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Old April 27th, 2006, 03:21 PM   #121
sloyne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-MK
Here is post-Panamax in France:
Post-Panamax in France
The MSC Diego, at 40,000 tons and a capacity of 4000 TEU's is not considered a post Panamax vessel. In fact I have seen this vessel on the Mississippi at the port of New Orleans and I think the only port on the Gulf with any capability close to handling post Panamax ships is Gaveston. I think the reporter took a little licence here.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 03:23 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sloyne
Hope you're right but, isn't Southampton, Felixstowe and Clydeport also asking for a 'Harbour Revision' for the same purpose. I think I read somewhere that the succesful applicant would be at the expense of it's rivals.
Anyone can have post-Panamax facilities. But the report I linked to highlights the transport distribution costs of containers to further inland will curtail their growth. They have to operate from a few large ports and be as fully loaded as possible on all voyages. This means increased transportation costs to get the containers to the few large ports over land.

This is where Liverpool scores. On the right side of the country - not that that makes a big difference in total operating costs at sea. Transporting 8,000 containers (that is what they will hold) an extra 100 miles by road (one truck per container) will cost as much as an Atlantic crossing, or maybe more - and road fuel is rising. Like it costs more for the taxi fare to and from the airport than the flight to Spain.

Sizes
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Old April 27th, 2006, 03:35 PM   #123
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Yes MK, I agree and being a deep-sea Post-Panamax port will also increase reefer traffic between Liverpool other Irish sea ports and continental ports. Lets hope Liverpool can pull it off.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 03:51 PM   #124
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Please, John MK , give up your vendetta against Felixstowe!!! Look at the sailings list below, are any of those ports destinations suited for Liverpool?Is Felixstowe really a RIVAL to Liverpool?????

