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Old April 14th, 2006, 09:49 PM   #121
the golden vision
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Exactly,like the London tunnels,no tolls there. Maintenance free apparently.
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Old April 14th, 2006, 09:52 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth
Evertonian, there's no such thing as a free road. In your scenario, only Wirral ratepayers would pay for the tunnel. Residents of the city borough, Knowsley and the rest would be able to use the tunnels for free. Would you not mind that.
Since Merseytravel flat out refuse to even discuss paying off the debt, despite Merseytunnels being in surplus since 1992....the power willl have to be taken from them. They've repeatedly said they want tunnel tolls to continue even if the debts were payed off.

If LCC joined WBC in taking control and through raising of taxes paid off the debts over a few years, that would be brilliant.

Quote:
A Wirral MPTE would not really help in the continuity of the city. Who'd run Merseyrail for example?
Quite simple, the Wirral PTE would run the Wirral line connecting to Liverpool. Theres no problem with this whatsoever, it works fine connecting Merseyrail trains to the Chester line who are run by the Cheshire PTE.

Quote:
Yes, it wouldn't be spending any money on Kirkby but it'd have a fraction of the budget of a city-wide MPTE.
Local taxes and council taxes that currently go to MPTE would go directly to a Wirral PTE. Since the average Wirral household income is higher than that of inner city Liverpool and earnings are higher, this would actually mean MORE money being spent on the Wirral line.

As i've said, a WPTE couldn't possibly spend LESS money on the Wirral line than Merseytravel do....who haven't done anything of note since Conway Park.

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you'd have to pay for them at the end of the day, and virtually everyone moans about taxes don't they
Studies have shown that when people are asked to subvert extra funds to specific public transport or civic projects and spending extra taxes....as long as they can see an outcome....they are willing to pay a little extra.

This has been seen in California and in Boston, where their tunnelling superhighway through the city, which has cost billions of extra tax has been accepted.

In any event with the tunnels, we are talking about paying the price of a pint of beer, per head, per YEAR....less than people currently have to pay for ONE return visit to town, in order to gradually pay off the tunnel debts and make it a free road. I think people would go for that.

I'd certainly rather pay an extra couple of quid a year in tax to maintain it than £2.60 a DAY!!!

Mainstream centre ground politics is coming round to the fact that the general public is coming round to understanding that if you want quality services you have to pay for them.

This is why current tory policy under Cameron is to downplay tax cuts and maintain current spending commitments. They realise it's a big reason why they lost the last few elections because people realise that underinvestment is what got the country in the mess it was in in the 80's.

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Debt or no debt, the tunnels still need maintaining, more so than any other road, so they'll never be free, nothing ever is.
Once the tunnel becomes a normal road....a free thoroughfare and part of the normal highways again, this will come out of the government expendature.

Even if a PTE insisted on remaining in charge of it for security and maintanence reasons the cost to the local taxpayer would be virtually nothing in comparison to NOT having to pay £2.60 per trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTUA
The Tunnels are now spending a massive amount on capital works and charging it directly against Tolls. The reason given for this spending is safety. But the Eurotest 2002 report rated the Wallasey Tunnel as the safest tunnel of those tested in Britain, and the Birkenhead Tunnel was 3rd safest
Disgraceful!
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Old April 14th, 2006, 10:02 PM   #123
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....and even more disgracefull!

Quote:
Merseytravel must have spent a lot of time and money getting the Mersey Tunnels Bill through Parliament. Though when asked in the Lords committee, they said that they didn't know how much.
That was 2 years ago, but Merseytravel got a mention and quote from their boss in this morning's Times for their use of a law firm to lobby for them on the Bill. What the Times does not mention is that all this was paid for out of Tunnels tolls. In effect the condemned had to pay for the bullet.
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Old April 14th, 2006, 10:21 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Sebo
the tunnels should be designated as part of the national highways system and so would be 'free' of tolls anyway.
Both tunnels would have to have trunk road classification for central government to foot 100% of the maintenance bill. Non-trunk A-roads get 50% of the bill payed for by the government and B-roads 30%. The Wallasey Tunnel is pretty much a trunk route as it's plugged into the trunk road system., so it'd have a chance. You'd never get the Birkenhead tunnel classed as trunk. Maybe a non-trunk A-road at best. Regardless, I can't see the government volunteering to take over running the tunnels. I think they'll always be payed for locally, tolls or no tolls.
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Old April 14th, 2006, 10:22 PM   #125
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Sorry Evertonian, but your proposal is based on the notion that Wirral gets hard done by has some basis in fact.. it doesn't. I am no fan of the 'brother'ly solidarity of merseytravel, but Wirral has had as much, if not more, than any other area outside the city centre, which has been pointed out is the hub, terminus and heaart of the whole metropolis... including the Left Bank.

