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Old November 24th, 2006, 01:18 PM   #161
hkskyline
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Historic significance should be discussed in another thread. I thought we're talking about historic cities here, which I'd think are very old cities.
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Old November 24th, 2006, 11:30 PM   #162
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Jerusalem
Roma
Athens
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Old November 25th, 2006, 01:05 AM   #163
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i cant decide between Pheonix, AZ or Las Vegas.

serious though:

Rome, London, Paris, ugh.. all of Europe.

Jersualem? and Chinese cities because China is the oldest continuous empire.
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Old November 25th, 2006, 04:03 AM   #164
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Sorry but Oriental cities are very old, very big, very whatever but the global culture is totally western and so the western cities are the ones with the importance in World History.

West invented pretty much everything and, maybe even more important, took their inventions to all the world, all continents - western culture is everywhere (including China): Stock markets, Science, Trains, Coca cola, gunpowder, building, flights, cars, TVs, languages - english spanish portuguese french, Medicins, surgery, architecture, engineering, the pill, etc etc

The inverse is not true and chinese culture did nothing of this and have no role in most of Europe, America, Africa, etc. The same aplies for India, whose roots for european cultures are far to far away and have nothing to do with it, and for Amerindian cultures or african cultures. All the world is becoming Europe and America which is just another Europe.


So for me the most historic cities are...

Important for their role in Classical times and shaping Western civilization, culture, philosophy, politics, religion:
Babylon, Ur, Alexandria
Jerusalem
Athens
Tiro
Rome
Mecca
Istambul

Important in Middle Ages/Renaissance - appearance of science and Europe spreading its culture through all the world, empires:
Lisbon
Toledo/Madrid/Seville
Rome, Genova, Firenze, Milano, Venice, others in Italy
Amsterdam
Paris
London

XVIII-XIX - enlightment, french invasions, politics, empires, science development, medicine:
Paris
London
Viena
Berlin/Munich
Moscow

XX - world wars, space conquest, end of colonial empires, science, TV, internet, cars, flights, skyscrapers, sports,...:
NYC, Washington DC
Berlin
London
Moscow
Tokyo
Paris

Last edited by fernao; November 25th, 2006 at 04:10 AM.
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Old November 25th, 2006, 04:30 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernao View Post
Sorry but Oriental cities are very old, very big, very whatever but the global culture is totally western and so the western cities are the ones with the importance in World History.

West invented pretty much everything and, maybe even more important, took their inventions to all the world, all continents - western culture is everywhere (including China): Stock markets, Science, Trains, Coca cola, gunpowder, building, flights, cars, TVs, languages - english spanish portuguese french, Medicins, surgery, architecture, engineering, the pill, etc etc

The inverse is not true and chinese culture did nothing of this and have no role in most of Europe, America, Africa, etc. The same aplies for India, whose roots for european cultures are far to far away and have nothing to do with it, and for Amerindian cultures or african cultures. All the world is becoming Europe and America which is just another Europe.


So for me the most historic cities are...

Important for their role in Classical times and shaping Western civilization, culture, philosophy, politics, religion:
Babylon, Ur, Alexandria
Jerusalem
Athens
Tiro
Rome
Mecca
Istambul

Important in Middle Ages/Renaissance - appearance of science and Europe spreading its culture through all the world, empires:
Lisbon
Toledo/Madrid/Seville
Rome, Genova, Firenze, Milano, Venice, others in Italy
Amsterdam
Paris
London

XVIII-XIX - enlightment, french invasions, politics, empires, science development, medicine:
Paris
London
Viena
Berlin/Munich
Moscow

XX - world wars, space conquest, end of colonial empires, science, TV, internet, cars, flights, skyscrapers, sports,...:
NYC, Washington DC
Berlin
London
Moscow
Tokyo
Paris
Great post - I completely agree
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Old November 25th, 2006, 03:53 PM   #166
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Sadly much of historical London disappeared with the Blitz.
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Old November 25th, 2006, 04:12 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gronier View Post
Sadly much of historical London disappeared with the Blitz.
I think the Germans fared much worse from WW2. Large swaths of Europe lost of a lot of historic architecture. Dresden is trying to rebuild it from scratch.
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Old November 25th, 2006, 04:58 PM   #168
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I think it's important to explain the meaning of historic city:i.e. we know that most of the european cities have ruins of the roman times but that doesn't mean they are historic but in any case they are ancient cities founded by the romans.An historic city is a city which was the center of the world in its time and that influenced all modern world shaping art,culture, philosophy, politics,jurisprudence,religion etc.

IMO:

Rome (center of roman civlization,not only the capital of the roman empire;Renaissance and holy see)
Athens (It was not the center of Greece but there were lots of important places throughout the mediterranen sea such as southern Italy,greek islands,Turkey,middle east).
Jerusalem (Its importance in the developpement of the modern monoteistic religions).