Arrival
Date & Time Vessel Name Gross Tonnage Overall Length Last Port Next Port Ship's Agent
26/04/06 23:40 Cosco Hamburg 65531 280m Rotterdam Hamburg Cosco Uk Ltd
27/04/06 05:31 Msc Martina 37398 243m Las Palmas, Gran Canaria Antwerp Msc Uk
27/04/06 06:16 Msc Asli 15675 217m Gemlik,Bursa Antwerp Msc Uk
27/04/06 07:32 Helena Schepers 3958 107m Rotterdam Belfast Fred Olsen (X-Express)
27/04/06 10:59 Cscl Los Angeles 66058 277m Le Havre Hamburg China Shipping Uk Ltd.--Jsa
27/04/06 11:35 Damaskus 16915 168m Salerno Hamburg Hamburg Sud Uk-----John Good
27/04/06 12:51 Contaz Carrier 9548 149m Salerno Teesport / Teeside Multimodal- Basco Shipping
27/04/06 13:54 Maersk Anglia 13073 143m Scheveningen Scheveningen Norfolk Line
27/04/06 19:00 Spaarnedijk 2978 100m Bremerhaven Rotterdam Multimodal- Unifeeder
27/04/06 20:30 Maersk Flanders 13073 143m Scheveningen Scheveningen Norfolk Line
28/04/06 04:00 Cosco Tianjin 66380 279m Hamburg Port Said Cosco Uk Ltd
28/04/06 05:00 Western Trader 4164 111m Grangemouth Rotterdam Feederlink
28/04/06 05:00 Julie Delmas 26061 196m Antwerp Le Havre Delmas Uk.
28/04/06 08:00 Ocean Bird 3320 94m Hamburg Jebel Ali Grange Shipping Xgs
28/04/06 14:00 Clontarf 3698 97m South Shields / Tyne Rotterdam Feederlink
28/04/06 20:00 Sea Energy 3332 92m Felixstowe Esbjerg Obc Shipping Ltd
28/04/06 23:59 Maersk Belawan 34377 240m Gioia Tauro Bremerhaven Maersk Line
29/04/06 01:00 Nautic 22667 188m Haifa Antwerp Iscont/Starlift-J.S.
29/04/06 01:00 Orkun Kalkavan 9978 149m Barcelona Hamburg Turkon Line
29/04/06 01:30 Maersk Mandraki 52191 294m Algeciras Antwerp Maersk Line
29/04/06 04:00 Dal Reunion 15895 168m Marseille Antwerp Cory Vogt Agency Ltd 1
29/04/06 05:00 Maersk Barcelona 33400 239m Bremerhaven Antwerp Maersk Line
29/04/06 07:00 Ym Prominence 40435 270m Barcelona Rotterdam Yang Ming Line
29/04/06 07:00 Birka Carrier 12251 155m Antwerp Antwerp Finnlines/Finanglia Ferries
29/04/06 08:00 Maersk Sydney 94724 335m Rotterdam Hamburg Maersk Line
29/04/06 08:00 Msc Mia Summer 25219 216m La Spezia Antwerp Msc Uk
29/04/06 12:00 Northsea Trader 4984 117m Grangemouth Grangemouth Feederlink
29/04/06 12:00 Euro Squall 6191 133m Leixoes Teesport / Teeside Kawasaki Kk K Line
29/04/06 16:00 Hanjin Washington 65643 279m Hamburg Singapore Hanjin Shipping
29/04/06 18:00 Cosco Bremerhaven 35944 241m Antwerp Bremerhaven Cosco Uk Ltd
29/04/06 19:00 Gerd Maersk 97933 367m Tanjong Pelapas Rotterdam Maersk Line
29/04/06 21:00 Kurkse 2658 91m Antwerp Rotterdam Teco Lines (Samskip)
29/04/06 22:00 Ym Orchid 64254 275m Antwerp Port Said Yang Ming Line
29/04/06 23:59 Iran Zanjan 25407 207m Malta (Valetta) Hamburg J.S.A. - I.R.I.S.L.
30/04/06 01:00 Msc Rebecca 37579 243m Las Palmas, Gran Canaria Hamburg Msc Uk
30/04/06 04:00 Msc Marta 65483 275m Antwerp Unknown Brm Msc Uk
30/04/06 07:00 Sealand Florida 57075 290m Rotterdam Bremerhaven Maersk Line
30/04/06 09:00 Norasia Tegesos 31207 210m Port Said Rotterdam Norasia/Csav
30/04/06 11:00 Cholguan 66280 276m Zeebrugge Suez Norasia/Csav
30/04/06 12:00 Stafford 14102 153m Action Intl (Manchester) Ltd
30/04/06 16:00 Opdr Sevilla 4115 101m Seville / Sevilla Rotterdam John Good & Sons
30/04/06 19:00 Gudrun 4628 113m Grangemouth South Shields / Tyne Feederlink
30/04/06 20:00 Apl Malaysia 54415 294m Bremerhaven Newark, Nj Apl Co.Pte Ltd
30/04/06 20:00 Msc Socotra 35065 245m Le Havre Antwerp Msc Uk
30/04/06 20:00 Johannes Maersk 30166 217m Rotterdam Antwerp Maersk Line
01/05/06 01:00 Maersk Dauphin 50350 292m Gioia Tauro Bremerhaven Maersk Line
01/05/06 07:00 Hanjin Helsinki 65131 275m Rotterdam Le Havre Hanjin Shipping
01/05/06 07:00 Amsteldijk 2978 100m Bremerhaven Rotterdam Multimodal- Unifeeder
01/05/06 10:00 Msc Lausanne 50963 275m Le Havre Antwerp Msc Uk
01/05/06 10:00 Msc Roberta 39892 244m Antwerp Le Havre Msc Uk
01/05/06 23:59 Xin Da Lian 66433 280m Antwerp Valencia China Shipping Uk Ltd.--Jsa
02/05/06 06:00 Inzhener Lupichev 3722 114m Ghent Ghent Graypen
02/05/06 06:00 Peyo Yavorov 12554 159m Mersin, Icel Hamburg Bulcon/Black Sea (Corys)
02/05/06 07:00 Birka Express 12251 155m Oulu (Uleaborg) Antwerp Finnlines/Finanglia Ferries
02/05/06 07:00 Opdr Casablanca 4115 101m Leixoes Rotterdam John Good & Sons
02/05/06 07:00 Maersk Pecem 30051 208m Newark, Nj Bremerhaven Maersk Line
02/05/06 13:00 Maersk Kingston 80654 299m Rotterdam Shekou, Guangdong Maersk Line
02/05/06 13:00 Mackinac Bridge 42414 243m Antwerp Bremerhaven Hanjin Shipping
02/05/06 14:00 Gerd J 3850 100m Rotterdam Teesport / Teeside Portlink
02/05/06 19:00 Enforcer 7642 135m Gdynia Hamburg Macandrews
02/05/06 20:00 Msc Susanna 107849 337m Rotterdam Antwerp Msc Uk
03/05/06 07:00 Navita 3329 99m Le Havre Unknown Moe Multimodal- Holland Maas
03/05/06 07:00 Clontarf 3698 97m South Shields / Tyne South Shields / Tyne Feederlink
03/05/06 08:00 Plovdiv 11982 157m Rotterdam Dublin Fred Olsen (X-Express)
03/05/06 08:00 Helena Schepers 3958 107m Rotterdam Belfast Fred Olsen (X-Express)
03/05/06 08:00 Tossens 3818 104m Rotterdam Cork Fred Olsen (X-Express)
03/05/06 08:00 Mukaddes Kalkavan 9978 149m Barcelona Hamburg Turkon Line
03/05/06 08:00 Safmarine Europe 21887 189m Antwerp Dunkerque Maersk Line
03/05/06 08:00 Maris 3999 101m Rotterdam Belfast Bg Freight
03/05/06 14:30 Chicago Bridge 66332 279m Hamburg Le Havre Kawasaki Kk K Line
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Old April 27th, 2006, 04:23 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjwmoore
Please, John MK , give up your vendetta against Felixstowe!!! Look at the sailings list below, are any of those ports destinations suited for Liverpool?Is Felixstowe really a RIVAL to Liverpool?????
Felixstowe is a scab port of that there is no doubt. All those sailing can easily be suited to Liverpool.

