Docklands Light Railway

[cle]

Originally Posted by Rational Plan

But a direct Waterloo Kings Cross is the missing link in direct tube links

This is oft-peddled, but it's bloody easy:

Victoria line southbound to Oxford Circus, about 5 mins. Cross platform to Bakerloo southbound to Waterloo - about 6-7 mins.

Or:

Victoria line southbound to Vauxhall. Use that if possible - over 50% of trains from Waterloo stop there.

There are other one change options, like via Euston, or Leicester Square, or Bank, or London Bridge. But the first one is simple and would be fine with baggage.

[kleinhond]

Originally Posted by stimarco

I suspect this is the reason why the Bakerloo extension via Catford is currently the favourite.

Lewisham station itself may be a busy junction, but it's a bloody awful one, with many services forced to use the bypass viaduct that avoids the station completely. Its location means it has little scope for improvement, as it's right next to the confluence of two rivers and two arterial roads. Short of a major rebuilding and realignment of that station, there's not a hell of a lot more you can do with it.

Catford / Catford Bridge and Forest Hill therefore have distinct advantages: services from the Chatham and Dartford lines can still change to the DLR at Lewisham (or Woolwich, in some cases), while those on the Hayes, Catford Loop and Brighton (to London Bridge) lines can change at Catford or Forest Hill. I'd expect to see some services terminating at a new Lewisham DLR station (probably with a bay platform) to help soak up some of the Dartford and Chatham traffic, but if the Bakerloo is also constructed, this means the Hayes branch is taken completely off the Network Rail map, freeing up more slots to increase Lewisham's existing heavy rail services to the City and West End, so it's still a net gain.

I used to be in favour of running the Bakerloo via Lewisham, but the more I think about it, the less I'm convinced this is a viable option unless the rail infrastructure in and around Lewisham is substantially remodelled at vast expense. It's feasible, but it would effectively kill the present Lewisham Gateway regeneration project and mean restarting it from scratch.

The Catford option still removes the Hayes services from equation, so many more services can stop at Lewisham and benefit from the DLR connection there. And it also means Lewisham can still accommodate a completely new line (or a branch from the Bakerloo) in about 20-40 years' time.

If the Catford-Hayes option is now the favourite, what does this mean in terms of the route from E&C to Catford?

[stimarco]

Originally Posted by kleinhond

If the Catford-Hayes option is now the favourite, what does this mean in terms of the route from E&C to Catford?

The current trend in transport planning is to avoid unnecessary duplication, but I suspect some is going to be unavoidable given the nature of the network in that part of London. I think the most likely candidates are:

• Camberwell - Peckham Rye - Honor Oak Park - Catford. ("Peckham" route).
  This seems the most popular alignment when looking at TfL's plans. Interfaces with the Catford Loop and DLR at Catford, ELL at Honor Oak Park, and with ELL Phase 2 (amongst others) at Peckham Rye.
  
• Old Kent Road - Peckham - Brockley - Catford. ("Old Kent Road" route.)
  This gives connections with Hayes, Catford Loop, DLR (extended to Catford), the ELL at Brockley (which desperately needs better connections), and the ELL Phase 2 extension at an interchange on Queen's Road (which would likely get an entrance on the Old Kent Road). From there, it's up the OKR before heading west to E&C. This bypasses Camberwell.

Either one would have excellent benefits.

An alternative might be to 'do a Northern Line' on the Bakerloo and give it two branches both north and south of the Thames.

South of the Thames, a branch could diverge at Camberwell, heading straight down through Denmark Hill to Herne Hill, after which it would take over the stopping services on the Chatham line to Orpington.

The latter would either use new tunnels with stations in better locations, or, more cheaply, by simply taking over most of the existing route and diverting the fast trains into station-less tunnels for most of the shared part of the route. (You can't just take over half the four-track section south of Shortlands as the Catford Loop services need to use it too.) This releases capacity at Victoria for other services, as the Orpington services no longer need to terminate there.

(There are a number of possibilities for a second Bakerloo branch north of the Thames, so I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.)

[Jon10]

Tell us, tell us.

[tg1980]

Originally Posted by cle

This is oft-peddled, but it's bloody easy:

Victoria line southbound to Oxford Circus, about 5 mins. Cross platform to Bakerloo southbound to Waterloo - about 6-7 mins.

Or:

Victoria line southbound to Vauxhall. Use that if possible - over 50% of trains from Waterloo stop there.

There are other one change options, like via Euston, or Leicester Square, or Bank, or London Bridge. But the first one is simple and would be fine with baggage.

Yes it is easy but . . . the problem is for the passengers who use the service infrequently but who wish to travel from somewhere like Hampshire or Surrey to the Eurostar/ECML. A large proportion of them will be unfamiliar with the tube enough to rule out going via Oxford Circus. it looks further on the map to the unfamiliar traveller. And "cross platform change" is hardly everyday language.

Plus it is the longer distance trains that will have a higher proportion of passengers unfamiliar with the intricacies of the tube and will also be the trains that won't stop at Vauxhall.