Of course there were some cities which had got great importance in some periods,such as:

Middle Ages/Renaissance

Florence
Venice
Istanbul
Genoa
Pisa
Amsterdam
Paris

XVIII-XIX centuries

London
Paris
Vienna

XX century

New York
Tokyo
and the other cities which are the economic centers of the G7 countries:Frankfurt,London,Paris,Milan,Toronto.

XXI century

Shangai
Seoul
Mumbai
Sao Paulo
G7 cities
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Old November 25th, 2006, 07:42 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernao View Post
Sorry but Oriental cities are very old, very big, very whatever but the global culture is totally western and so the western cities are the ones with the importance in World History.

West invented pretty much everything and, maybe even more important, took their inventions to all the world, all continents - western culture is everywhere (including China): Stock markets, Science, Trains, Coca cola, gunpowder, building, flights, cars, TVs, languages - english spanish portuguese french, Medicins, surgery, architecture, engineering, the pill, etc etc

The inverse is not true and chinese culture did nothing of this and have no role in most of Europe, America, Africa, etc. The same aplies for India, whose roots for european cultures are far to far away and have nothing to do with it, and for Amerindian cultures or african cultures. All the world is becoming Europe and America which is just another Europe.


So for me the most historic cities are...

Important for their role in Classical times and shaping Western civilization, culture, philosophy, politics, religion:
Babylon, Ur, Alexandria
Jerusalem
Athens
Tiro
Rome
Mecca
Istambul

Important in Middle Ages/Renaissance - appearance of science and Europe spreading its culture through all the world, empires:
Lisbon
Toledo/Madrid/Seville
Rome, Genova, Firenze, Milano, Venice, others in Italy
Amsterdam
Paris
London

XVIII-XIX - enlightment, french invasions, politics, empires, science development, medicine:
Paris
London
Viena
Berlin/Munich
Moscow

XX - world wars, space conquest, end of colonial empires, science, TV, internet, cars, flights, skyscrapers, sports,...:
NYC, Washington DC
Berlin
London
Moscow
Tokyo
Paris
lol, the west didn't invent anything. Practically all fields of science, medicine, astronomy, mathematics, etc came from the muslims.
The so called rennaisance happend in Italy and Spain immediately after the west sacked the muslim civilisations in scicilly, and al andalus.

The western cities play practically no part in the heritage of civilisations.

for a start moscow comes from mosque on the vole. Most American city names come from the indigineous naming of the cities, such as
For Example Kentucky is supposedly named after an Indian word (Kain-tuck) that means dark and bloody ground The Turkish word Kan-tok means saturated with or full of blood. Another example is Chicago, named after an Indian word meaning a nasty, smelly, uncultivated land. The Turkish Chee-kahkahl has the same meaning. For more examples of place names

see http://www.muslimwikipedia.com/mw/in...mes_in_America
http://www.muslimwikipedia.com/mw/in...cans_and_Islam

and

http://www.muslimheritage.com/

I think some people need to read a little beyond the whitewashed history they get in the US
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Old November 25th, 2006, 07:53 PM   #170
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Jerusalem
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Old November 25th, 2006, 07:56 PM   #171
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It's true that the west didn't invent everything but almost all,and we know also that from the roman period european culture and way of life influenced all of the world.
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Old November 26th, 2006, 09:24 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saladin1970 View Post
lol, the west didn't invent anything. Practically all fields of science, medicine, astronomy, mathematics, etc came from the muslims.
The so called rennaisance happend in Italy and Spain immediately after the west sacked the muslim civilisations in scicilly, and al andalus.

The western cities play practically no part in the heritage of civilisations.
Thats ridiculous. You know I am very well aware that Europe was not among the leading regions of the world for about 1000 years between 500 AD and 1500 AD. But that does not make your claim anymore legitimated.

Do you have an idea what the word Renaissance mean? It does not mean copying islam wisdom, it means to revive the antic wisdom again. Much of this wisdom has been rercorded by Muslim empires and found its way back again. But also many new stuff and devlopements of the Muslim world took the same way. Yes indeed, thats how Europe could catch up again. And if we would have the year 1500 you claim would not sound that ridiculous.

But we write 2006 not 1500. Of course you still can claim that the inventions of the last 5 centuries were insignificant (and you can put yourself on your head, the largest share of the inventions that changed the world came from Europe in that time).

Quote:
for a start moscow comes from mosque on the vole. Most American city names come from the indigineous naming of the cities, such as
For Example Kentucky is supposedly named after an Indian word (Kain-tuck) that means dark and bloody ground The Turkish word Kan-tok means saturated with or full of blood. Another example is Chicago, named after an Indian word meaning a nasty, smelly, uncultivated land. The Turkish Chee-kahkahl has the same meaning. For more examples of place names
So what?
I live in Vienna, and would be pleased to see how my town is named after something muslim. As I would have fun to see how Paris, London, Rome, Warsaw, Berlin.... are.

Your lines do make as much sense as me asking you who built the Hagia Sophia.



What is whitewashed btw when claiming that antique Rome was a glorious example of civilisation?