If you have been following the thread, it is clear that extra container transport cost on land can be quite significant. As most of Felixstowe’s cargo goes right through East Anglia, extra cost will be involved compared to ports like Liverpool which is nearer population conurbations and industry. A rise in vehicle fuel prices may hopefully get rid of this scab port for ever.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 06:13 PM   #126
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John- read this:

1875
The Company was founded by Colonel George Tomline, a prominent local landowner. Business commenced under the name of "The Felixstowe Railway and Pier Company".

1877
The first F. R. & P. Co. passenger train ran from Westerfield to Felixstowe, but in 1879 this line was transferred to the Great Eastern Railway.

1879
The company title was changed to the "Felixstowe Railway and Dock Company", and powers were given to construct a dock, warehouses and rail sidings. Later in the same year, the company title was again changed, to the "Felixstowe Dock and Railway Company", as it is today.

1882
Work commenced on the Dock Basin.

1886
The Dock was opened for trade, and the first commercial vessel entered on 7th April.

1889
Colonel Tomline died. The Dock was left to Captain Ernest Pretyman.

1904
A flour mill and grain storage silo were built on the north side of the Basin.

1914-18
The Port was requisitioned as a Royal Navy Destroyer and Mine-sweeper Base.

1939-45
The Port was requisitioned as a Royal Navy MTB and Air Sea Rescue Base.

1951
The Port was acquired by Mr. Gordon Parker, an agricultural merchant. New warehouses were erected for copra, wheat, maize and sugar. RN oil tanks were leased for the storage of linseed, ground-nut and palm oils.

