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Old June 24th, 2009, 03:17 AM   #401
bigbossman
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And that is bad why? New York City needs more taxpayers, not more government dependents, and Manhattan land is too expensive to waste it like that. The city needs to sell all the projects in Manhattan to private developers and use the money to build more housing in places like East NY.. or better yet, spend it on job training programs.
That's wrong you can't exclude poor people from manhattan just so you can make more money. There is a novel idea called raising taxes...
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Old June 24th, 2009, 03:58 PM   #402
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That's wrong you can't exclude poor people from manhattan just so you can make more money. There is a novel idea called raising taxes...
The point is that excluding poor to some sort of ghetto is an incredible stupid idea if done on purpose.

Mixing the people, wealthy and poorer prevents from downwards spiral ghettos. Overall it makes a city a better place to live.

Moreover you also need poorer people to work in Manhattan. Its not reasonable to let them travel unnecessarily large distances.

Vienna for example shows a rather mixed nature of rich and poor. There is hardly a district without public housing except for the old town, which is however not larger than maybe the part of Manhattan south of wall street.
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Old June 24th, 2009, 05:52 PM   #403
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The point is that excluding poor to some sort of ghetto is an incredible stupid idea if done on purpose.
They did that in the Netherlands. Most larger cities (100.000 + ) have about 2 - 3 neighborhoods that are nearly 100% social housing, and others do not have them that much.

It's hard to choose, on one hand, you keep all problems, unemployment, crime etc primarily in one place, and keep other parts of the city clean. On the other hand, I don't think those ghetto's are really desirable.
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Old June 24th, 2009, 06:34 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
The point is that excluding poor to some sort of ghetto is an incredible stupid idea if done on purpose.

Mixing the people, wealthy and poorer prevents from downwards spiral ghettos. Overall it makes a city a better place to live.

Moreover you also need poorer people to work in Manhattan. Its not reasonable to let them travel unnecessarily large distances.

Vienna for example shows a rather mixed nature of rich and poor. There is hardly a district without public housing except for the old town, which is however not larger than maybe the part of Manhattan south of wall street.
what? why are you saying that to me, the post you quoted doesn't refute anything you said, in fact it largely agrees with it.

I am not the one saying poor people should be excluded from manhattan.
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Old June 24th, 2009, 07:36 PM   #405
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Mixing the people, wealthy and poorer prevents from downwards spiral ghettos. Overall it makes a city a better place to live
Actually, it's the opposite. Mixing the middle class and the poor invariably causes middle class flight, turning formerly stable, taxpaying neighborhoods into ghettoes. That is what happened to the majority of American cities. The middle class now is overwhelmingly suburban and American cities are mostly dead.

Bang your social activist heads against the wall until you finally begin to understand it. The middle class and the poor DO NOT MIX. All attempts to force it cause neighborhood - and urban - destruction.

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Moreover you also need poorer people to work in Manhattan. Its not reasonable to let them travel unnecessarily large distances.
But it's reasonable to expect far more productive members of society to do so? Someone has to live farther out in a city as huge as NYC and for efficiency's sake it should be the lowest-earning members of society. The time they spend commuting is far less valuable than that of others.

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That's wrong you can't exclude poor people from manhattan just so you can make more money. There is a novel idea called raising taxes...
Yes, and there's an equally novel idea of relocating businesses to lower-tax areas. In 1950, NYC was home to over 140 of the Fortune 500 companies. By 2000 it was down to around 40, and now that Wall Street is half dead, will continue to decline further.

Your ilk is well on its way to turning NYC into another Detroit. Good luck. Two thirds of NYC is already a third world **hole. Just a bit more to go!
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Old June 25th, 2009, 08:47 AM   #406
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I'm guessing you're basing your opinion of French ghettos from the media. The fact is, gun violence and homicide is much lower there than in many American ghettos. And there are many different ghettos in France and America, some are worse than others. I think that the spatial segregation is much more pronounced in the Paris ghettos I've seen than the ones I'm familiar with in the U.S.
You should read some of what Loic Wacquant researched on the subject...

As a matter of fact this is actualy false, simply because the word "ghettos" in France and the US don't actualy have the same meanings, they are not the same social phenomenons.

US "ghettos" are much more closed upon themselves and limited to one ethnicity, which is not the case in France.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 05:52 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Woozle View Post
Actually, it's the opposite. Mixing the middle class and the poor invariably causes middle class flight, turning formerly stable, taxpaying neighborhoods into ghettoes. That is what happened to the majority of American cities. The middle class now is overwhelmingly suburban and American cities are mostly dead.
This is a largely american problem, yes it happened in europe but it is reversing as governments look to restrict suburban developments and the sprawl of cities. It's a no brainer that "white flight" was in part down to having urban areas with limitless boudaries, London has the green belt hemming the city in, what does New york have?

