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Old April 12th, 2006, 09:04 PM   #81
JUXTAPOL
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You just have to ignore these people, because they don't have a clue, they will believe what they want to believe is the cause of their grievance, and she obviously has something against Liverpool. Why doesn't she complain to her own council, who she pays council tax to, (or maybe she doesnt pay anything). The tunnel equally costs Liverpool tax payers money to run and maintain, and Liverpool residents have to pay the same tolls for using the tunnel.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 09:14 PM   #82
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Her sheer ignorance forced me to send a reply.

Quote:
In reply to Mrs Anne Jackson of Heswall regarding the tunnel tolls, I strongly suggest that the lady in question gets her facts straight before complaining about something that doesn't happen. In her letter, Mrs Jackson complains that the tunnel toll revenue is spent on non-transport related events such as festivals in the city borough at the expense of poor old Wirral which has streets to be cleaned, apparently. I would like to point out to Mrs Jackson that the tunnels are maintained by Merseytravel and it is they who obtain the toll fees. This is spent on transport infrastructure throughout the whole metropolitan area, which includes Wirral, incidentally. Merseytravel's remit does not include festivals or street maintenance, so I'm afraid Merseytravel will not be employing street cleaners for Wirral. I suggest that Mrs Jackson contacts Wirral Council if she has issues over the cleanliness of Wirral streets, as it is, after all, their responsibility, not Merseytravel's.
Your from the Wirral aren't you Juxt? Why not send a letter to remind everyone that not everyone who lives there is as dim as Mrs Jackson appears to be.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 09:52 PM   #83
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You just know she puts "Heswall, Cheshire" on all her letters...
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Old April 12th, 2006, 10:04 PM   #84
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Quote:
Your from the Wirral aren't you Juxt?
How dare you insult me like that, i'm 100% pure, finest quatity Liverpool i'll have you know.

quatity....


Mrs Anne (Hyacinth Bucket) Jackson, is probably jealous of the regeneration and growth and increasing dynamism and success of Liverpool. I'm not having a go at the Wirral, as I want to see that side do as well also, and succeed in it's projects such as the New Brighton development, because this will benefit both sides of the River.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 10:12 PM   #85
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Yapachoo is from Wirral, as is Mersey Orange, but I ain't seen either on here recently. We need some Wirral people to counteract these small minded sobs who don't have a clue about anything.
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Old April 12th, 2006, 10:52 PM   #86
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At the end of the day it says "Liverpool - European Capital of Culture."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth
Where has this stupid woman got the idea that the tunnel tolls fund festivals such as Capital of Culture from? The tunnels are run by Merseytravel and have **** all to do with anything else!
Correct me if I`m wrong and I could be but I read only recently (during the `Governments "Merseytram" fiasco`) that £57m went into not out off the Wirrals coffers due to the `Mersey Tunnels.`

Shut the `tunnels` down for three months and see how much the Wirral looses and how much Liverpool gains.

Sadly I`ve had this arguement for too many years - even before the post code wars.

ie, All the people `from outside(?)` who make their living in Liverpool or use its facilities but wish to live in splendid (post code) isolation.

At the end of the day it says "Liverpool - European Capital of Culture."
__________________
Business & leisure...
Projected investment of £Bns+
www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk
http://www.wirralwaters.com/
1,000s of maitime companies employ 10s of 1,000s of staff with an annual turnover of £2.5bns+ / 15% of the Merseyside economy. The Super Port of Liverpool is expanding & with 150,000 ship movements a year, the River Mersey is the UK’s 3rd busiest estuary.
http://www.shipais.com/index.php
The Merseyrail network runs 700 services a day, the most intense of any in the UK apart from London Underground.
http://visitliverpool.com/

Last edited by Pietari; April 12th, 2006 at 11:10 PM.
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Old April 13th, 2006, 01:22 PM   #87
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I used to work for Merseytravel when the first plans for the Merseytram network were put out.

Everyday i'd (tounge in cheek of course) get the piss taken out of me from scousers at Hatton Gardens claiming people were coming from the Wirral "taking all our jobs!" (I was born in Liverpool and lived there till we moved over the water when I was 10 BTW).

I'd always reply "Yeah but I bet you don't mind our tunnel fare going on your nice new trams eh!?"

That almost a decade ago now.


Fact of the matter is the majority of the traffic is people from Wallasey & Birkenhead going to work....generating services and income to the city. On weekends the majority of the traffic is the thousands upon thousands of shoppers from the Wirral who sidestep their own shopping centres to put money into Liverpool stores.