[stimarco]

Originally Posted by tg1980

Yes it is easy but . . . the problem is for the passengers who use the service infrequently but who wish to travel from somewhere like Hampshire or Surrey to the Eurostar/ECML. A large proportion of them will be unfamiliar with the tube enough to rule out going via Oxford Circus.

Education-focused PR and marketing seems the most obvious solution for this than building a brand new railway in tunnel.

[cle]

Exactly - they already have some of those signs dotted around the tube about how best to get to mainline stations.

If they had a big Waterloo only one at Kings Cross and vice versa saying go via Oxford Circus, that'd be simple enough.

[Metroguy78]

Does anyone know if there are plants at Canning town to have an information sign that will tell you which DLR platform to go to when leaving the Jubilee line?

When the Stratford international route is opened will I go up or down to get the next Beckton or Woolwich service?

[sotonsi]

They really ought to widen that top island at Canning Town so it has access to both lower islands - it's really not a good interchange between the two DLR branches.

[Metroguy78]

exactly what i am thinking sotonsi. I will get used to the timetable and know when the next train is due to Beckton but for a few days it will be try both and see which platform has which service.

I hope that they have some sort of screen on the basement level to tell people which platform to go on when going through the bottom gates.

[bazza667]

Originally Posted by tg1980

Yes it is easy but . . . the problem is for the passengers who use the service infrequently but who wish to travel from somewhere like Hampshire or Surrey to the Eurostar/ECML. A large proportion of them will be unfamiliar with the tube enough to rule out going via Oxford Circus. it looks further on the map to the unfamiliar traveller. And "cross platform change" is hardly everyday language.

Plus it is the longer distance trains that will have a higher proportion of passengers unfamiliar with the intricacies of the tube and will also be the trains that won't stop at Vauxhall.

TFL have some excellent information to help here: http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...T2?language=en

[flare]

Originally Posted by cle

Exactly - they already have some of those signs dotted around the tube about how best to get to mainline stations.

If they had a big Waterloo only one at Kings Cross and vice versa saying go via Oxford Circus, that'd be simple enough.

At weekends, especially when events are on using one of the stations (e.g. Ascot, Hampton Court Flower Show) they hand out leaflets at Kings Cross saying the best way to get to Waterloo.

[tg1980]

Originally Posted by stimarco

Education-focused PR and marketing seems the most obvious solution for this than building a brand new railway in tunnel.

I wasn't actually suggesting that this alone was justification for building a direct multi billion pound link . . .

[tg1980]

There doesn't seem to have been any press for this rather useful piece of albeit minor works, but . . .

they are installing a second new staircase at Shadwell DLR station next to the existing one. The existing one has become very inadequate, especially since the ELL re-opened. It should prove a welcome improvement to the station.

[kleinhond]

Originally Posted by stimarco

The current trend in transport planning is to avoid unnecessary duplication, but I suspect some is going to be unavoidable given the nature of the network in that part of London. I think the most likely candidates are:

• Camberwell - Peckham Rye - Honor Oak Park - Catford. ("Peckham" route).
  This seems the most popular alignment when looking at TfL's plans. Interfaces with the Catford Loop and DLR at Catford, ELL at Honor Oak Park, and with ELL Phase 2 (amongst others) at Peckham Rye.
  
• Old Kent Road - Peckham - Brockley - Catford. ("Old Kent Road" route.)
  This gives connections with Hayes, Catford Loop, DLR (extended to Catford), the ELL at Brockley (which desperately needs better connections), and the ELL Phase 2 extension at an interchange on Queen's Road (which would likely get an entrance on the Old Kent Road). From there, it's up the OKR before heading west to E&C. This bypasses Camberwell.

Either one would have excellent benefits.

An alternative might be to 'do a Northern Line' on the Bakerloo and give it two branches both north and south of the Thames.

South of the Thames, a branch could diverge at Camberwell, heading straight down through Denmark Hill to Herne Hill, after which it would take over the stopping services on the Chatham line to Orpington.

The latter would either use new tunnels with stations in better locations, or, more cheaply, by simply taking over most of the existing route and diverting the fast trains into station-less tunnels for most of the shared part of the route. (You can't just take over half the four-track section south of Shortlands as the Catford Loop services need to use it too.) This releases capacity at Victoria for other services, as the Orpington services no longer need to terminate there.

(There are a number of possibilities for a second Bakerloo branch north of the Thames, so I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.)

This post has been picked up at the South East Central forum for SE London and has been dismissed somewhat. Confusing.

http://www.southeastcentral.co.uk/th...red-route.513/

[Bart_LCY]

Found on youtube:

DLR: New branch between Stratford International and Canning Town

[DarJoLe]

Interesting this now completes the DLR network with no new branches in planning.

Happy 25 years DLR!

[ill tonkso]

The line opened today. Another line for London, split the DLR into lines already!

[CharlieP]

Originally Posted by DarJoLe

Interesting this now completes the DLR network with no new branches in planning.

Um...

http://developments.dlr.co.uk/curren...ions/dagenham/

[DarJoLe]

Originally Posted by CharlieP

Um...

http://developments.dlr.co.uk/curren...ions/dagenham/

Our current Mayor cancelled that long ago. No extensions are in planning at the moment, rendering the network complete.