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Old August 16th, 2009, 11:44 PM   #441
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In Paris, most of the racial & ethnic minorities are segregated in the suburban projects a long way from the downtowns.
God, this is so cliché.
The geographic pattern of ethnic minorities in Paris (and in France) is far more complex than what you've described...
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:53 AM   #442
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I

The levels of segregation in the US are way higher than in Europe. According to the last census segregation was on the level of the 1960s, and getting worse, and in several major cities surpassing those in Apartheid era South Africa. -This of course doesn't mean that everyone hates each other, just that communities have the option to congregate, and readily do so on a multicultural model.

This is unheard of in Europe (France aside). Bear in mind entire countries like Sweden are 15% foreign born, Switzerland 20%, cities like Stockholm 20%, Paris 25%, London 40%, Amsterdam 45%, Brussels 47%, Rotterdam 50%, whilst 60% of children in German cities now have at least one foreign born parent, and White British children are outnumbered 2 to 1 in their London schools. The rates of mixed marriages are also far higher in Europe than US, despite US having centuries of history of multiculturalism.

Case example, London 40% foreign born, 50% non English ancestry in total, from 85 communities speaking 340 languages - and rising at rates approaching NYC in its turn of the century immigration heyday, and set to surpass it. However, despite the numbers, there isn't a single ethnic ghetto, the highest percentage being only 63% Pakistani in the ward of Central Slough. The fastest growing ethnic group is 'mixed race'. Compare this with US cities like NYC where every neighbourhood is 85%-98% of a single race, and sharply delineated by specific streets, where you can cross from say a 95% White neighbourhood into an 88% Hispanic neighbourhood. (As I mentioned before this doesnt mean NYC is racist, but it is segregated residentially).
I'm quite familar with the levels of racial-ethnic diversity in the UK & Europe & there's not much comparison with the numbers or percentages in the US, its like comparing apples & oranges. The only notable exception is that Europe has far larger numbers of Muslims & Roma as compared to the US. In the US, where the Muslim/Roma populations are small, there's not much of an issue about segregation or stigmatization.

On the EU & other European immigrants that the UK is receiving, keep in mind that the US got its big European immigration in the 19th/early 20th century, & there's still considerable inflow, especially from Eastern Europe & the Balkans since the Soviet bloc crashed. NYC lays claim to being the biggest Jewish city in the world, the biggest Irish city, & the third biggest Italian city outside of Italy, etc. Chicago can claim to be the biggest Polish city outside Poland, etc.

I'm not sure where your information on racial-ethnic segregation in the US comes from. As I've stated, its way too high, but the levels of segregation have been slowly but steadily decreasing rather than increasing. Where you find the highest levels of metropolitan segregation are around rustbelt cities like Detroit, where there are hardly any whites left within the city. Those are historic legacies & a highly aberational cases.

As for NYC being segregated, I think you must be describing the aberational contrast in Manhatten between the Upper East Side (heavily white) & East Harlem (heavily black & Latino) thats a very aberational case. Manhatten is really the most segregated & least diverse part of NYC owing a great deal to historic patterns & gentrification.

Most of the other boros of NYC are much more diverse. Queens home, to most of NYC's East & South Asian, as well as Latino, Caribbean, & African immigrants, has become one of the most diverse counties in the US, & Brooklyn isn't far behind. Staten Island too has gotten a lot more diverse. There aren't many whites left in the Bronx, but there are many different black (Afro-Am, Caribbean, African) and Latino (PR, Dominican, Mexican, Central American) groups. Jersey City, right across the Hudson in the NY Metro area is also one of the most diverse cities in the world. All in all, NYC is the most diverse city in the world.

As for immigrants, based on the most recent comparable census, (US 2000, UK 2001) both the NYC & Los Angeles consolidated metros have larger TOTAL numbers of immigrants than all of the UK. The TOTAL black population in the UK is dwarfted by the black population in a SINGLE mid-sized US metro like Atlanta. As for mixed race, its also the fastest-growing group in the US. Indeed, the multi-racial population in the US (which now includes our prez) exceeds by substantial margin the TOTAL racial minority population in the UK.

Looking ahead at the future, the US Census Bureau has projected that that for example, the total Hispanic population in the US (an umbrella encompassing over 20 different, mostly mestzo & mullato, nationalities) will grow to more than 130 million by 2050. Really, are there any projections that the UK might reach that population level?