It's not the other way round.

The tunnel is mainly used by Wirral people and as a result the majority of the funds raised should be used to reduce the debt the tunnels are STILL in and eventually bring about a free tunnel service....to stop an unfair "tax" on Wirral shopers and business people, AND to benefit the service and retail ecconomy of Liverpool.
The fees are a tax on merseysides economic success.

Now it has been put on the record by Mr Dowd of Merseytravel that if they can't come up with the funding for Merseytram they will cut into Tunnel fares to pay towards it.

How is this beneficial to people living in Wallasey, Birkenhead, West Kirby....etc???
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Old April 13th, 2006, 01:31 PM   #88
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Further to that, there hasn't been a rail link to poulton/seacombe/egromont ferry since the 1930's....ironically the route was then used as the approach for the kingsway tunnel!

Now that the ill concieved Merseytram fiasco is dead and burried will the money be plowed into a route connecting this massively populated working class area into the Wirral line....or will as I expect, they try and raise more capital from raising the tunnel fee AGAIN?
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Old April 13th, 2006, 01:40 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUXTAPOL
The tunnel equally costs Liverpool tax payers money to run and maintain, and Liverpool residents have to pay the same tolls for using the tunnel.
Rubbish!

I can't remember a link to the exact source but I remember both Wirral Globe AND Merseytravel polls showed that the majority of the traffic was from the Wirral INTO Liverpool. It was something like 80% of the traffic being Wirralians.

The health & saftey and the maintenance of the tunnel is payed for out of the tunnel fee, which if 80% of it is being payed from people from one borough, is clearly not fair.

....and lets be fair Wirral people plow a lot of money into the Liverpool economy, so scousers should be happy about this. I know I am.

Most Wirral people would not mind if the money was used to pay off the tunnels debts....remember we were promised that all debts would be paid off and eventually the tunnel would be free to use when it was built in the 70's.

What people object to is the idea of Wirral people paying for tram routes in Liverpool. As I say they won't build them in Birkenhead or re-connect Seacombe/Poulton's trains (highest populated part of Wirral).
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Old April 13th, 2006, 01:42 PM   #90
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Maybe this is the answer.

Copied post by Blabber on another thread.


Government considers city region compulsion

Planning Resource - 13 April 2006

Ministers are considering using the upcoming local government white paper to make councils work together in return for financial incentives.

A senior Office of the Deputy Prime Minister source has told said ministers would rather use "a carrot than a stick approach" to city regions.

However, he warned that legislation coupled with financial incentives may be use to "compel" local authorities to collaborate.

And the source revealed that ministers are still considering the London-style city regional mayoral model despite a cool reaction in England's major provincial capitals to the idea.

The ODPM source told Regeneration & Renewal: "There's a growing recognition that local authorities do better working together than they do individually.

"Ministers would rather use a carrot than a stick approach... [but] they could legislate to compel local authorities to work together. Legislation could be another option as well as financial incentives. That would be the stick approach.

"One question is how can you make changes without fiddling with boundaries – although that hasn't been ruled out."

The source said that the white paper is likely to contain
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Old April 13th, 2006, 01:50 PM   #91
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Joking apart, the Mersey Tunnel Users Association would be interested in this debate.
IMHO it deserves it's own thread
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Old April 13th, 2006, 01:51 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evertonian
I used to work for Merseytravel when the first plans for the Merseytram network were put out.

Everyday i'd (tounge in cheek of course) get the piss taken out of me from scousers at Hatton Gardens claiming people were coming from the Wirral "taking all our jobs!" (I was born in Liverpool and lived there till we moved over the water when I was 10 BTW).

I'd always reply "Yeah but I bet you don't mind our tunnel fare going on your nice new trams eh!?"

That almost a decade ago now.


Fact of the matter is the majority of the traffic is people from Wallasey & Birkenhead going to work....generating services and income to the city. On weekends the majority of the traffic is the thousands upon thousands of shoppers from the Wirral who sidestep their own shopping centres to put money into Liverpool stores.

It's not the other way round.

The tunnel is mainly used by Wirral people and as a result the majority of the funds raised should be used to reduce the debt the tunnels are STILL in and eventually bring about a free tunnel service....to stop an unfair "tax" on Wirral shopers and business people, AND to benefit the service and retail ecconomy of Liverpool.
The fees are a tax on merseysides economic success.