Until the South Liverpool interchange thingy went ahead, how much have Merseytralel spent in suburban 'Liverpool'(LCC land)... which in effect that is all wirral is?
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Old April 14th, 2006, 10:26 PM   #126
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I'm begining to feel that people power is irrelevant to the politicians in charge. Whether it be this issue, ot any other issue.

English Heritage, MPTE, LCC, WBC, the government. Doesn't seem to matter what people want.

What these people do listen to is big business. I'm sure if the CBI and people like Grovsenor demanded the tunnel fees be removed it would be done within months.

As i've argued before, perhaps Grovesnor should hold back the £10mill in private investment he offered towards the Tram Link, demanding that the tunnels be free.
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Old April 14th, 2006, 10:38 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Sebo
Sorry Evertonian, but your proposal is based on the notion that Wirral gets hard done by has some basis in fact.. it doesn't. I am no fan of the 'brother'ly solidarity of merseytravel, but Wirral has had as much, if not more, than any other area outside the city centre, which has been pointed out is the hub, terminus and heaart of the whole metropolis... including the Left Bank.

Until the South Liverpool interchange thingy went ahead, how much have Merseytralel spent in suburban 'Liverpool'(LCC land)... which in effect that is all wirral is?

I don't want to turn this into a Liverpool V's Wirral thing because in an ideal world MPTE would serve each borough equally....perhaps concentrating more on downtown Liverpool as the major entrance to the city.

I fully support the proposed developments of Lime St, James St renovation and Central Station renovation as the knock on effect for a successfull City should make life better for the surrounding boroughs.

HOWEVER!!! As i've repeatedly said, apart from Conway Park (the last major works done on the Wirral Line) there has been virtually no investment in Wirral services by Merseytravel. In fact a quick gander through the Wirral Globe letters page each month will show you how services are being lost....particularly bus services.

Liverpool has had Queens square, Paradise St terminals built, £50mill+ on planning for the ill concieved tram effort and will get a new ferry terminal, the entire loop line and Lime St gateway refurbs/rebuilds.

All of this should rightly happen and I am delighted to see it being put forward. My only arguement is the transfer of tunnel funds to pay for the trams and possibly other future hairbrain schemes.

Lets also see a bit of investment in Wirral please, after all when the golf open comes round (and there is talk of it returning more regularly) and when the New Brighton scheme happens, they will be a major tourist assets that will ALSO benefit wider Merseyside.


I say all of this as someone from Liverpool, living on the Wirral who simply wants to see the end to a tax that is stiffling trade, tourism and business. I want Liverpool AND Wirral to be a brilliant place to grow up for our kids.
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Old April 14th, 2006, 11:01 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evertonian
Liverpool has had Queens square, Paradise St terminals built, £50mill+ on planning for the ill concieved tram effort and will get a new ferry terminal, the entire loop line and Lime St gateway refurbs/rebuilds.
Queen Square's a major downtown transport hub. Birkenhead's bus station ain't to shabby. It's got automatic platform screen doors to boot. It's getting another refurb soon.
Paradise Street - ditto
The tram scheme sank so no one benefited.
Let's hope the ferry terminal is as good as Seacombe's eh?
The loop line is a stretch of Wirral Line, Like the road tunnels, it's most used by Wirral commuters.

