Bradford City Centre Regeneration

[Awayo]

Liverpool is around twice the size of Leeds and its population is no longer shrinking. Yes, Leeds is more prosperous on the whole and has a higher economic output per head however.

[MarkJF]

Originally Posted by Awayo

Liverpool is around twice the size of Leeds and its population is no longer shrinking.

Where on earth did you read that?

[MarkJF]

Originally Posted by yorkshiredude

Amongst issues of identity and local pride, I'd say mainly because the transport connections aren't there. There might not be a huge amount of difference in Leeds and Bradford links from somewhere like Saltaire, but what about somewhere like Buttershaw, or Holme Wood? How would this be overcome, without potentially making the deprived areas more deprived?

Tbh, I can't imagine what local pride Bradfordians under 25 have? I take your point about Buttershaw & Holme Wood but I can name worse estates in Leeds right now..........

Originally Posted by yorkshiredude

Interesting this, I'm not old enough to remember central Bradford in the 1980s. What I've heard from Bradford's Bouncing Back (after reading a book by the man who in charge of the campaign, so perhaps one sided) is that the initative helped promote Bradford more positively, as it had a very poor reputation there. I hear a lot of people saying the nightlife in Bradford isn't what it was and the shopping isn't either and the Odeon used to be there etc? But what about Little Germany, or the area around City Hall compared to 1986? My impression is that Bradford was on an ascent from the late 1980s and into the 1990s, which was brought to a halt by the damage of the riots and the regeneration failures in the city centre.

But did it attract any significant private investment or employment? I don't think Bradford was on an ascent in the late 80's and early 90's, they were great aspirational times and the first time that I became aware of people saying the lived or worked in Leeds, when in fact, they were in Bradford. No, it's been a linear decline since I started work, that was in 1978. The riots accelerated the decline and Bradford's negative national image was enhanced greatly, I don't know whether that can ever be reversed.

But, there is a chance, a slim one, but it's there. Fabulous victorian architecture, centrally located and a beautiful north side. I was in Barcelona last week, I used to visit regularly in the late 80's. It was a shithole, no, really it was. Many of the buildings that are world famous today and tourists stand gawping at, were covered in grime and unloved back then. The '92 Olmpics kickstarted it all but the never ending regeneration and reinvention of Barcleona is simply incredible to watch. Bradford needs a kickstart,a tangible event, not any more initiatives or jargon...... "Bouncing Back" "One Lanscape, many views" or the last, launched Sept 2011 "The Positive Bradford", who remembers that?

[lazygamer]

What remains of Brown Muff...

image hosted on flickr

2012-03-05 11.44.08 by lazygamer, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

2012-03-05 11.44.16 by lazygamer, on Flickr

[paulwright89]

It certainly isn't twice the size of Leeds! My hazardous guess that it would be a bigger importance than Leeds must be a common perception, Liverpool always seems to come 3rd on the second city polls.

Bradford already hosts a large amounts of commuters to Leeds, I'm sure the figures aren't too much different (if not greater) than that of Huddersfield, and what has that done to develop the city centre? Not much by the looks of things.

Bradford doesn't/can't rival Leeds and it the wrong attitude for the city to have. However, if people are taking money out of the district and spending it in Leeds it impacts everything. Suddenly the developments happen in Leeds because thats where the money is (already been seen), people from Leeds are more likely to get the jobs that are associated with this, this persons wage then gets paid and recycles that into his local economy in somewhere like Morley. Thats whats wrong with too many people going out/shopping/eating/working in Leeds. Business theory relies heavily on knock of effects and I thought it was implied but obviously not.

There are benefits from being located next to Leeds that haven't yet been realised. However, like my argument all along has stated, Bradford being a sub-urbanised district of Leeds will not be beneficial to the development of the city centre. I lived in Manchester for 4 years and the amount of people you come across from stockport is significant to say the least, yet their town centre is non-existant. The people of stockport go out/eat/shop/work in manchester. Yes it has helped some residential districts like marple develop, but stockports town centre has suffered drastically from becoming commuterville.

[lazygamer]

Originally Posted by MarkJF

Bradford needs a kickstart,a tangible event, not any more initiatives or jargon...... "Bouncing Back" "One Landscape, many views" or the last, launched Sept 2011 "The Positive Bradford", who remembers that?

2 years ago...
image hosted on flickr

One Landscape, Many Views :/ by lazygamer, on Flickr

[MarkJF]

Originally Posted by lazygamer

2 years ago...
image hosted on flickr

One Landscape, Many Views :/ by lazygamer, on Flickr

Funny pic. Now, the re-clad side of the old police station is actually very good, nearly seamless, I think it's my favourite part of the park..........

