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Old August 24th, 2005, 08:58 PM   #21
Gatis
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This is far better than unorganised urban sprawl. Speaking about destruction of endemic plants here is demagogy.
Unfortunately you can't stop moving of people inside Amazonia, only totalitarian state can do this. Hope that Brasil is very far from this.
I have seen in New Zealand how primeval jungle and large cities can coexist. Hope that Brasil will master this art as soon as possible
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Old August 24th, 2005, 09:28 PM   #22
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Surely it is better that they are building up rather than out here?
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Old August 24th, 2005, 11:28 PM   #23
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^Well actually they do build out too hi-rises mean its a decent sized city but i still think its bad theyre building there its one of the most important places on earth to preserve with all the posibilities for its medical possibilities and the fact it provides a decent amount of the worlds oxygen. Brazil really needs to do its part to make sure that it doesnt disapear i mean cmon in florida we are preserving the everglades which consists of and ecosystem of alligators, insects, rodents,rednecks, and mangroves its fairly useless but yet we preserve it so Brazil should too and put heavy restrictions on current areas built and highly unlikely but abandon those cities and over time all that stuff could/might grow back.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 02:21 AM   #24
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Very nice to see something from Brazil's 2 most underrepresented large cities on the fourm. I will add some of them for them diagram, Manaus and Belem don't even have a single building listed!!!

Btw, strange title of the thread...
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Old August 25th, 2005, 03:08 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing
Inside the Amazonian Forest????? DAMNIT. This is a no-go!
this is sooooo bullshit.

1-The amazon is the size of Europe and it has like 16 million people at most. The same number of people living in netherlands.

2-The population in amazon area has not grown so much. New buildings mean better economy, not population growth. Better economy means less deforastation.

3- tall buildings means NO SPRAWLING. Much better have tall buildings in COMPACT DENSE cities inside the amazon than american style suburbs sprawling in area that should be FOREST.

4- go to google earth and look at both Manaus and Belém. They are not big sprawling cities despite their 2 million people populations.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 03:09 AM   #26
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1 more thing: people who live in cities dont deforastate... they dont have farms... etc. Better have urban populations inside a forest than poor rural population!
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Old August 25th, 2005, 03:17 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-275westcoastfl
^Well actually they do build out too hi-rises mean its a decent sized city but i still think its bad theyre building there its one of the most important places on earth to preserve with all the posibilities for its medical possibilities and the fact it provides a decent amount of the worlds oxygen. Brazil really needs to do its part to make sure that it doesnt disapear i mean cmon in florida we are preserving the everglades which consists of and ecosystem of alligators, insects, rodents,rednecks, and mangroves its fairly useless but yet we preserve it so Brazil should too and put heavy restrictions on current areas built and highly unlikely but abandon those cities and over time all that stuff could/might grow back.
hey pal, do you realize the nonsense? Its not as if Manaus and Belém were cities built in the 70s. Both are cities 2 centuries old already. Or more! They wont be abandoned just as Orlando wont be abandoned for the everglades to grow back.

Also, read what I said in previous responses, and decide if it doesnt makes sense: brazilian cities are not sprawled as american suburbs. They are dense and compact. Tall residential buildings mean they can be even more compact.

Btw, the everglades are BARELY being preserved. How do you dare to complain about Brasil? The everglades are being EATEN away by sprawling suburbs. If Brasil had american style suburbs, the area of Manaus and Belém would be 5 times larger. Or even more.

One more thing. You are complaing about TWO cities, both of which represent the majority of pop in each state, who are the capitals of the two largest brazilian states, each one much larger than TEXAS.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 03:19 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatis
This is far better than unorganised urban sprawl. Speaking about destruction of endemic plants here is demagogy.
Unfortunately you can't stop moving of people inside Amazonia, only totalitarian state can do this. Hope that Brasil is very far from this.
I have seen in New Zealand how primeval jungle and large cities can coexist. Hope that Brasil will master this art as soon as possible
we also hope pal. You are right building up is better than sprawl, when it comes about cities inside forests. The populations in these two cities also doesnt grow THAT much. There is very few internal immigration to those areas, cuz most brazilians wont like living in the rain forest 2500 km away from the main urban centers in the country.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 03:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriolus
When 50CENT says "buildings U.C. inside of the Amazonian Forest" I think some of you guys are imagining a patch in the depths of the tropical rainforest cleared especially to make way for a nice new skyscraper. Belem & Manaus are pre-existing cities and these projects are just part of the development of Belem & Manaus just like any other city. The environmental disaster that is the continuing destruction of the Amazon rainforest isn't the issue at hand here, even if economic growth reflected by the construction of these buildings contributes to it. Let's just appreciate these skyscrapers!