Really, I can't think of any other country that has the same scale of racial & ethnic diversity & demographic transformation of the US. Sure, criticize us, but for our stark levels of social & economic ineqiality, thats our biggest challenge.

Last edited by bayviews; August 18th, 2009 at 03:21 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 02:10 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by GM View Post
God, this is so cliché.
The geographic pattern of ethnic minorities in Paris (and in France) is far more complex than what you've described...
Isn't it the case though that at least around Paris, many of not most of the Arabs & Africans are concentrated in the projects in the suburban banueles, at least thats a concern I here from many of the black & Muslim French?

I do really admire the French employment, social, & healthcare systems, which we had the same, but when it comes to inclusion of minorities, France seems to be lagging behind.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:22 AM   #444
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Bayview,

ON the laying claims to biggest Polish city etc, those are claims made by descent, which isn't considered in Europe, due to the traditional exchange of populations through the ages, right till today. If the London made the same claims by descent it would be the worlds largest Irish city (900,000 ethnic Irish, whilst 2.5 million trace Irish roots, and estimates within the city proper put it as high as 77% - that's 5.5 million) aswell as French (an estimated half of native White Londoners are said to be descended from 19th Century Huguenots) - note the numbers would overlap. Bear in mind London is only now approaching levels of foreign born population as in medieval times, not to mention Roman. Also the fact there were 20,000 Africans in the city during the 1600s, that there were 3000 Indians already in London when the first Englishman set foot in India. What happened to all these minorities? They all intermarried, and their ethnic lines were diluted into the native stock. The trend for many is to tick White British within one generation, whether you be from say Irish, Polish or Turkish descent.


Also don't go by the 2001 census, notoriously undercounted (it didn't count EU citizens, students, visa workers etc. and 'lost' 1 million British males for starters, it also claimed there were not even a thousand Welsh or Scots in the entire city), and is notoriously out of date. Since then its missed out on the 4 biggest waves of immigration the country has ever seen:

1. The first wave -EU membership allowing the right of abode anywhere for all members, and neither are they counted at the UK borders. Estimates at the number of French in London alone range from 100-200,000, Italians, Germans, and Spaniards over 100,000 each, and as for Greek speakers over 200,000 if you include Cypriots, while there are tens of thousands of Scandics, Portuguese and Benelux citizens.

2. The EU expansions 2002 and again 2007 (500,000 Poles alone, 60,000 Romanians within the first 3 months of EU entry, before the govt stopped counting, tens of thousands of Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgarians and Baltic natives)

3. the African wave since 2002 (that more than doubled the entire Black population of the country within a few years, and overtook the Caribs as the main minority) - East and West Africans mostly. The Nigerians, a small 200 year old community, have swelled to displace the Indians as the cities largest minority, and the largest Nigerian community overseas - a whopping 2.3 million by some estimates, compared to a few thousand in the 2001 census. Ghanaians number 850,000 in the capital according to the Ghanaian High Commission, about 240,000 Kenyans.

4. the unprecedented Latin American wave (as mentioned before)

In smaller waves there are also the ANZAC and ex-Empire countries - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. Also East Asians are the fastest growing minority alot of them illegal - Chinese numbers estimates are as low as 100,000 to over 200,000. Thais are nearing 100,000, Filipinos 130,000 with numbers of Japanese in the SE region over 100,000, mostly in London - all recent arrivals, and once again mostly unrecorded on visas or studentships. Significant numbers of Koreans also work and study here (about 50,000 ), as do a large number of Malaysians - the language of Chinatown has notably reverted from Hong Kongers Cantonese in the 1980s to the mainland Chinese Mandarin of the 1990s, and now to southern languages of the Malaysians in 00s.

Since the war Iraqis now number over 130,000. Jamaicans have grown to near 400,000, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis to 200,000 each, Colombians to 120,000. Turks in the UK have grown to 500,000 mostly in London, including one operation that smuggled in an estimated 100,000 illegals by 2005.

Basically London never claimed to be the worlds most cosmopolitan city before (depending how you measure it), only after these waves has it done so, with an estimated 50% non native, 40% foreign born nowadays - and some say higher, and speaking 340 languages (twice the number claimed by NYC). In terms of numbers NYC may be ahead as the larger city, but percentages I'm not so sure *, and in number of minorities no.

