Liverpool WHS access?

[sloyne]

Liverpool is UNESCO's latest World Heritage Site and as such should be accessible, through easy access, to the whole world. Lets just look at just how accessible Liverpool is; NO access from it's nations major air gateway, London Heathrow; NO access by ocean cruise liner, passengers having to tender ashore from mid river; Limited access by train from it's capital city; Limited access by road, through congestion on the motorways; Good access by ferry service from Ireland and the Isle of Man.

Apart from attractions, a tourist destination, above all else, needs access. There is no point in inviting people to come and see what you have if they can't get to you. Todays tourists want as seamless and hassel free a journey as possible. From anywhere in the world, except from those European cities with a direct link to Liverpool John Lennon Airport, the City of Liverpool is one of the most isolated major cities anywhere. I know for a fact that because of the above, Liverpool is a very hard sell to North American tourists and most cruise pax. Elderly cruise pax (the majority on board) want to step off the ship onto terra Firma not onto a tender, no matter how big that vessel might be. Inter-continental air pax, after flying for many hours across ocean and continents, don't want to travel by bus/subway/train to get a connecting flight.

The amount of jobs and investment lost to Liverpool through it's inept political and bureaucratic leadership is nothing short of criminal. IMO.

[General Zod]

Sloyne, with regards to Liverpool's airport (I still call it Speke) how large can it be expanded to ? As in physical size and economically given that a large international airport is just down the road. Liverpool can't compete with Manchester airport. Can Liverpool handle trans atlantic/international flights ? All flights seem to be to small budget flight planes boarded on the run way rather than through a terminal link.

[John Matrix 1985]

You do not seem to like our leaders very much Sloyne, especially Mr S. who you have had run ins with in the past but you are right, your post highlights their lack of ambition.

Liverpool is very isolated and if it wasn't for the budget airlines at JLA there would be less and less people coming here.

I've travelled to quite a few places throughout the world in the last few years and always been amazed at how simple the access is using public transport, yet it seems such a hassle to get to Liverpool. I'd be put off going somewhere if I couldnt fly there direct and had a long journey.

Problem with American tourists is that you can't get a flight to Liverpool from the US as we only have a small airport which handles European flights. When the yanks come here their major destination is London, then maybe Edinburgh and then they will go off and "do europe", a few will go out of their way if they are big Beatles fans but thats it.

Sloyne, Do you think that there is a sustainable market for a Liverpool - NY/Boston/Washington DC airlink, given that Manchester already has the majority of these links?
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[sloyne]

Originally Posted by General Zod

Sloyne, with regards to Liverpool's airport how large can it be expanded to ?

Almost unlimited. Liverpool (Speke) has room for three more runways in the Mersey with at least one terminal between each runway seperation. That would mean at least four terminals.

Originally Posted by General Zod

As in physical size and economically given that a large international airport is just down the road. Liverpool can't compete with Manchester airport. Can Liverpool handle trans atlantic/international flights ? All flights seem to be to small budget flight planes boarded on the run way rather than through a terminal link.

Liverpool doesn't need to expand to a full international airport, Liverpool JLA desperately needs a link with Heathrow. Manchester is, and contrary to what some people think, a very busy regional airport with very limited inter-continental flights. This is not to denigrate Manchester as it does a adequate job, for Manchester, it is of course Manchesters airport. The vast majority of trans-continental pax arrive at Heathrow, they then tranfer to a domestic flight to Manchester, Newcastle, Derby, Middlesbrough, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast et al. Liverpool is very conspiciuos in it's absence from the information boards at Heathrow. I would venture that 95 out of every 100 Liverpool originating/destined passengers who wish to travel intercontinental will have to travel to London Heathrow, most times via Manchester.

Liverpool can handle any flights from any part of the world and all but the heavyest flights can take off from the airport. A starter strip is all that's required for take-off of even the heavyest laden aircraft. But, and as I said above, Liverpool needs to concentrate on getting a Heathrow link. Getting such a link will a uphill battle for Peel and I fear, to big a fight for the DP&Echo's liking, but with Globalisation of business and if Liverpool wan't to attract inward investment and not lose those company that call Liverpool home, then it desperately needs that Heathrow link.

[General Zod]

Totally agree with you on the front that we need a London link. I would use the argument to central government that if they backed the COC award then they should help push through for a flight link recomending visitors to come to our city. Also, since Liverpool is seen as surviving on public money to a degree then a flight link with the capital would stimulate some ecconomic growth. Also, I would like to get to London for a fair price. It's more expensive to get to London on the train than it is to fly to different countries. As Matrix said, tourists are put off if they have to faf around with extra trains and buses when they leave the airport. International tourists feel comfortable and attracted to the idea of flying into the country, getting a taxi to their hotel and then wandering around the city at their leisure.

[sloyne]

Originally Posted by John Matrix 1985

Problem with American tourists is that you can't get a flight to Liverpool from the US as we only have a small airport which handles European flights.
Sloyne, Do you think that there is a sustainable market for a Liverpool - NY/Boston/Washington DC airlink, given that Manchester already has the majority of these links?
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Not just American tourists John, but all tourists. If you wish to go to Disneyworld in Orlando, i'm sure you wouldn't want to fly to Miami then connect with a flight to Sanford then take a bus to Orlando. If you couldn't fly direct to Orlando you would want the most direct route with the least amount of connections enroute. I am not advocating Liverpool becoming a full international airport and competing with Manchester but, it is imperative that Liverpool, have a connection with Heathrow.

Yes, Liverpool can sustain flights from New York, Miami and Toronto. I know the market is there, for at least four flights a week, but it is a big world out there and there are other markets, otherr than North America, that may be intetrested in Liverpool. India for example, has the largest, almost 300 million, middle-class (defined by having enough disposable income to travel) which can be tapped. This is a figure larger than the total population of the USA., and China's middle class is growing rapidly. All these people need to plus through Heathrow then on to Manchester before taking ground transport to Liverpool. Not good enough I'm afraid.

[General Zod]

Yep, there is the far east Market. Now is the time to push for these links. Liverpool has been recomended by the chinese themselves to their citizens that Liverpool is one of the best British city's to visit. As you say Sloyne, you have to fart around with buses etc to get here. When people fly to the otherside of the world they are not very confident in reading bus time tables and understanding the local train systems. I am talking the average person here who has one trip a year or two, the well travelled and adventurous are in a minority. They would be happy just to hop on two planes that are inclusive in the flight ticket deal and get to their destination hassle free. Infastructure like that brings in the tourists, businessmen and investment. The more people see Liverpool the better. Hopefully by 2008 this will be in place, all our buildings will be built and all the old dirty ones scrubbed clean.

[Paul D]

Hopefully by 2008 this will be in place, all our buildings will be built and all the old dirty ones scrubbed clean.

If only....

[John Matrix 1985]

Interesting points Sloyne. When I said about Americans, the majority I've met over here are just here to see London, possibly scotchland then off to Paris, Rome and Amsterdam. We could always flog ourselves saying use Liverpool as a base/start off point & you can get to these places.

Is the Liverpool to Stansted link still on?

I was annoyed when I came back from Australia that I could not get to Liverpool from Heathrow, yet Newcastle, Aberdeen, Bristol & Birmingham seem to have regular services yet I had to fly back to Manchester rather than my own city.

I can remember in Euro 96 and while the tournament was on there were cheap holidays to Florida, one person i know went for something ridiculous like 250 quid. So obviously Liverpool can handle these long haul routes.

China is an interesting possibility with the city's Chinese links. India is another good possibility although I wasnt keen on the people when I went!

I'm sure one or two weekly flights to NYC would be good and be competitive enough to survive. In my experience a lot of people have bought Ryanair/Easyjet tickets simply because they go from Liverpool, even if they have been to the likes of Barcelona/Madrid before. They just buy them because of the convenience of it and they don't have to hike to Manchester. Imagine the interest and enthusiasm a link to NYC would generate.

You are completely right about the council, these are the things that they should be actively pursuing. You do know your stuff Sloyne, pity the clowns of LCC don't.

[Gareth]

You can fly from Toronto to Exeter. Go figure!

[Accura4Matalan]

I agree with Sloyne's points. At the moment, Preston has better access than Liverpool.
Thats the problem with being on an estaury like that.

Originally Posted by Sloyne

Limited access by road, through congestion on the motorways

Road access from the motorways is probably as good as it can be. Although Liverpool isnt actually on the M6, both the M58 and M62 are well signposted as being the best route into Liverpool. Congestionwise, the M58 and M62 arnt too bad. I've never heard of them much in the congestion news and I've never seen queues on them either.
http://www.trafficengland.com/map/br...165&emap.y=225
Look at all that congestion on Preston's motorways

[General Zod]

Just been faffing around on the internet on all sites. Concorde landed here in 1979 ! Whoooo ! I still point at aeroplanes.

Think we are all in agreement with the London link. Can anyone think of any other transport infastructure that needs to be sorted out ? There is the ongoing issue with the cruiser liner terminal and we know they are widening edge lane. What's people's views on Lime Street ? Not so much the regeneration of the gateway concourse and the tower/towers but the quality of trains passing through and their price and availability of running ?

[Steve C]

There's no high speed link to Manc. Leeds or Newcastle from Liverpool.

Virgin could make a killing off a transpennine route, trouble is in some parts of the pennines there's only 1 west bound track and 1 east bound track. At the moment the only option is the painfully slow, overcrowded, unreliable and expensive first service.

To get to a lot of places from Liverpool, you need to change at Manchester...

As for the airport, what is the point in being twin Cities with Shanghai if you can't get there ?! There's been recent talk of a link with New York which would be great aswell. A lot of the european destinations are ok, but most of them are more suitable as leisure destinations rather than business.

[Accura4Matalan]

Merseyrail needs refurbishing. Trams need funding. Buses need upgrading.

[sloyne]

Originally Posted by Steve C

To get to a lot of places from Liverpool, you need to change at Manchester....

This is so true. Liverpool is a virtual suburb of Manchester. I was reading the St. Petersburg Times last spring and British Airways had a full page add for flights to the "HOME OF THE BEATLES" from Tampa airport, but when you read the add carefully the trip was routed through Heathrow and Manchester. So, obviously, Liverpool (and/or the Beatles) sells and is worthy of a full page add by BA.

[Doug Roberts]

Don't forget Japan, even Yoko said that there is desire there to visit Liverpool, again in total agreement with Sloyne, no easy access.

[Accura4Matalan]

One step at a time!

[Martin S]

Originally Posted by Doug Roberts

Don't forget Japan, even Yoko said that there is desire there to visit Liverpool, again in total agreement with Sloyne, no easy access.

Mind you, Yoko has spent the last three decades living in New York. She probably knows as much about modern Japan as Cilla Black knows about modern Liverpool.

[Pietari]

As far as I know Liverpool Airport holds the worlds record for the most `Concord` landings and take offs in the one day - when two concords visited on the same day.

(Three landings and take offs per craft.)
(If not two take offs and landings per craft....)

Friends of Liverpool Airport often organised special `Concord` visits to Liverpool amonst other organisations including `annual` special trips for the `Liverpool Grand National`

Many was the time I saw `Condord(e)` flying down "Cherry Lane" L4.

We used to have the `Liverpool Air Show` and I remember a "Delta wing" also flying along "Cherry Lane" L4.