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Bang your social activist heads against the wall until you finally begin to understand it. The middle class and the poor DO NOT MIX. All attempts to force it cause neighborhood - and urban - destruction.
In the USA where you seem less socially minded. In Europe especially London people live where they can, the bad parts of London also have some of London's most expensive and desirable housing.

the middle class and the poor may not mix on the social level, but they still live in the same areas. whether it is home-onwers in a largely rented area or a housing estate in a "posh" area. It happens.

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But it's reasonable to expect far more productive members of society to do so? Someone has to live farther out in a city as huge as NYC and for efficiency's sake it should be the lowest-earning members of society. The time they spend commuting is far less valuable than that of others.
wow your views are what's wrong with society you sound like someone stuck in the 1980s, let the poor suffer for the good of everyone else. An effective and fair society looks after those at the bottom first, not last!

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Yes, and there's an equally novel idea of relocating businesses to lower-tax areas. In 1950, NYC was home to over 140 of the Fortune 500 companies. By 2000 it was down to around 40, and now that Wall Street is half dead, will continue to decline further.
When did i ever say anything about corporation tax...

That's your problem where you have allowed it to happen, London would say different, poor people live everywhere and the business environment is thriving relatively speaking.

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Your ilk is well on its way to turning NYC into another Detroit. Good luck. Two thirds of NYC is already a third world **hole. Just a bit more to go!
Your ilk is what created the rust belt in the first place, once again it's an ingrained American problem, can't you see sprawl and suburbanisation is the problem not having poor people in rich areas...
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Old June 25th, 2009, 06:19 PM   #408
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what? why are you saying that to me, the post you quoted doesn't refute anything you said, in fact it largely agrees with it.

I am not the one saying poor people should be excluded from manhattan.
Sorry, I did not intend to attack you, or no one else. Actually I wanted to address the same post you answered to. I should have checked what I quote more carefully.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 06:27 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Woozle View Post
Actually, it's the opposite. Mixing the middle class and the poor invariably causes middle class flight, turning formerly stable, taxpaying neighborhoods into ghettoes. That is what happened to the majority of American cities. The middle class now is overwhelmingly suburban and American cities are mostly dead.

Bang your social activist heads against the wall until you finally begin to understand it. The middle class and the poor DO NOT MIX. All attempts to force it cause neighborhood - and urban - destruction.
Thats simply not true. I live in a part of the town where the richest people, the middle class, and workers live right next to each other. I can not see any of your claims being reality here. Its actually a nice stable neighborhood.

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But it's reasonable to expect far more productive members of society to do so? Someone has to live farther out in a city as huge as NYC and for efficiency's sake it should be the lowest-earning members of society. The time they spend commuting is far less valuable than that of others.
Well, what you are suggesting is banning all the poor to some periphery ghettos. Thats the recipe for social unrest and troubles.

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Yes, and there's an equally novel idea of relocating businesses to lower-tax areas. In 1950, NYC was home to over 140 of the Fortune 500 companies. By 2000 it was down to around 40, and now that Wall Street is half dead, will continue to decline further.

Your ilk is well on its way to turning NYC into another Detroit. Good luck. Two thirds of NYC is already a third world **hole. Just a bit more to go!
I did not talk about offices, I talked about residentials. But of course the Central business district should not be the only place of offices. Office capacities need to be existent at all local subcenters as well, preferably next to subway/PT hubs. Those areas around the hubs should be a good mixture of residential, office and commercial uses.

You have to make sure of course that you don't create vast overcapacities for offices. I guess thats what may be a reason for half empty offices in NYC, well and the crises. Representation might be unaffordable for a lot of companies now. This should chance again once the economic climate improves again.
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Old June 26th, 2009, 06:16 AM   #410
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The poor can mix with middle class just fine.

Seattle does a good job with this. Through a voter-approved levy that's currently $16m a year, we always have low-income buildings going up around the city, often in Greater Downtown.

Generally these are built by nonprofits. We have several good organizations that build nice looking, quality housing.

Some are individual buildings, often in the 50-100-unit range. For example an 84-unit building broke ground last week 1.5 blocks from my condo, for homeless and mentally ill. I gave the group, Plymouth Housing Group, a check.

Others are re-dos of entire "project" neighborhoods. In this area, the WWII-era projects were generally in the 5/acre range, and around 100 acres. They're being rebuilt mostly in the 10/acre range, always with a mix of income levels. So far they're doing well.