[MarkJF]

Originally Posted by paulwright89

There are benefits from being located next to Leeds that haven't yet been realised. However, like my argument all along has stated, Bradford being a sub-urbanised district of Leeds will not be beneficial to the development of the city centre.

I agree (generally) with a lot of what you post Paul but I must be a bit older than you, what development of the city centre? What development do you expect to happen?

I'll take the benefits and a decaying/declining centre rather than no benefits and the same decaying/declining centre.

BTW when I go to Barcleona I stay with pal who lives in Badalona,once a proud independent town but now just about swallowed up by Barca. Big place, 220k population, small centre with basic shops but a lot of (busy) cafe/bars. To me, the town seems like it's purpose is to provide labour, parking and warehouse space for Barca, Badalona lives off Barcelona and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[paulwright89]

Originally Posted by MarkJF

I agree (generally) with a lot of what you post Paul but I must be a bit older than you, what development of the city centre? What development do you expect to happen?

I'll take the benefits and a decaying/declining centre rather than no benefits and the same decaying/declining centre.

BTW when I go to Barcleona I stay with pal who lives in Badalona,once a proud independent town but now just about swallowed up by Barca. Big place, 220k population, small centre with basic shops but a lot of (busy) cafe/bars. To me, the town seems like it's purpose is to provide labour, parking and warehouse space for Barca, Badalona lives off Barcelona and I don't see anything wrong with that.

From what I read Mark your hope for Bradford has been crushed through failed cycles of attempted regeneration projects followed by gradual demise of the city centre. If I was older I would probably feel much the same to be honest. I think the optimism, or naivety, of expecting big things from Bradford has certainly disappeared from me. Therefore, all I expect (or even hope) to happen is that Bradford becomes a place that is no longer embarrassing for its citizens. Somewhere people can shop, visit, live, work. In that order, at the moment, there are no shops, little entertainment, its intimidating and theres not a lot of work.

The artist drawings of a canal side high-rise development is way too optimistic for me and will probably never be a reality in my mind. Anything envious of other cities is highly doubtful, but the city is currently in a state where I find myself having to travel elsewhere for basic amenities, its those I want and expect to be sorted.

I've never been to Badalona but it sounds like a good place to live, however I'm skeptical because I can't think of a sub-urbanised town or city in the UK that has benefited as much as Badalona.

[MarkJF]

I am a realist, the centre is dead, maye it can recover in some way so that it can attract "visits", however, retail in that centre is finished..............forever.

When we say "Bradford" I don't always think of the centre, I may express mostly negative views about that but I am postively upbeat about North Bradford and other outlying areas and am far from embarrassed about living here, bang per buck it's hard to beat.

Badalona was an industrial centre, it fell on hard times from the 70's onwards. After 92 when Barcelona took off, it aligned itself with it's neighbour. It already had a metro train line but lobbied for, and got, a faster direct tram, from one centre to the other. It did not try to compete or distance itself but make it easier to facillitate the movement of money/people from Barcelona to Badalona..............

[riclam]

Originally Posted by MarkJF

Tbh, I can't imagine what local pride Bradfordians under 25 have? I take your point about Buttershaw & Holme Wood but I can name worse estates in Leeds right now..........




But did it attract any significant private investment or employment? I don't think Bradford was on an ascent in the late 80's and early 90's, they were great aspirational times and the first time that I became aware of people saying the lived or worked in Leeds, when in fact, they were in Bradford. No, it's been a linear decline since I started work, that was in 1978. The riots accelerated the decline and Bradford's negative national image was enhanced greatly, I don't know whether that can ever be reversed.

But, there is a chance, a slim one, but it's there. Fabulous victorian architecture, centrally located and a beautiful north side. I was in Barcelona last week, I used to visit regularly in the late 80's. It was a shithole, no, really it was. Many of the buildings that are world famous today and tourists stand gawping at, were covered in grime and unloved back then. The '92 Olmpics kickstarted it all but the never ending regeneration and reinvention of Barcleona is simply incredible to watch. Bradford needs a kickstart,a tangible event, not any more initiatives or jargon...... "Bouncing Back" "One Lanscape, many views" or the last, launched Sept 2011 "The Positive Bradford", who remembers that?

Well I am 26 and I am a proud Bradfordian I live in Bradford too, I am proud of its heritage and what it can acheive if it works at it. It needs to stop trying to compare to Leeds for itself and be different!

Most people I know say decline stared in the late 80's/90's and got much worse around 2000, I agree with them, in thelast 20 years to city has lost so much and of course the riots didnt help neither

[MarkJF]

Originally Posted by riclam

Most people I know say decline stared in the late 80's/90's and got much worse around 2000, I agree with them, in the last 20 years to city has lost so much and of course the riots didnt help neither

Well, they are wrong, if they were right then a regeneration campaign would not have been needed in 1986, would it?