*Once again bear in mind UK doesn't record descent either.

Last edited by the spliff fairy; August 18th, 2009 at 05:29 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:24 AM   #445
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Oh yep, on the residential segregation of NYC, its not based on two neighbourhoods but several. I remember National Geographic did an ethnic map of the city by racial lines - almost every neighbourhood was strictly delineated, and with very high percentages - all mid 80s or higher. On some parts of Long island it was in the late 90s.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 05:34 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by bayviews View Post

Really, I can't think of any other country that has the same scale of racial & ethnic diversity & demographic transformation of the US. Sure, criticize us, but for our stark levels of social & economic ineqiality, thats our biggest challenge.

PS I think you need to look at some ethnic maps of Asia - Indonesia has about 388 ethnic groups alone, India is literally too complex for maps to even exist. The Middle East, Central Asia and SE Asia are also incredibly diverse, as is Africa, said to be the worlds most diverse region - for example Chad speaks 120 languages, Nigerians 521.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 05:42 AM   #447
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Spiff fairy, I know London very well, its changed a lot for the better since the first time I was there many eoons ago, when many "didn't let to coloured". The Peopling of London is one of my favorite histories of your city, I read it before there was anything like these forums.

The problem though with many of the claims (not to single you out, but by many on forums like these) that have been made about London is the lack of documentation. Let's not go back to the 20,000 Africans that were (said to be) in London during the 1600s, it doesn't really matter at this point.

I'm aware of the limitation that have been ascribed to the 2001 UK census. But of course much the same was said about the 2000 US Census, as well as previous ones that many minorities & immigrants, especially undocumented ones, were undercounted. But you have to have a basis of comparison, you just can't toss out numbers. I use the most conservative numbers as the basis of comparison.

Have you ever heard the story about Australia? That if all the estimates of the populations claimed by politicians & representatives of various ethnic were totaled up, Australia's population would be more than that of the US? Sometimes I think the same could be said for the UK or Canada!

One diffrence though is that as you've stated, the UK census only documents a few of the traditional & largest ethnic & minority groups. By contrast, the US Census now very detailed, albeit complicated & often inconsistent in the treatment of different groups. There are data for umbrella groups (Asians, Latinos etc.) sub-groups (Chinese, Columbians etc.) & hundreds of nationality (Italian, Polish) & ancestry (Creoles, Freanch Hugenot, Lumbee) groups.

You simply can't be serious to suggest though that the numbers of racial & ethnic minorities in London even approach in numbers or percentages to the reality in NYC. The TOTAL black population of the UK as of 2001 was 1.1 million & the Asian population less than 1.9 million.

By the most minimal count (single race only),as of 2000, the black population in the NYC consolidated metro of 21.2 million numbered 3.4 million, the Asian population 1.4 million, & the Latino population 3.9 million.

Within each umbrealla, including white, there's a great degree of variety. For example, in NYC, the majority of the black population is now of Caribbean or African immigrant background, rather than Afro-American. Of NYC's Latinos, less than a quarter are Puerto Rican, Dominicans & Mexicans are poised to pull ahead as the largest Latino groups.

As for the numbers of immigrants, the NYC consolidated metro had 5.2 million as of 2000much higher than the total for UK.

Actually, in many ways, I'd grant you that London has (or at least before the financial bubble burst, had) a more cosmopolitan flair than NYC in the sense that it has many, mostly highly-educated & well connected residents & others who've have come (to work, invest, speculate, play, etc) from many different corners of the world. London's better situated as a global crossroads than NYC.

But as far as racial & ethnic diversity of its full-time population, London just doesn't approach the diversity of NYC.

But lets hope that the UK 2011 census turns out to be better, than maybe you can better back up your documentation as far as London's diversity goes.

Last edited by bayviews; August 18th, 2009 at 05:55 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:46 PM   #448
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Apartment buildings form barrier against fire in Tokyo



http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=12057
Fire Tornado
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/fire-tornado.html

about 90,000 people died in an evacuation site(160.000m2) in 1923, Great Kanto Earthquake because fire Tornado attacked there
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:50 PM   #449
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Like I keep saying, not just that the 2001 census was heavily undercounted (eg EU citizens didnt have to fill them out, at least 1 million males disappeared), but after 2001 it missed out on the 4 biggest waves of immigration the country's ever seen, and became the world's largest destination for asylum seekers. That has to mean something. The already sizeable EU and Black populations have more than doubled since then, the South Asians almost, the smaller East Asian and Latin American groups multiple times.

It goes to show that the 2001 census puts the number of Nigerians at 68,000 whereas today the very lowest estimates are 600,000, the highest 2.3 million. Jamaicans unbelievably only registered at 80,000, while studies put that figure more accurately around the 400,000 mark in 2006. Ghanaians 46,000 in 2001, Ghanaian High Commission puts it at 850,000 in 2008. To put the Indians and Irish at only 150-170,000 in 2001, was way off the mark then, to consider those numbers the same today is laughable. And to believe there are only a few hundred Scots and Welsh in the city... Basically there are huge discrepancies in almost every ethnic group, not just because of undercounting, but mainly because of it being out of date, heavily.





btw we're not talking CSA figures here, as you are, but city proper. Also most immigrants to the UK are in and around London. Also note, those immigrants do not include EU citizens who aren't counted, and automatically have freedom of abode in the country.


I also think there's a big ideological difference in the way the NYC figures and UK figures are being bandied about. Youre talking more about race (irrespective of country of birth), whereas Im talking specific ethnicities/ countries of birth. Eg a big proportion of London's immigrants are made up of Europeans and Middle Easterners- but would still count as White in a US census, whilst on the other hand the number of Americans, who have been there for countless generations, and are still considered diversity enriching (eg Black Americans, Irish Americans etc), wouldnt be counted so separately if that were the case in UK. Basically the UK studies concentrate on the controversial issue of ongoing immigration, rather than long established, settled races. In short to say that NYC is a certain percentage non-White compared to London, would be missing out on London's largest foreign born, ethnic communities (who happen to be White), also it would smooth over the fact many of those 'ethnic' New Yorkers are just as native as the White Americans, and countless generations removed from immigrants, for centuries.


btw Foreign born in NYC is 36% (2007), in London 31% (as of 2006, and not including EU citizens), and rising exponentially. I think they are more than comparable.


PS When was the last time you visited London?

Last edited by the spliff fairy; August 18th, 2009 at 06:50 PM.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 06:41 PM   #450
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...
In Paris, most of the racial & ethnic minorities are segregated in the suburban projects a long way from the downtowns.
...
I'm not sure if most of the racial & ethnic minorities are segregated in the suburban housing projects but I do know that housing projects do house many of them...in fact, they often make up the majority of tenants living in many of them. Not sure if that distinction makes sense to someone else other than me.

But HLM's as they are called in France (housing at moderated rents or subsidised housing) are spread out throughout all of the Greater Paris region (and that of other urban centers), not just far from Paris-proper. This is because Greater Paris is subdivided into small jurisdictions with their own mayor (arrondissements inside Paris and communes or municipalities outside Paris-proper). These are fined if they do not dedicate a certain number of their housing units (or space?) to social housing. It is known for well-to-do suburban jurisdictions and Parisian arrondissements such as those in the more wealthy west side to just pay the fine rather than fullfill that national requirement. However, many others do try to maintain "the number" and as a result you find subsidised housing throughout most of Paris + suburbs, including the suburban municipalities immediately outside the Paris ring road. Many are inside Paris, too. Many are walking distance to the gates of Paris or to Metro stations where you can just use the normal, less expensive Metro tickets vs the Zone-sensitive tarifs of the RER. However, it is true that many huge housing projects exist further out, even in the distant suburbs, where more land was available in the late 50s and throughout the 60s. It is these where more segregation probably occurs because surrounding those big housing projects are single-family, middle-class-ish or upscale, suburban neighorhoods so those two worlds probably mix less. So if you look at Paris on Google Maps you will see the ugly 50s/60s/70s concrete monstrosities quite well distributed throughout the Greater Paris region, often as big, discrete clusters.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 04:56 AM   #451
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http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=12057
Fire Tornado
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/fire-tornado.html

about 90,000 people died in an evacuation site(160.000m2) in 1923, Great Kanto Earthquake because fire Tornado attacked there
Thats one of the most innovative use and planning of Japanese Danchis
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Old August 19th, 2009, 05:58 AM   #452
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Like I keep saying, not just that the 2001 census was heavily undercounted (eg EU citizens didnt have to fill them out, at least 1 million males disappeared), but after 2001 it missed out on the 4 biggest waves of immigration the country's ever seen, and became the world's largest destination for asylum seekers. That has to mean something. The already sizeable EU and Black populations have more than doubled since then, the South Asians almost, the smaller East Asian and Latin American groups multiple times.