Personally I think there's some fantastic designs in there. I love the use of red in some of the Belem towers like Ilha de Creta & Rio Tâmisa. And I love the Future Flat in Manaus - I have a real thing for green glass For better or worse looks like Belem & Manaus are realy booming.



You are right. Most people in this thread seems to think these are cities built in the last 5 years just to destroy the amazon, instead of 200 yr old cities. The buildings are not built inside the forest, but inside the city! Nobody is clearing forest to build highrises! Gosh... some of these people dont stop to think!
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Old August 25th, 2005, 04:00 AM   #30
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here is an image of the amazon area of Brasil. You can see a line measure from GoogleEarth, to give you guys a better idea of the size of the area and of the two big states, Pará on the right and Amazonas on the left. Both are way bigger than Texas. And the red lines show the urban area of Manaus (capital of the left state) and Belém (capital of the right state)

Pará has 5 million inhabitants, in an area of 1.253.164,5 square kilometers!!! Thats 4 inhabitants per square kilometer.

Amazonas has 2 812 557 inhabitants in an area of 1 570 947 square kilometers! Thats less than 2 inhabitants per square kilometer!!!

For exemplification, France has 60 million inhabitants in an area of 674,843 square kilometers, about 111 inhabitants per sq kilometer! Texas has 20 million inhabitants in an area of about 692 square kilometers!!





MANAUS

Manaus was founded in 1669!!!!! So you guys see... its no new settlement!!!
Manaus has a pop of 1,6 million people, which is about 60% of the state pop. So you guys can see... most urbanization in this rainforest state is concentrated in ONLY ONE CITY which is VERY SMALL in area compared to similar sized american cities.



Belém was founded in 1616!!!!! So you see folks... BOTH CITIES ARE AT LEAST 350 YEARS OLD!!!
It has a population of 2 million people, about 50% of the state population
Another BIG city of small compact area holding almost all the population of a state the size of both Spain and France together!
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Old August 25th, 2005, 05:17 AM   #31
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...and if anybody complains about something, i gonna burn the forest.

RAW STUB CATCHING FIRE...RAW STUB CATCHING FIRE..RAW STUB CATCHING FIRE..
You dont gonna understand this...
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Old August 25th, 2005, 05:27 AM   #32
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are all the cities restricted from expanding anymore?
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Old August 25th, 2005, 06:10 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
hey pal, do you realize the nonsense? Its not as if Manaus and Belém were cities built in the 70s. Both are cities 2 centuries old already. Or more! They wont be abandoned just as Orlando wont be abandoned for the everglades to grow back.

Also, read what I said in previous responses, and decide if it doesnt makes sense: brazilian cities are not sprawled as american suburbs. They are dense and compact. Tall residential buildings mean they can be even more compact.

Btw, the everglades are BARELY being preserved. How do you dare to complain about Brasil? The everglades are being EATEN away by sprawling suburbs. If Brasil had american style suburbs, the area of Manaus and Belém would be 5 times larger. Or even more.

One more thing. You are complaing about TWO cities, both of which represent the majority of pop in each state, who are the capitals of the two largest brazilian states, each one much larger than TEXAS.
Of course orlando wont be abandoned to let the everglades grow back simply cause its hundreds of miles away and doesnt affect the everglades at all. And yes the everglades are protected its the reason for the hi-rise boom in miami and in the usa in order to build a property you need a permit in which you would tell the location and since the everglades is preserved and a national park it cant be built on in fact they are forcing some people who live on the border buy making them accept money for the property and trying to restore the everglades.

Also unlike the amazon the everglades doesnt have many important uses in fact its fairly useless but the amazon produces medicine and could possibly have cures for deadly sicknesses and produces a decent amount of the worlds oxygen . Sprawl whether american or not is still sprawl, its still cutting down some trees even to build a hi-rise. The fact is its still in one of earths most important natural areas and due to its huge importance it should be preserved.

And you only made one good point on how what i wrote was nonsense and the fact they were built 2 centuries ago cause back then people had no idea of the importance of the area when people first came to california people didnt know it had earthquakes and didnt understand them till the mid century. Brazil is a pretty developed country they relocated the countries capitol why not 2 state capitols.

Mostly i here you complain about american sprawl which i dont mind yes we do sprawl i like it better than a bunch of commie blocks and its a reason are country grows so fast people dream of having such homes they can get them here without being that rich. And for example Manuas does sprawl just which the first pic is an example but see how the houses are cramped next to each other thats why it hasnt sprawled out so much like an american city cause in america we have yards and wider roads.


the core looks fairly dense though.

