, moscow's system is famous for running trains on 1 minute headways.
__________________
The more valuable you perceive your time as worth, the less valuable it actually is.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2011, 01:07 PM   #120
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,597
Likes (Received): 5958

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
How are you responsible when being pushed?How are you responsible when you faint?
How are you responsible when the brakes on your baby stroller break?
As much as when you are pushed into a canal. There have been lethal cases at the subway that I can remember but none of them included someone being pushed by someone else without both having been involved in a fight or something, where both were drunk.

Never heard of the latter incidents, ever nor can I really imagine how someone would manage to achieve something like that. This is unreal.
Quote:
A canal is very long and VERY expensive to completely fence in.
A platform is tiny and therefore has a comparatively cheap option: platform screen doors. It's a question of being cost effective...
What is the length of a station? 100 m? Take that twice, multiply with the statios and consider that platform screening is considerably more expensive than a simple railing. Maybe in Amsterdam it is different, but I am quite certain that in Vienna it would be cheaper to add railing to all central canals rather than adding screen doors to the central subway stations.
Quote:
1. Hardly anyone knows about those security spaces below, and not all platforms have them.
2. Good luck hiding under the security space in time when you have broken your leg or are unconscious because you fell on concrete and tracks (don't have that with a canal either... )
1. In Vienna all lines have them except for U6 which however has much lower platforms, comparable to light rail. If people don't know about it, one can inform them. After all, people know about "the gap" as well.
2. Breaking your leg when falling down a whole meter? Loosing consciousness? These are not very likely scenarios. At least I can't remember one like that.
Quote:
That's why they have spent billions trying to make cars safer, and with succes. Cost effective? No, because people still would have bought cars. Expensive, but safer.
Car accidents are among the most common unnatural causes of death. Investments into car safety have probably saved more people their lives than died in subway related accidents, ever.

Quote:
Every system with platform screen doors i have ever seen had drivers sitting in the front. Apparently all those cities think the platform screen doors are worth the extra safety they provide.
What for? Why the costs for a driver if you have screen doors? Sounds like a waste of money to me. Brussels seems to do it properly. I did not say that screen doors are always a waste of money. In stations with too small platforms or which are often very crowded they can make sense indeed.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK

Last edited by Slartibartfas; October 2nd, 2011 at 01:13 PM.
Slartibartfas está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium