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Old October 2nd, 2011, 01:11 PM   #121
Slartibartfas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If there are PSDs, a cheap feature to install are infrared sensors (like a motion alarm) that will halt the departure of train should any object (limb, purse, dead rat falling from sky) interfere with it. Cheap and straightforward: two panels with close-ranged parallel circuits activated by infra-red paired sights.
Sounds like a fairly cheap and efficient strategy. Do you know of any subway having implemented it?
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 06:40 PM   #122
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As much as when you are pushed into a canal. There have been lethal cases at the subway that I can remember but none of them included someone being pushed by someone else without both having been involved in a fight or something, where both were drunk.
Just because you can't remember it, doesn't make it reality.

Even then, if it is someone else's fault, all the other riders are faced with lengthy delays cause someone falls on the tracks.

Girl pushed in front of metro, dies:
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Archi...an-NADIA.dhtml


Two teens pushed onto subway tracks:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ay-tracks.html
"one of the teens was able to crawl under the platform out of the way of the oncoming eastbound train." the space under the platform saved one, but the other had no time to get out of the way and was hit.

Strangers Save Woman Pushed into Subway Tracks:
http://gothamist.com/2007/12/13/good_samaritans.php

Woman pushed on subway tracks:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...ork&id=7947261

Man pushed in front of subway:
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/27/ny...-attacker.html

Woman pushed against moving subway:
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/08...n_front_o.html

Man pushed on subway tracks:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=3671176


Et cetera, et cetera...




Quote:
Never heard of the latter incidents, ever nor can I really imagine how someone would manage to achieve something like that. This is unreal.
Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't make it reality. That's at the basis of all your replies.

I don't know exactly what you are referring to, so i'll include some videos or sources about accidents.

Stroller on tracks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4aMo...yer_detailpage

Boy falls between tracks and metro after knocking on one of the windows:
http://www.at5.nl/artikelen/52492/ze...ation-lelylaan

Woman faints, falls on tracks and is killed:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...122972403.html

Woman falls or jumps and is hit by train:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...x4plrWgckdidSO

Elderly man with a walker falls on tracks:
http://www.dichtbij.nl/amstelland/re...harovlaan.aspx

Woman falls in between metro and platform:
http://www.rtvnh.nl/nieuws/53999/Ong...etro+Amsterdam

Other woman falls in between metro and platform:
http://www.dichtbij.nl/west-frieslan....aspx?sml=true

Deadly metro accident:
http://www.nufoto.nl/fotos/45503/dod...amsterdam.html



Quote:
What is the length of a station? 100 m? Take that twice, multiply with the statios and consider that platform screening is considerably more expensive than a simple railing. Maybe in Amsterdam it is different, but I am quite certain that in Vienna it would be cheaper to add railing to all central canals rather than adding screen doors to the central subway stations.
Railing all the canals of Amsterdam would put China in bankruptcy.

And once again, falling in a canal lands you in water, not on concrete and steel with a metro heading for you.


Quote:
1. In Vienna all lines have them except for U6 which however has much lower platforms, comparable to light rail. If people don't know about it, one can inform them. After all, people know about "the gap" as well.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/12...rieve-gym-bag/

"She tried to go under the platform because the train was bearing down on her. Then she tried to climb onto the platform, but she couldn't do that."

Getting under the platform apparently doesn't always work, even when you try to get in there.


Quote:
2. Breaking your leg when falling down a whole meter? Loosing consciousness? These are not very likely scenarios. At least I can't remember one like that.
Do you actually live in reality? People die falling of a curb. People drown in buckets.
And even if you don't think you can break a leg falling from a platform, at least i hope you realize people can break their necks falling head first.
You don't think these are likely scenarios, well i have news: they have happened!

"Billings, who suffered a broken leg in the fall, said he thought he was a goner while hewas on the tracks looking at the lights of an approaching train."
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010...it-smart-phone

Quote:
Car accidents are among the most common unnatural causes of death. Investments into car safety have probably saved more people their lives than died in subway related accidents, ever.
Yes, so subway deaths should also be averted to make them even more safe.

Quote:
What for? Why the costs for a driver if you have screen doors? Sounds like a waste of money to me.
Because platfrom screen doors also avert accidents that the driver could never do anything about.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 07:22 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Just because you can't remember it, doesn't make it reality.
Most of those cases you found were actually fights between people, to say the came into their terrible situation innocently is quite a stretch. In any case, you felt so free to search for cases from all over the world over the last 10 years. Guess what, you can find cases for almost all sorts of incidents that way. How many people do you think died by being pushed down the quay into the water? Shouldn't that at least force authorities to put railings at all highly frequented quays? No? How many people died by being hit by lightening? Should be walking outside outlawed during storms?
Quote:
Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't make it reality. That's at the basis of all your replies.
I don't know exactly what you are referring to, so i'll include some videos or sources about accidents.
Regarding the stroller accidents. It is the responsibility of the mother to take care of the trolley and the baby, if a trolly rolls surprisingly on the road just in front of a driving car this can easily end deadly as well. Things like that are said, but people have to take care.

I find it interesting that you quoted some occasions that would not be prevented by door screens either (falling between metro and platform)
Quote:
And once again, falling in a canal lands you in water, not on concrete and steel with a metro heading for you.
I am not going to get into that. This can be as deadly as falling down from a platform and it is hilarious you are denying that. I also know some quays in Vienna were you fall several meters deep and if you are unlucky you are not hitting water but a staircase leading down to the water. I mention that especially because it is a mixed pedestrian bicycle path. But then, this is the risk you can accept that people take over responsibility for. That is why there are no railings even though one could probably afford them.
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Do you actually live in reality? People die falling of a curb. People drown in buckets.
You say it. Outlaw buckets, without anti-drowning features and built railings around curbs!
Quote:
Because platfrom screen doors also avert accidents that the driver could never do anything about.
I think you did not get me. What kind of accidents could a driver avert if there are already screen doors in place which the screen doors do not take care of already themselve?
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 07:58 AM   #124
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This whole discussion is going bizarre.

If some deaths can be prevent at reasonable expenses, let's prevent them! The "people who are pushed in a subway were fighting" argument is similar to that downplaying events of road rage that go violent ("they must have done some stupid in transit and deserved a shakedown or smashed window anyway").

It also reminds me of the occasional forumer, activist or cynic politician trying to justify leaving vandalized (graffiti) cars tagged as they are because "people will tag anyway, and painting a train is only an invitation for bored teenagers to risk their lived to tag a repainted train again".

In any case, I remember: a very common mistake is to consider signal modernization budget as a "platform screen door" budget because it is the only visible (for the passenger) improvement beyond frequency increase. In fact, platform doors are installed only because 80% of the signaling budget will have been already completed to increase output and flows, regardless of platform doors!

The doors are a mere add-on in an otherwise expensive and needed modernization program (of signaling) whose main goal is NOT to (just) allow the doors.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 09:59 PM   #125
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If some deaths can be prevent at reasonable expenses, let's prevent them!
That's exactly what I am saying. Where we differ is that I think that the expenses are not reasonable for what you get for it. Unless the metro system wants to introduce driver less subways. Then you cancel an important security feature, because the driver prevents the vast majority of deadly accidents. It is simply no true that if someone falls down from a platform he is almost dead. It has to be a very tragic timing to lead to a lethal outcome. Anyway, without a driver, you have to compensate with other safety measures and then the doors pay off.

That is also exactly why also brand new stations in Vienna where every vehicle has a driver don't feature such doors. I am not an expert after all, so that confirms my layman opinion.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 03:34 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
That is also exactly why also brand new stations in Vienna where every vehicle has a driver don't feature such doors. I am not an expert after all, so that confirms my layman opinion.
The signlaling technology needed for PSDs is more line- or system-related than station-related.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 01:26 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
. Unless the metro system wants to introduce driver less subways.
The Brussels screendoors are installed because of - and as a part of the driverless metro. It is not the otherway round.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #128
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The Brussels screendoors are installed because of - and as a part of the driverless metro. It is not the otherway round.
Ok, I promise to get back on topic again, which is the Brussels Metro.