Maybe it's different in a city with higher demand for housing...the concept of "emptying out" is foreign.
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Old June 27th, 2009, 08:30 AM   #411
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The reason why U.S ghettos are much worse than those in Europe is quite obvious, because the U.S is more capitalistic and there's almost no social benefit and other types of welfare, and this is why there're cities like Detroit or New Orleans in the U.S, where half of the population lives below the poverty line, and there're over 400 murders each year.
Unfortunately the situation in Europe , esp. in Germany, UK, France and the Netherlands is going down the same way , where the society becomes "Ghettoized" and ethnic segregation becomes common. This isn't just to blame on the increasing capitalism, though it is definitely the major reason for the growing divide between poor and rich, just like in the 70's in the U.S., but also some ethnic groups (esp. Muslimic-not all obvioulsy,not even the majority, but still a very large percentage of the Muslim population) choose to not integrate themselves into the wider society, but to create their own ethnic ghettos , though compared to the ghettos in the U.S. with their daunting crime rate the European Ghettos are more preferable, even though the Issues of failed integration and segregation in Western Europe have to be addressed too and dealt with.
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Old June 27th, 2009, 12:07 PM   #412
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segregation in Europe is nowhere near US levels.
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Old June 28th, 2009, 05:07 PM   #413
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In Germany there aren't really any ghettos. Sure, there are high-income and low-income areas, but if one compares rents, the high-income area may at most score 50% above the low-income area.

That there are "ethnic ghettos" is a myth. Sure, there may be "concentrations", but again, you'll rarely find a district in any city where the amount of non-ethnic-Germans is more than 50% above average. Meaning, in a typical Western German city with 12% non-ethnic-Germans, you will be hard-pressed to find an area with more than 18%, but also hard-pressed to find an area with less than 6%. And the areas with 6% in that case won't be the low-income areas.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 02:15 AM   #414
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In Germany there aren't really any ghettos. Sure, there are high-income and low-income areas, but if one compares rents, the high-income area may at most score 50% above the low-income area.

That there are "ethnic ghettos" is a myth. Sure, there may be "concentrations", but again, you'll rarely find a district in any city where the amount of non-ethnic-Germans is more than 50% above average. Meaning, in a typical Western German city with 12% non-ethnic-Germans, you will be hard-pressed to find an area with more than 18%, but also hard-pressed to find an area with less than 6%. And the areas with 6% in that case won't be the low-income areas.
Well, yes, on average most German cities don't have districts where the number of foreigners is higher than 30%, but districts like Neukölln in Berlin, Schwanthalerhöhe in Munich, or Bahnhofsviertel in Frankfurt certainly do have over 50% of Non-Ethnic Germans (mostly Turks), and the demographic trends certainly tend to say that this situation is increasingly becoming more common-place all around Germany and other WE countries, where Muslims don't integrate into society and form their own neighbourhoods , just like some ethnic groups in the U.S. If this is a good or bad thing is discutable, but there's no denying in that segregation between certain ethnic groups (Muslims and non-Muslims) is happening in Western Europe.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 06:47 AM   #415
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Actually, it's the opposite. Mixing the middle class and the poor invariably causes middle class flight, turning formerly stable, taxpaying neighborhoods into ghettoes. That is what happened to the majority of American cities. The middle class now is overwhelmingly suburban and American cities are mostly dead.

Bang your social activist heads against the wall until you finally begin to understand it. The middle class and the poor DO NOT MIX. All attempts to force it cause neighborhood - and urban - destruction.



But it's reasonable to expect far more productive members of society to do so? Someone has to live farther out in a city as huge as NYC and for efficiency's sake it should be the lowest-earning members of society. The time they spend commuting is far less valuable than that of others.



Yes, and there's an equally novel idea of relocating businesses to lower-tax areas. In 1950, NYC was home to over 140 of the Fortune 500 companies. By 2000 it was down to around 40, and now that Wall Street is half dead, will continue to decline further.

Your ilk is well on its way to turning NYC into another Detroit. Good luck. Two thirds of NYC is already a third world **hole. Just a bit more to go!
You have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing you've said about NYC is based on experience at all. I agree with others, people like you are exactly what's wrong with American society. You've been brainwashed to think that the poor are poor simply because they are lazy and 'unproductive', while the rich have obviously earned their right to live in luxury and indifference
I for one live in a very socially and economically diverse area, and it's not as uncommon as you're imagining. Middle class flight, or white flight, is more complex than you think but had a lot to do with the social climate of desegregation during the 1950s, among other things. The point is, it's not a simple matter of 'poor people and middle class don't mix'. That's just ridiculous!