I agree with your 2000 comments, since then the decline has been very rapid indeed.

[riclam]

[QUOTE=MarkJF;89184364]Well, they are wrong, if they were right then a regeneration campaign would not have been needed in 1986, would it?

I agree with your 2000 comments, since then the decline has been very rapid indeed.[/QUOTE

Dont care much for your egotistcal they are wrong and I am right, the people I refer to say bradfords got worse over last 40 years but real decline started 1990s like I said

I would rather live in 1986 bradford than 2011 bradford!

[MarkJF]

Originally Posted by riclam

Dont care much for your egotistcal they are wrong and I am right, the people I refer to say bradfords got worse over last 40 years but real decline started 1990s like I said

I would rather live in 1986 bradford than 2011 bradford!

You didn't say that before, you said "Most people I know say decline started in the late 80's/90's" and that is wrong, it was declining badly from much earlier IMO and had, like I said, a regeneration campaign in 1986, the rot had set in well before the mid 80's, many would argue that its decline started much earlier, with de-industrialisation. The centre of '78 when I started work was way better than the dump of the late '80's/early '90's, my mother would probably tell me what dump it was in '78 compared to the early '60's when I was born, and so it goes............

Interesting article, it mentions the 1970's as the start of the retail decline, depressing to think that this "feel good" article was from June 2001, and here we are today...................

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.u...ncing_back___/

[idlemoor]

Originally Posted by riclam

Dont care much for your egotistcal they are wrong and I am right, the people I refer to say bradfords got worse over last 40 years but real decline started 1990s like I said

Tha knows nowt lad.

The tipping point came one day in 1982, when three of the city's most significant manufacturing employers - International Harvester, GEC (previously English Electric), and Rank Wharfedale (Thorn, previously Baird Television, having closed not long before) - announced they were closing, by a cruel coincidence on the same day, thanks to the Thatcher recession.

Until that day, we had a Plan B for post-textile Bradford. After that day, nothing. It was that day that they were ludicrously 'Bouncing Back' from in 1986.

Read this: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...ial-assistance

If you don't remember life in Bradford before that day, you just don't have the data to do your bit of Freudian projection about right and wrong. Sorry to disillusion you.

[donnybradford]

It is saddening to see old pictures of more prosperous times. However what's happened has happened and unfortunately we can't bring that back, only learn.

We can and have taken steps to improve what we have, and I think its fair to say that in the last three years things have gotten better, we have a new city park, and the new provident / jurys building, trinity green college campus and culture fusion developement, the student village and also premier inn and travelodge.

Hopefully three years from now we will have westfield, some progress with the odeon and business forest, the bradford college redevelopement, further expansion to the university and maybe even citygate and the other mothballed developements if bradford goes about it in the right way.

Its not all doom and gloom, steady progress is better than nothing. Perception and PR is everything.

I was in nottingham a few days ago, and in terms of topography and size it didn't seem too different to Bradford. I had a fun few hours exploring the streets, plenty to see and do. Something Bradford could potentially offer with time.

And I think thats what it comes down to. There just needs to be more to see and do, more 'fun' in Bradford, not just the usual mcmalls and mcshops, although we need those too. We have the fastest growing young population. Get with the times and get on it Bradford !:P

[ahillyar]

I would say the recent severe decline starting almost at the same time as the Broadway works started, maybe when the now demolished part of Broadway started to be emptied a few years before.

Up to the first part of the 00s there had been various improvements in Bradford, the contruction of Centenary Square, refurbishment of what was the Media Museum, refurb of the Kirkgate Centre, rebuilding of Bradford Interchange, Rawson Square, Construction of Foster Square retail park etc.

Since then it's just been a catalogue of buildings being demolished, shops closing, entire streets becoming disused, major retailers like Probyns, Goldsmiths etc leaving the city which has spread from the Westfield site across the whole city.

It's funny how dismissive some people were of the capital of culture bid, yet Bradford was a million times better then than it is now

[di Livio]

The old Mechanics' Institution.

[Shiny_Dave]

Noticed this building with the stumped chimney has been demolished this week as part of the clearance works following the fire that destroyed the mill in the top right of the frame.

Anyone know why this bit of heritage was included in the clearance works?

[donnybradford]

Originally Posted by Shiny_Dave

Noticed this building with the stumped chimney has been demolished this week as part of the clearance works following the fire that destroyed the mill in the top right of the frame.

Anyone know why this bit of heritage was included in the clearance works?

It collpased over a road, its not demolition works, they are clearing the debris. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.u...all_collapses/