Your argument is also why I think that in Brussels installing screendoors makes sense.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 03:01 PM   #129
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Time to bump this thread with a few vids I found:











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Old February 25th, 2012, 03:14 PM   #130
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Pre-metro, underground tramways and tramways





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Old February 25th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #131
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Old February 26th, 2012, 05:16 AM   #132
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Perhaps they could just engineer their metro from the start to be safer for passengers, ie lower floor heights like on the DC metro, they have no platform doors, but they don't have as many injuries because instead of falling into a pit like NYC subway its more like falling into a bucket, and it is much easier to get out of a bucket than a pit
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Old February 26th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Sounds like a fairly cheap and efficient strategy. Do you know of any subway having implemented it?
Taipei Metro uses sensors that are placed every 10 cm-20 cm (average 1 foot) from each other at station gaps/edges.

Anyways, the costs of platform doors and gates have decreased to relatively lower pricing levels now compared to years ago (i.e. brought about by advancements in technology, economies of scale, etc.).

These things are a worthy investment imho.

Also, I want to point out that you DO NOT need trains to be driverless in order to justify the need for PSDs or platform gates.

There are train systems like those in Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. that have trains that are manned by human drivers............and yet the stations have these platform doors and gates

In short, a train station(s) can have platform doors and/or gates regardless if the train has a driver or if train is driverless.

Hope that info helps
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:58 PM   #134
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkOET...2&feature=plcp

Here is a short video I took of the trams in Brussels.

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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:31 PM   #135
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Old September 20th, 2013, 11:54 AM   #136
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Bonjour,
Un ami a pensé que cet article de RTL.be iPhone pourrait vous intéresser :

RTL info > Belgique > Politique

La Stib ne peut pas étendre ses lignes vers la Flandre


20 septembre 2013 07:17

La société flamande de transports en commun De Lijn souhaite développer quatre lignes de tram entrant dans la capitale, mais certains administrateurs de la société bruxelloise de transports en commun Stib y mettent leur veto car la convention prévue ne prévoit pas la possibilité, à l'inverse, d'étendre des lignes de la Stib vers le Brabant flamand, peut-on lire vendredi dans La Capitale.
La société De Lijn veut développer quatre lignes de tram dans le cadre de son plan "Brabantnet", lignes qui traverseront ou arriveront à Bruxelles. Le conseil d'administration de la Stib devait approuver, lors de sa dernière réunion, une convention prévoyant que la Stib et De Lijn collaboreront pour réaliser ces quatre lignes, qui devraient être opérationnelles en 2025. Mais plusieurs administrateurs de la Stib estiment que cet accord n'est pas équilibré car la Stib n'en tirerait aucun avantage et ne pourrait pas, en réciprocité, étendre certaines de ses lignes vers le Brabant flamand. (Belga)

Retrouver plus d'infos sur RTL.be


Partagé depuis l'application RTL.be iPhone disponible sur l'AppStore
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Old September 21st, 2013, 02:33 AM   #137
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Rough translation: the De Lijn public transportation company wants to build 4 tram lines going into Bruxelles territory, but they don't want to allow STIB to run services into their territory ,so they are refusing it.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 03:34 AM   #138
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Why don't they build lines that are shared by both companies like bus lines are shared?
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:30 AM   #139
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Les lignes de tram de lijn dans Bruxelles emprunteraient les tracés de la stib si nécessaire. Par contre la stib n'a jamais pu et ne peut toujours pas prolonger le 4 jusque ruisbroek par exemple. Se qui est vraiment dommageable pour les riverains...
Donc aujourd'hui la région bruxelloise demande des compensations pour accorder à de lijn de pénétrer en tram dans bxl.
Personnellement je trouve ridicule cette volonté de de lijn de vouloir circuler en tram dans bxl. Cela donnerait une image désaccordée aux transports dans Bxl.
Et je trouve la situation à Rogier épouvantable! C'est Un embouteillage perpétuel de bus de lijn vides qui bloque les bruxellois!

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Old September 21st, 2013, 09:08 PM   #140
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Bien que je parle français très bien et je le comprends sans problème, ici, c'est une section internationale, alors tout le monde est invité à parler anglais.

Although I speak and understand French with no problem, this is an international section, so please, you are supposed to speak English.
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