It goes to show that the 2001 census puts the number of Nigerians at 68,000 whereas today the very lowest estimates are 600,000, the highest 2.3 million. Jamaicans unbelievably only registered at 80,000, while studies put that figure more accurately around the 400,000 mark in 2006. Ghanaians 46,000 in 2001, Ghanaian High Commission puts it at 850,000 in 2008. To put the Indians and Irish at only 150-170,000 in 2001, was way off the mark then, to consider those numbers the same today is laughable. And to believe there are only a few hundred Scots and Welsh in the city... Basically there are huge discrepancies in almost every ethnic group, not just because of undercounting, but mainly because of it being out of date, heavily.
Those sound like very major undercountings in the last UK census.

Clearly the 2001 UK census data were huge undercounts, while its really hard to verify those kind of estimates. With such flaws, any of the numbers that get put out about the racial-ethnic diversity of London are going to be suspect & so there's not a real solid basis for comparison at this point.

We've been thru that challenge in the US & a key in reaching harder to count residents including undocumented immigrants, etc, has been better community outreach well ahead of the enumeration.

I'll be looking forward to seeing how the 2011 census numbers look for London, than maybe you'll have more basis for an accurate comparision with NYC or other places.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 06:40 AM   #453
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Thats one of the most innovative use and planning of Japanese Danchis
I too enjoyed these videos. The goofy-Japanese sighs were also funny to watch.
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Old August 20th, 2009, 12:08 PM   #454
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Those sound like very major undercountings in the last UK census.

Clearly the 2001 UK census data were huge undercounts, while its really hard to verify those kind of estimates. With such flaws, any of the numbers that get put out about the racial-ethnic diversity of London are going to be suspect & so there's not a real solid basis for comparison at this point.

We've been thru that challenge in the US & a key in reaching harder to count residents including undocumented immigrants, etc, has been better community outreach well ahead of the enumeration.

I'll be looking forward to seeing how the 2011 census numbers look for London, than maybe you'll have more basis for an accurate comparison with NYC or other places.
Yep, in 2001 it was all over the tv if you didn't fill in your census form you would be fined £1000, and the importance that the census would be. This was going to be the census that would beat all other censuses. However I remember they arrived without addresses, as a bundle of forms in the foyer of our building. Months later they were still there - noone else had bothered to pick them up, I think maybe due to the high amount of renters, transnationals, and people who genuinely didn't care. My flatmates for one were never fined either.

Of course at the end of it, several million people went 'missing' in the country, especially in the inner cities, with London boroughs losing nearly a quarter of their population from their registers only 1 year previous (which themselves only count official homeowners). They even set up the CCS, the Census Coverage Survey to cross reference sections of the population to get an estimate of how many went missing. Theories of how so many people 'evaded detection' (which makes it sound like a covert and intricate operation) range from mass emigration to mass immigration. New ideas call for a 'rolling' census every year as being more representative, boosted by council tax data and registry, and pretty much caving in to the libertine tradition.
Now if they paid us £1000 rather than fined us...




.

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Old August 22nd, 2009, 03:35 AM   #455
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Yep, in 2001 it was all over the tv if you didn't fill in your census form you would be fined £1000, and the importance that the census would be. This was going to be the census that would beat all other censuses. However I remember they arrived without addresses, as a bundle of forms in the foyer of our building. Months later they were still there - noone else had bothered to pick them up, I think maybe due to the high amount of renters, transnationals, and people who genuinely didn't care. My flatmates for one were never fined either.

Of course at the end of it, several million people went 'missing' in the country, especially in the inner cities, with London boroughs losing nearly a quarter of their population from their registers only 1 year previous (which themselves only count official homeowners). They even set up the CCS, the Census Coverage Survey to cross reference sections of the population to get an estimate of how many went missing. Theories of how so many people 'evaded detection' (which makes it sound like a covert and intricate operation) range from mass emigration to mass immigration. New ideas call for a 'rolling' census every year as being more representative, boosted by council tax data and registry, and pretty much caving in to the libertine tradition.
Now if they paid us £1000 rather than fined us...
.
Might it be that many, if not most, of those "several million" who went "missing" might not have actually been in the UK to begin with?
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 04:00 AM   #456
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no, millions went missing from other counts compared, eg those registered already on electoral rolls or council taxpayers only 1 year previous.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 11:43 PM   #457
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I'm not sure if most of the racial & ethnic minorities are segregated in the suburban housing projects but I do know that housing projects do house many of them...in fact, they often make up the majority of tenants living in many of them. Not sure if that distinction makes sense to someone else other than me.

But HLM's as they are called in France (housing at moderated rents or subsidised housing) are spread out throughout all of the Greater Paris region (and that of other urban centers), not just far from Paris-proper. This is because Greater Paris is subdivided into small jurisdictions with their own mayor (arrondissements inside Paris and communes or municipalities outside Paris-proper). These are fined if they do not dedicate a certain number of their housing units (or space?) to social housing. It is known for well-to-do suburban jurisdictions and Parisian arrondissements such as those in the more wealthy west side to just pay the fine rather than fullfill that national requirement. However, many others do try to maintain "the number" and as a result you find subsidised housing throughout most of Paris + suburbs, including the suburban municipalities immediately outside the Paris ring road. Many are inside Paris, too. Many are walking distance to the gates of Paris or to Metro stations where you can just use the normal, less expensive Metro tickets vs the Zone-sensitive tarifs of the RER. However, it is true that many huge housing projects exist further out, even in the distant suburbs, where more land was available in the late 50s and throughout the 60s. It is these where more segregation probably occurs because surrounding those big housing projects are single-family, middle-class-ish or upscale, suburban neighorhoods so those two worlds probably mix less. So if you look at Paris on Google Maps you will see the ugly 50s/60s/70s concrete monstrosities quite well distributed throughout the Greater Paris region, often as big, discrete clusters.
Thats the pattern we're seeing in many of the largest US cities also, the lower income & poor are being pushed out to the metropolitan fringes as the central cities become more gentrified.

Not so much to public housing projects, but to other aging apartment complexes or other private housing.

The result is often longer commutes by auto or public transit & greater isolation from employment centers.
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Old August 24th, 2009, 02:16 AM   #458
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The Ickes homes



Cabrini Green


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Old August 27th, 2009, 01:39 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by intensivecarebear View Post
Um let's see, because California is an expensive state to live in, especially the Bay Area and L.A region. People are moving out of California because they're looking for more affordable housing, not because they want to segregate themselves from the scary poor people. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with that statement.

Well you mentioned middle class flight to the suburbs, and I explained that it was a phenomenon that began for the most part in the 1950s, and that the difficult racial climate and social policies had a lot to do with it.

Not true. I think I recall arguing with you once before, but I feel the need for others sake to correct your inaccurate theories about other peoples reality.

People flee crime. You live in a neighborhood for years, people start getting robbed. Walking down the street, taking the groceries indoors, etc.
When there's zero crime, even the littlest things become big news.
Things start to change.
Stores start getting held up, rules get put in place, hooligans start roaming, people stop going outside. Those who can start leaving.
Somewhere between here and when people get shot it's hard to sell the house. They join public subsidy programs and rent out to hoodlums.
Everyone leaves. Blocks and blocks of houses now say "For Sale" in front of most all of them. The people who rent aren't really working, and are out partying all night and day keeping up those who didn't leave yet and still work.

No one stays in a neighborhood with crime, gangs, or unsavorary neighbors keeping you up all hours of the night. All this makes me wonder about the direction of Europe. How did the transition in some districts move to the "no-go" zones?

Some people leave places like california because that state is running itself out of business. Move to a suburb for taxes and better schools. But what makes those schools better? Culture of crime is always the final straw and the big motivator. I think the millions of displaced refugees in this country know the facts, and it doesn't need some type of academic theories to justify the poor excuse of pulling the race card. And if the people who fled Hurricane Katrina are called refugees, then everyone else is too.

And I'd like to thank the poster who posted the Chicago videos above my post.
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Old September 4th, 2009, 02:33 AM   #460
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