To call the historic heritage in Europe "insignificant" is so free of every reallity it disqualifies itself. I dont say Europe is the sole place with great history. You find tons of places all over the world, no matter if in the Arabian world, in India, in China in central America, ... name it. But to say Europe is a blank space on the map of history is just, I repeat it, hilarious.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 02:22 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Thats ridiculous. You know I am very well aware that Europe was not among the leading regions of the world for about 1000 years between 500 AD and 1500 AD. But that does not make your claim anymore legitimated.

Do you have an idea what the word Renaissance mean? It does not mean copying islam wisdom, it means to revive the antic wisdom again. Much of this wisdom has been rercorded by Muslim empires and found its way back again. But also many new stuff and devlopements of the Muslim world took the same way. Yes indeed, thats how Europe could catch up again. And if we would have the year 1500 you claim would not sound that ridiculous.

But we write 2006 not 1500. Of course you still can claim that the inventions of the last 5 centuries were insignificant (and you can put yourself on your head, the largest share of the inventions that changed the world came from Europe in that time).



So what?
I live in Vienna, and would be pleased to see how my town is named after something muslim. As I would have fun to see how Paris, London, Rome, Warsaw, Berlin.... are.

Your lines do make as much sense as me asking you who built the Hagia Sophia.



What is whitewashed btw when claiming that antique Rome was a glorious example of civilisation?

To call the historic heritage in Europe "insignificant" is so free of every reallity it disqualifies itself. I dont say Europe is the sole place with great history. You find tons of places all over the world, no matter if in the Arabian world, in India, in China in central America, ... name it. But to say Europe is a blank space on the map of history is just, I repeat it, hilarious.


I have one question for you. If the renaissance was the regathering of the roman/hellenistic knowledge. What happened to it during the 500 years of the dark ages? Because the muslims got it from the byzantine empire, which just happened to be sat right next to western europe for all of those 500 years.
Why where the western europeans not able to walk right into the hundreds of schools and libraries and pick up these works just as the muslims did?

There was no renaissance, western advancements occured in two specific places, cordoba and scicilly, the very places that where sacked. There was no preservation of greek learning as it was always there. I am afraid you have been hoodwinked.
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Old December 24th, 2006, 06:40 PM   #174
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Old December 25th, 2006, 03:20 AM   #175
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Quote:
West invented pretty much everything and, maybe even more important, took their inventions to all the world, all continents - western culture is everywhere (including China): Stock markets, Science, Trains, Coca cola, gunpowder, building, flights, cars, TVs, languages - english spanish portuguese french, Medicins, surgery, architecture, engineering, the pill, etc etc
Yes, because we all know gunpowder was invented in Europe........
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Old December 25th, 2006, 08:37 AM   #176
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Cairo, Beijing,Rome, Athens, Istanbul/Constantinople,Jerusalem,Delhi and London come to mind
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Old December 25th, 2006, 12:56 PM   #177
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mecca , athens , cairo , paris
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Old December 25th, 2006, 12:56 PM   #178
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mecca , athens , cairo , paris , turky
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Old December 29th, 2006, 03:43 AM   #179
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Chang'an / Xian is a much older capital than Beijing. There are monuments, buildings and relics from thousands of years ago. Yet this city barely gets a mention.

Quote:
  • The site of the Han capital was located 5 km northwest of modern Xi'an. As the capital of the Western Han Dynasty, it was the political, economic and cultural center of China, the eastern terminus of the Silk Road, and a cosmopolitan metropolis comparable with the greatest cities of the contemporaneous Roman Empire.
  • Known as one of the most important cities in Chinese history, Xi'an is listed as one of the Four Great Ancient Capitals of China because it has been the capital of 13 dynasties, including the Zhou, Qin, Han, and Tang. Xi'an is also the eastern end of the Silk Road. The city has more than 3,100 years of history.
  • Chang'an in the Tang Dynasty (618 - 917) was, with Constantinople (Istanbul) and Baghdad, one of the largest cities of the world at that time. The Japanese in 794 built their ancient capital, Heian-Kyo or Kyoto, modelled after the Tang Dynasty capital, Chang'an. As a result, the modern Kyoto reflects some characteristics of Tang Chang'an. Similarly, the Korean Silla dynasty modeled the layout of their capital of Gyeongju after the Tang capital.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi%27an
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27an

Xian City Walls (700 years old)


Big Goose Pagoda (1350 years old)


Small Goose Pagoda (1300 years old)


Great Mosque of Xian (1360 years old)


Qin Shi Huang Masoleum + Terra Cotta Warriors (2300 years old)


....
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Old January 2nd, 2007, 12:11 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybean View Post
Chang'an / Xian is a much older capital than Beijing. There are monuments, buildings and relics from thousands of years ago. Yet this city barely gets a mention.

....
I think people are mistaking Beijing to be China's only ancient capital since it is the current capital. The Forbidden City dates back to only the Ming Dynasty, which began about 600 years ago, while Xian was the capital for many dynasties before that. In fact, the Chinese civilization is historically centered along the Yellow River around Xian, but subsequent instability in the north resulted in the capital moving to Beijing. The Manchus that ruled China's last dynasty were from the northeast.
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