You're basically comparing Liverpool's downtown infrastructure to what is effectively the city's western suburbs. I could just as easily as what the **** Merseytravel have done for the eastern suburbs such as here in West Derby, Norris Green, Crocky. Where's ourpart of the Merseyrail network? Where's our funky bus terminuses with automatic platform screen doors? West Derby wan't going to benefit from the trams either. Should my area expect an equal amount of investment as the downtown area or are we not entitled to that just because we're in the same council area as downtown?

Last edited by Gareth; April 14th, 2006 at 11:16 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2006, 11:14 PM   #129
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I really do agree with you on that point mate don't get me wrong, you are spot on. Merseytravel's done **** all for West Derby.

With respect, the difference, is that people from West Derby don't have to spend £2.60 travelling into downtown....per trip.

If Wallasey is virtually a suburb of Liverpool as you propose (and I suppose there is some reality in that in a way) why should it pay this tax to travel to it's hub???

Assuming one day we become one big Liverpool Bay Area......

Quote:
The Parliamentary Commissioners have proposed that most of Wallasey is joined with part of Liverpool. Will it be the only constituency in England where the MP will have to pay a toll to get from one half of their constituency to the other?


To be honest I find it baffling that anyone could argue against the MTUA position that the tunnels should be free (and shouldn't pay towards trams/ferries)....it hurts Liverpool greatly to have this tax on incoming trade and business.
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Old April 14th, 2006, 11:22 PM   #130
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Spot on!

You see that's the way to argue against the tolls. Yes, Wallasey is pretty much a suburb of Liverpool and it's residents do have to pay a toll to get to their downtown. That's the key reason to abolish the tolls. It's when people start the old arguement that right bankers are taking the piss and how Merseytravel spends tons in the city council area, as well as plain falsehoods like what that stupid lady said in the Echo about the tolls paying for Capital of Culture celebrations that actually undermine the cause. The more the Wirral is seen as an extension of Liverpool, the more ludicrous the existence of teh tolls appears.
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Old April 15th, 2006, 03:05 AM   #131
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I thought the tunnels were privately owned. Isn't that why there are tolls in the first place? Then assuming the income all goes to CoC is bullshit.
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Old April 15th, 2006, 01:03 PM   #132
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As I've said so many times.. and it is especially pertenent to nobs like that woman... what is wirral? The 'posh' part of Liverpool or the shithole of Cheshire?

The Liverpool context is vital for those twats to maintain their sense of social superiority!
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Old April 20th, 2006, 01:24 PM   #133
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Arrow Ellesmere Port plant to build new Astravan .....

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0...name_page.html

Ellesmere Port plant to build new Astravan Apr 20 2006

Liverpool Echo

ELLESMERE Port's Vauxhall plant is to build the new Astravan.

Production of the old version of the van was moved to Poland in 2004 but bosses confirmed today that production of the new version will begin imminently.

They hope to sell up to 10,000 models a year in the UK.

A Vauxhall spokesman said: "It is great to see the return of the Astravan to Ellesmere Port, which we hope will take a strong grip on the UK van market when launched later this year."

The decision to build the new van in the UK is in contrast to French-owned Peugeot's decision this week to close its Coventry car plant and switch production to a cheaper manufacturing site in Poland.

The Astravan is perceived as a UK model and Vauxhall says it prefers to build a product close to where it is sold.

The van, based on the new Astra estate model, will be officially launched at the Commercial Van Show in Birmingham next week.

The first models could be in car showrooms by the autumn.
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Business & leisure...
Projected investment of £Bns+
www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk
http://www.wirralwaters.com/
1,000s of maitime companies employ 10s of 1,000s of staff with an annual turnover of £2.5bns+ / 15% of the Merseyside economy. The Super Port of Liverpool is expanding & with 150,000 ship movements a year, the River Mersey is the UK’s 3rd busiest estuary.
http://www.shipais.com/index.php
The Merseyrail network runs 700 services a day, the most intense of any in the UK apart from London Underground.
http://visitliverpool.com/
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Old April 20th, 2006, 06:39 PM   #134
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Good news on the Astravan, what with the midlands losing another car factory. This region must be one of the biggest for car production what with Vauxhall, Jaguar/Landrover and the engine factory's.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 02:15 PM   #135
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Proms will get facelift May 3 2006

A MAJOR refurbishment of some of Wiral's best-loved stretches of promenade gets under way next month.