I really dont care much for the environment and dont mind sprawl but in such an important area it should be considered and im sure the cities are better controlled than the farms in the area.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 06:41 AM   #34
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seriously, i have to write something....

first of all, I-275westcoastfl,

you say that the amazon produces a decent amount of the worlds oxygen, everybody knows that this is BS!!! Plants produces oxygen during the day, but they use it all during the night, they breathe!!!! So who thinks that the amazon is "the world's lungs" is wrong.

you said that brazil should relocate the states capitols....but...to where? both states are "all amazon"!!! And, 2 centuries ago, they were really important cities in Brazil, and they still are!! If we relocate them we would create 2 new big cities, cause Manaus and Belem would never stop to grow!!! History and politics are things that must be consider too!!!

And we are doing all we can to keep the amazon there, to preserve the forest, cause we know better than nobody that the jungle is really important....but honestly, we preserve a lot.....USA was once full of woods and fields....everywhere in the world was like this.....unfortunatly the world is dying and we all know that....

I Think is really funny how people see the amazon and Brazil, people all over the world destroyed most of the forests, and we preserved it, and now, everyones eyes are turned to the amazon.....i really think is unfair....

Manaus and Belem are quite small comparing to the amazons size.... The states are huge, and they need cities!!!

I dont know if I made it clear....i have nothing against you guys, against anything...i just thing you all got the wrong image of it since the beggining!!!
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Old August 25th, 2005, 06:41 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-275westcoastfl
Sprawl whether american or not is still sprawl, its still cutting down some trees even to build a hi-rise. The fact is its still in one of earths most important natural areas and due to its huge importance it should be preserved.
My english is not very good but i'll try:

Belém has nowhere to grow. So the new highrises aren't built in the forest, they're built where there used to be houses (sometimes historic houses ). But no trees are cut.
In Manaus things are a little different, the city is expanding over the forest, but it's almost insignificant. The deforastation problem is mainly related to the expansion of soya crops and cattle ranches, not to urban sprawling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I-275westcoastfl
Brazil is a pretty developed country they relocated the countries capitol why not 2 state capitols.
Building a new capital for Pará (my state) and Amazonas would mean much more deforastation. I don't understand how it could be good.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 06:47 AM   #36
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Perhaps an overly long series of posts, but AcesHigh is right. The Amazon is gigantic, and the vast majority of the deforestation has been the result of slash-and-burn agriculture and lumber harvesting. Even if these cities were to grow rapidly, the environmental impact would be very minimal compared to the amount of damage done by the agriculture and timber industries.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 06:48 AM   #37
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Another thing, the USA polute more than any other country...

its really insane...and it relutes to sign the Kyotos threaty......
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Old August 25th, 2005, 06:48 AM   #38
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A certain amount of eco-garbage here. Let me mention that the Free Zone of Manaus, which starting in the 1970´s fostered the growth of electronics and motorbike assembly lines in that city, actually acted against deforestation by employing poor people from the region who instead of sweeping the floor of some factory would have to make a living out of growing crops or cattle in the countryside, destroying the jungle. Even eco-morons such as Greenpeace commend the Free Zone as an environmentally protective project.

It´s precisely industrial and technical develpment that protects the forest as opposed to no development. All deforestation comes from stunned human and industrial development.

Besides if rainforests ever disappear, the Amazon will be the last one. Heavily inhabited forest regions such as West Africa and Indonesia will be a desert in no time.

People act as if the Amazon is the only forest in the world, while they should be looking at their own backyard. Smaller ecosystems such as the everglades, Alaskan forests, European and Asian ecosystems contain as much as if not more wealth than the Amazon; the Amazon is bigger but it´s diversity/km2 ratio is smaller than in most ecosystems, there are many species going extinct in North America right now that might also contain the cure for whatever disease.

It´s poverty and underdevelopment that causes most environmental damage. The worst man-caused extinctions happened before the rise of civilization 6,000 years ago. The mammoth, the sabre tooth, the American horse, the giant sloth, the european lion, the european gnu, the Australian megafauna, countless birds, thousands of plants, the desertification of the Middle East all happened centuries ago, due to the low productivity of pre-industrial peoples.

Taking into account the current size of world population, we can safely say that we live in the most environmentally friendly period of human history since 10,000BC, in terms of damage per inhabitant. The issue is that there are too many people on earth, and too little development.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 06:55 AM   #39
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And - COME OOOON!!!!!!!! - those high rises in Belém and Manaus will cause absolutely no harm whatsoever to a single twig of jungle. Such eco-babble. This thread shows why the world has so much trouble with environmental problems, people are just too unprepared to discuss it.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 07:19 AM   #40
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MOPC, the voice of reason.
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