Now it has been put on the record by Mr Dowd of Merseytravel that if they can't come up with the funding for Merseytram they will cut into Tunnel fares to pay towards it.

How is this beneficial to people living in Wallasey, Birkenhead, West Kirby....etc???
What you're forgetting is the vast majority of people of sefton ,knowsley and st helens never use the tunnels but have to contribute to them.AS far as shopping is concerned,it used to be the case that liverpool was the main shopping destination for the wirral, not any more.Most peolple on the wirral shop there or in chester or Cheshire oaks.In fact, alot of people from liverpool shop in Chester and cheshire oaks and even in Birkenhead.
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Old April 13th, 2006, 01:56 PM   #93
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I'd actually like to see Wirral get it's own MPTE and **** off Merseytravel once and for all. With the exception of Conway Park they've done nothing for the Wirral in decades.

The council could then declare the tunnel approach road as a free road and remove the toll booths from the Wirral side....if Merseytravel then insisted on continuing with keeping and constantly raising the tunnel fee....fine!

They would have to build the toll booths on the Liverpool side, which would be an absolute disaster for them. They would be forced to use moneys from their budget to pay off the tunnel debts and make the road free.

It would, most deffinately, open up the eyes of my fellow scousers, who don't realise that there is this ridiculous £2.60 charge to enter and leave the city. When the evidence is there for them to see in tailbacks through the congested city going right back to the tunnel there might be more impetous to pay off the debt and get rid of the toll.


For the newly formed "WPTE" the power to issue their own tenders and maintain their own stations out of tax payers money....tax payers money NOT being diverted to ill concived tram plans....could be spent on new lines to Seacombe, connecting the docks and dock road business parks to a new Birkenhead loop line and better connections from west wirral to the south and east.
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Old April 13th, 2006, 02:08 PM   #94
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Quote:
What you're forgetting is the vast majority of people of sefton ,knowsley and st helens never use the tunnels but have to contribute to them.
As a major trading route into their boroughs and the knock on effect of an ecconomically viable Liverpool....so they should.

I know many people from the west of merseyside travel to St Helens, Knowsley, etc to work, visit and spend money and this brings in revenue for them.

I know of NOBODY from St Helens or knowsley who thinks "oh I might go and spend some time on the Wirral"....it just doesn't happen!


Quote:
AS far as shopping is concerned,it used to be the case that liverpool was the main shopping destination for the wirral, not any more.Most peolple on the wirral shop there or in chester or Cheshire oaks.In fact, alot of people from liverpool shop in Chester and cheshire oaks and even in Birkenhead.
In actual fact studies have been done on the shopping habits of local people and have found that the majority of them do their main shopping....especially the christmas shop in Liverpool. There was a massive stink about it in the Wirral Globe about how people were not showing loyalty to local businesses.

The vast majority of people I know who will say "oh i'm popping over to town" are talking about Liverpool not Birkenhead and the VAST majority of people from the Wirral going to another destination to shop other than say Birkenhead will go to Liverpool.

Not everyone has a car to get to south Wirral/Chester and it only takes 20 mins to get over the water on PT.



All of this is accademic since the maintenence of the tunnels comes directly out of the tunnel fee, which some 80% of which is payed for by Wirral people.

If Liverpool people object to paying into the MPTE then maybe they should form their own PTE as i've suggested the Wirral do....but complaining about incoming trade seems a bit daft to me. Would they also object to paying towards building the new mersey bridges and new approach roads???

No 'cos it brings business in and regenerates the city.

Now imagine you're a Geordie businessman and someone come to you with a proposal to inflict a £2.60 charge on anyone coming into the city!

Laughable!
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Old April 13th, 2006, 02:17 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evertonian
I'd actually like to see Wirral get it's own MPTE and **** off Merseytravel once and for all. With the exception of Conway Park they've done nothing for the Wirral in decades.
The Wirral has a comprehensive number of stations. Any money has to be spent on the Liverpool side, as that is where the need is.