An £85,000 facelift will be given to three kilometres of coastline, stretching from West Kirby to Hoylake.

Promenade railings and shelters along South Parade, North Parade and Meols Parade have been earmarked for upgrading.

Director of Technical Services at Wirral Council, David Green said: "West Kirby and Hoylake promenades offer some of the most spectacular lookout points along the NW coastline.

"With thousands of visitors descending upon Hoylake this summer to watch The Open at Royal Liverpool, it's a certainty that many will take the opportunity to explore the neighbouring area.

The scheme is being funded as part of Wirral Council's annual coastal maintenance programme.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 02:15 PM   #136
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Warships museum 'could be saved' May 3 2006

THERE was new hope for Wirral's warship museum today after the council revealed it is in talks with a possible new owner.

As preparations were being made this morning to move the German U-Boat which has been a key part of the Warships Preservation Trust attraction in Birkenhead, negotiations were still underway.

The U-boat is the final piece of Wirral's historic warships collection to be moved after the company which managed it went into liquidation.

But even as the U-boat was being prepared to be lifted away, senior council officials said there was new hope the ships could remain in Wirral.

This is after Wirral council offered £50,000 to bail out the Trust, while the Northwest Development Agency is expected to contribute £100,000.


Head of housing and regeneration David Bell said the council had been in talks with private companies and the government who they hope will give them the final £150,000 needed to keep the ships.


The U534 submarine was one of the last U-boats to be sunk by the allies in World War II in 1945 and was raised from the sea bed in 1993.


The Mersey Docks and Harbour company is storing the ships at present but says it has no idea what the future holds.
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Old May 7th, 2006, 11:35 AM   #137
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anyone heard the rumours that gerry white and co at reddington are selling the cammell laird land they acquired only two years ago or so. apparently, inevitably, the planners laughed their plans for resi islands (erm, silty port, anyone) and snow domes out of town and they've given up. i hope.
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Old May 7th, 2006, 11:57 AM   #138
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Wink Nothing wrong will having silly ideas - some of them pay off.

Nothing wrong will having silly ideas - some of them pay off.

Nevertheless a pity that `Birkenhead` seems to be missing the boat yet again.

The Wirral needs to do some very serious soul searching as to where it sees its future and how it`s going to get there.
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Business & leisure...
Projected investment of £Bns+
www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk
http://www.wirralwaters.com/
1,000s of maitime companies employ 10s of 1,000s of staff with an annual turnover of £2.5bns+ / 15% of the Merseyside economy. The Super Port of Liverpool is expanding & with 150,000 ship movements a year, the River Mersey is the UK’s 3rd busiest estuary.
http://www.shipais.com/index.php
The Merseyrail network runs 700 services a day, the most intense of any in the UK apart from London Underground.
http://visitliverpool.com/

Last edited by Pietari; May 9th, 2006 at 12:45 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2006, 12:49 PM   #139
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Time for the Wirral to get off the fence .....

Isn`t it about time that the Wirral got off the fence once and for all and decided whether or not in went back into Cheshire or was a part of the Liverpool economy.

And act accordingly because at the moment it is the weakest link!

Get on board or leave.
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Business & leisure...
Projected investment of £Bns+
www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk
http://www.wirralwaters.com/
1,000s of maitime companies employ 10s of 1,000s of staff with an annual turnover of £2.5bns+ / 15% of the Merseyside economy. The Super Port of Liverpool is expanding & with 150,000 ship movements a year, the River Mersey is the UK’s 3rd busiest estuary.
http://www.shipais.com/index.php
The Merseyrail network runs 700 services a day, the most intense of any in the UK apart from London Underground.
http://visitliverpool.com/
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Old May 9th, 2006, 01:12 PM   #140
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So say all of us.

If they are to go then Merseytravel should up fares/fees to the going market rate on Merseyrail, bus and tunnels and that way I could get a reduction in my council tax rate for services to that part of the world I NEVER travel to!
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Isnt it time they closed this white Elephant and stop wasting money
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