It's funny you cite the example of Detroit is an example of a failed city, yet you yourself are advocated for the very segregation that has destroyed our cities. The only difference is you're advocating segregation in the reverse, i.e the poor should be confined to the 'suburbs' while the rich should inhabit the centers

NYC a third world s**thole?? Seriously, do you just form opinions of cities you've never set foot in after watching right wing "news"?
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Old June 29th, 2009, 11:18 AM   #416
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They did that in the Netherlands. Most larger cities (100.000 + ) have about 2 - 3 neighborhoods that are nearly 100% social housing, and others do not have them that much.

It's hard to choose, on one hand, you keep all problems, unemployment, crime etc primarily in one place, and keep other parts of the city clean. On the other hand, I don't think those ghetto's are really desirable.
Well Vienna has those commie block quarters as well. But its them that make clear that mixing is a far better option. Those sleeping cities for the poor are not such a great thing.

Whereas, one of them is quite special. Alterlaa houses around 10 000 people. They are however more rather lower middle class but still a lot of workers I guess. Even though looks like a little bit prettier commie block its a great place to live according to the inhabitants. But this also only works as far as I can see it, because not only the poorest of the poor with no future and no options fill these blocks.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 04:51 AM   #417
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And that is bad why? New York City needs more taxpayers, not more government dependents, and Manhattan land is too expensive to waste it like that. The city needs to sell all the projects in Manhattan to private developers and use the money to build more housing in places like East NY.. or better yet, spend it on job training programs.
Actually, NYC has become very gentrified over the past few decades. There's just a few significant pockets of lower-income & working class people at the lower & upper ends of Manhatten. Much of Brooklyn (ENY & Brownsville being one of the few exceptions, but even those areas have a lot more vitality than they did 30 years ago) are is gentrified & Queens is next. Really, the Bronx is about the only borough left where a large share of the population is poor. A large share of the poor population of NYC has left the city for places in NJ, CT, & other parts of the outer fringes of the metropolitan area.

As far as "government dependents", the biggest dependents, on welfare to the tune of hundreds of billions, by far at this point are concentrated in that awful ghetto called called Wall Street.
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Old July 4th, 2009, 01:12 AM   #418
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Old July 4th, 2009, 07:32 PM   #419
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The desire to isolate their children from the influences of the "street" (read: kids from poor families) played a key role in the US middle class flight to suburbia. Germany does a more politically correct job at it: it segregates children into gymnasiums, real schools and haupt-schools without the need for the parents to move. This also significantly reduces ethnic tensions. "In fact, fewer than 10% of all Turkish students make it to the end of Gymnasium.. one study indicated that the majority of Turkish children continue to be sent to Hauptschule" (Muslims of Metropolis By Kavitha Rajagopalan).

In order to obtain the same effect in the US, a middle class family would have to move to the suburbs: there are no different-level schools in the US. And that is precisely what happened.

"In an elementary school in Berlin Neukölln 85% of the children are of non-German origin" - yeah, right. No 'white flight' and ethnic segregation in Germany, my furry behind.

Quote:
The poor can mix with middle class just fine.

Seattle does a good job with this. Through a voter-approved levy that's currently $16m a year, we always have low-income buildings going up around the city, often in Greater Downtown.
Really? Sixteen million dollars? If that figure is correct, $16 million a year would get you um.. around 100 basic housing units in a city of close to 600,000 people? Yeah, that's the way to be politically correct. Build a handful of apartments each year in one of the most unaffordable cities in America and trumpet it nationwide.
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Old July 4th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #420
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You have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing you've said about NYC is based on experience at all. I agree with others, people like you are exactly what's wrong with American society. You've been brainwashed to think that the poor are poor simply because they are lazy and 'unproductive', while the rich have obviously earned their right to live in luxury and indifference
Ah, yes, the "I know you are, but what am I" style of argument.

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I for one live in a very socially and economically diverse area, and it's not as uncommon as you're imagining. Middle class flight, or white flight, is more complex than you think but had a lot to do with the social climate of desegregation during the 1950s, among other things.
Perhaps you can explain why a net of several hundred thousand US-born households abandoned Los Angeles - and California overall - in the 2000's, and likewise, several hundred thousand US-born households abandoned California in the 1990's and, importantly, what the 1950's have to do with it?

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The point is, it's not a simple matter of 'poor people and middle class don't mix'. That's just ridiculous!
It is. But talking about people of different ethnicities not mixing is far more politically incorrect.

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It's funny you cite the example of Detroit is an example of a failed city, yet you yourself are advocated for the very segregation that has destroyed our cities. The only difference is you're advocating segregation in the reverse, i.e the poor should be confined to the 'suburbs' while the rich should inhabit the centers
I'm not "advocating" the voluntary segregation. I'm merely observing it and reporting on it to people who respond by trying to bury their heads deeper in the sand. The middle class will continue fleeing to areas that are demographically and economically fairly homogenous: which for the most part means suburban sprawl. This is all.
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