Splitting the rail network on Merseyside is ludicrous - like splitting up the tube again.
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Old April 13th, 2006, 02:21 PM   #96
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I don't know what surveys you'e quoting, but why do you think the PDSA is being built. Liverpool has slipped from 4th largest shopping destination in the 1970's to about 12th now.People from the Wirral might come to Liverpool to shop,but it's certainly not the main destination, Chester would be ahead of Liverpool.As i said,people from Liverpool shop on the Wirral,so there's no net gain to Liverpool. As far as the tunnels are concerned,if there weren't letters in the Daily Post every week from people from the Wirral(there's another today) saying there not from Merseyside they're from Cheshire, then peolple would be a bit more sympathetic.
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Old April 13th, 2006, 02:28 PM   #97
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Maybe if we had one council and payed one rate of council tax then all this nonsense would end.
The arguement that people living just beyond Liverpools boundaries in Sefton or Knowsley are not somehow from Liverpool and therefore shouldn't have to contribute to the tunnels is ridiculous.
That notion also pertains to the Wirral.
For goodness sake we are all part of one urban area,why must we be divided?
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Old April 13th, 2006, 02:31 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-MK
The Wirral has a comprehensive number of stations. Any money has to be spent on the Liverpool side, as that is where the need is.

Splitting the rail network on Merseyside is ludicrous - like splitting up the tube again.

I've just illustrated the fact that tens of thousands of people are stuck 5-10 miles away from the Wirral line services. An incredibly highly densely populated area. We are talking about the whole of the Seacombe/Poulton/Egremont areas being cut off from it....when it had a railway stop there for almost a century up until electrification.

Sorry to disagree with you but the Wirral certainly does not have a comprehensive number of stations. Unless you're one of these people that thinks the Wirral should be glad for what it's got and is some backwards hick town with no need for improvements.


At the same time as this is the case MPTE tried to run a tramline along a route already served well by public transport, couldn't come up with the money and wanted to take it out of tunnel fees!!!

WTF!
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Old April 13th, 2006, 02:44 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the golden vision
I don't know what surveys you'e quoting, but why do you think the PDSA is being built
Because they're getting vast amounts of public land and streets given to them to own exclusively.....for dirt cheap and with tax breaks.

It's alarming how they've sold of what was once public highways and footpaths to a priovate company without consulting the public. I hear they'll even have their own 'sheriffs'.

Shocking.

Quote:
People from the Wirral might come to Liverpool to shop,but it's certainly not the main destination, Chester would be ahead of Liverpool.
Why do you think this!? Studies have shown that this isn't the case. Why Chester???

Quote:
As i said,people from Liverpool shop on the Wirral,so there's no net gain to Liverpool.
Very few people form Liverpool come over to the Wirral to shop, though I accept that some do. Theres massive net gains from the fact that over 80% of tunnel users spend the majority of their day in Liverpool shopping, working or doing business, to suggest otherwise is akin to the daft arguements put forward that theres no gain in having LFC & EFC in the city.

I really don't know where you get this idea that people go to Chester and Cheshire Oaks to shop over liverpool. Assuming that people have cars and travel completely out of their way to shop when Liverpool is only 20mins away....why do polls consitently show that most Wirral people do their shopping in Liverpool?

Quote:
As far as the tunnels are concerned,if there weren't letters in the Daily Post every week from people from the Wirral(there's another today) saying there not from Merseyside they're from Cheshire, then peolple would be a bit more sympathetic.
People like that woman are ******* idiots make no mistake. MPTE money goes on MPTE projects and does not finance Capital of Culture in any way....obviously.

BUT! Why should people (wherever they're from) pay tunnel fees? Especially when Dowd has gone on record as saying he will specifically exploit tunnel fees to pay for future tram projects, if government funding is not given.

Again....how does anyone form the Wirral benefit from a line to Kirkby which is already served by a perfectly decent integrated transport policy?

No seems able or willing to answer that key question.
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Old April 13th, 2006, 02:48 PM   #100
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My personal experiences (family on the wirral) is that most youngsters (<25) go to Liverpool. Married families go to Chester or Cheshire Oaks (even Manc and Trafford Centre which can be reached by the M53/56) and the elderly mainly shop in the local shopping areas locally (notably Birkenhead with its market), Wallasey and the smaller centres of Heswall, WKirkby, Bebington and Neston. Its also of note that there are also retail parks in and around the wirral, Bromborough comes to mind.
The tunnel fees is an issue in shopping habits of wirralians and many people go on the train when they do go, limiting the amount they can purchase.
Assumptions that taking your car charge you twice are spot on. When I still lived over there I tended to do it occasionally despite the fact that I like Liverpool.
Maybe Grosvenor and a like should put some pressure on the Merseytravel to look into the tunnel toll issue.
I know some wirralians who say it is as good to go to Manc as it is to cross the river.
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