1953
The Port suffered a severe set-back, when the disastrous East coast floods swept over the entire Dock area, causing extensive damage, and destroying the two wooden piers at the basin entrance.

1959
Work commenced on the new East Quay. Bulk grain and liquid tanks were added.

1961
Felixstowe Tank Developments Ltd. was formed. More tanks were added.

1963
Two million cubic feet of warehousing were added. The Felixstowe Cold Store was opened.

1964
The Oil Jetty was constructed, extending 1,100 feet into the waters of Harwich Harbour.

1965
No.1 Ro/Ro berth was completed, and made available at all states of the tide.

1966
Building work commenced on Landguard Container Terminal.

1967 - 68
The first 500 feet of Landguard Container Terminal, together with one Paceco Vickers Portainer Crane, was completed and in use by 1st July. By March 1968, the remainder of the new container quay (a further 800 feet) had been completed, including one extra Paceco crane, and Ro/Ro berth (No.2 Ro/Ro). In addition, 13 acres of land had been reclaimed.

1972
Work began on a further extension of Landguard Container Terminal. Work also commenced on the development of facilities in the north of the Port.


You will notice most of the development took place while the Rt Hon Member for HUYTON was the PM- was he in on the conspiracy too?

When we were stationed in Germany, coming back to the UK would be via Harwich or Felixstowe - why? Because its the shortest route! Plain and simple! Should we have got a coaster round the country to arrive up here? Businesses think the same way- you might not like it but we live in a free market economy where business descisions will be based on profitability, not conspiracies.

Liverpool is a great port in its own right, so i dont understand the constant slagging of another port which deals in different traffic. Liverpool still is and will remain the gateway to the Americas, not to Timbuktu or Rotterdam. Not all goods shipped to or from the UK are destined for the North West or the Midlands, get used to it.

My missus works as a buyer and sources most of their stock from China- she says the logistics people "dont like using Liverpool" (I dont know why, ill find out), and ship through Southampton, which might seem odd as the company is based in Warrington. Ill find out more.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 06:53 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjwmoore
John- read this:
You will notice most of the development took place while the Rt Hon Member for HUYTON was the PM- was he in on the conspiracy too?
Probably.

Quote:
When we were stationed in Germany, coming back to the UK would be via Harwich or Felixstowe - why? Because its the shortest route! Plain and simple!
Cargo and passengers are two very different things. One has arms and legs.

Quote:
but we live in a free market economy where business descisions will be based on profitability, not conspiracies.
Business decisions are also based on rumour and innuendo too…..and also ignorance.

Quote:
Liverpool is a great port in its own right, so i dont understand the constant slagging of another port which deals in different traffic.
Liverpool has deal with containers since the 1960s, 1971 at Seaforth, yet they all went around to Felixstowe.

Quote:
Liverpool still is and will remain the gateway to the Americas, not to Timbuktu or Rotterdam. Not all goods shipped to or from the UK are destined for the North West or the Midlands, get used to it.
Most of the good are though. The Midlands/North West/Leeds-Bradford-Sheffield is by the largest population cluster and industry too. Get used to it.

Quote:
My missus works as a buyer and sources most of their stock from China- she says the logistics people "dont like using Liverpool" (I dont know why, ill find out), and ship through Southampton, which might seem odd as the company is based in Warrington. Ill find out more.
You never know. The hub caps might have gone missing.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 06:53 PM   #128
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Very interesting info SJW,rather proves that Felixstowe has a history and is not a 'scab' port.
I'm all for shouting Liverpools praises but to denigrate another port in such a fashion is not on.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 06:57 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kung_fuzi
Very interesting info SJW,rather proves that Felixstowe has a history and is not a 'scab' port.
I'm all for shouting Liverpools praises but to denigrate another port in such a fashion is not on.
It has a small history then massive expansion with government sweeteners too. Felixstowe is a scab port - that it is.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 07:00 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-MK
It has a small history then massive expansion with government sweeteners too. Felixstowe is a scab port - that it is.
Not very nice.
Apart from the unpleasantness why is it a 'scab' port?
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Old April 28th, 2006, 11:31 AM   #131
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I said id find out more about a "reluctance" to ship through Liverpool:

Seems I partly got the wrong end of the stick. The two factors are times in transit and cost. The imports come through 4 UK ports:

Liverpool
Felixstowe (boo, hiss)
Southampton
Thamesport (Isle of Grain, another "upstart")

Of the above, Liverpool is the cheapest. So thats fine for regular, non urgent shipments. However, the southern ports take a couple of days off the transit time (including road/rail forwarding). So anything with a definate timescale will go south. Of course availability of slots on ships is a factor too, hence the use of 3 diffent southern ports.

So, in the real world there a legitimate reasons for using ports some distance away and for the whole UK not importing everything through Liverpool!! (London has always been the biggest UK port anyhow)
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Old April 28th, 2006, 11:51 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kung_fuzi
Not very nice.
Apart from the unpleasantness why is it a 'scab' port?
It was expanded to kill Liverpool. A scab port.
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Old April 28th, 2006, 05:20 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-MK
It was expanded to kill Liverpool. A scab port.

Then that plan was a failure because Liverpool has not been killed,in fact rather the opposite.

Do you have a kind word to say about anyone?
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Old April 28th, 2006, 05:28 PM   #134
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Interesting reading

A visit to the following site will give some a very interesting read. Enjoy. [URL]

http://www.labournet.net/docks2/9706/ndls.htm
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Old April 28th, 2006, 06:14 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kung_fuzi
Then that plan was a failure because Liverpool has not been killed,in fact rather the opposite.
You obviously don't know what happend to Liverpool over the past 30 odd years.
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Old April 28th, 2006, 07:25 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-MK
You obviously don't know what happend to Liverpool over the past 30 odd years.
All I know is it hasn't been killed as you say the plan was.
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Old April 28th, 2006, 07:27 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kung_fuzi
All I know is it hasn't been killed as you say the plan was.
I repeat: "You obviously don't know what happend to Liverpool over the past 30 odd years."
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Old April 28th, 2006, 07:49 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-MK
I repeat: "You obviously don't know what happend to Liverpool over the past 30 odd years."
Do you mean the fact that it's now handling more cargo than any other time in its history?

Check out this link:

http://www.merseydocks.co.uk/index2.htm
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Old April 28th, 2006, 07:50 PM   #139
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Arrow More Steel For Ireland Railed Into Port Of Liverpool .....

http://www.merseydocks.co.uk/index2.htm

For Immediate Release - 24 April, 2006

More Steel For Ireland Railed Into Port Of Liverpool

Rail movements of steel through the Port of Liverpool have more than doubled to meet market demand in Ireland and the North West of England.

Both steel coil and plate are now regularly arriving at the Gladstone Steel Terminal from South Wales for onward shipment to Dublin and Belfast and regional distribution in Britain.

The number of EWS trains carrying the cargoes has risen to as many as five a week in 2006 from the one to two each week last year.

The Mersey Docks and Harbour Company steel terminal expects to handle 180,000 tonnes of the railed traffic in 2006, with onward shipment to Ireland undertaken by Mersey Docks' subsidiary, Coastal Container Line.

Said John Rogers, Mersey Docks' Business Development Manager: "We have been handling steel coil shipments arriving by rail from early in 2005. The increase in the number of trains in 2006 and the addition of steel plate volumes is a response to market demand and a reflection of the quality service the Port of Liverpool is able to provide."

Both the coil and plate are discharged from the trains within the Gladstone Steel Terminal's 95,000 sq ft warehouse, using 30 tonne capacity roof gantry cranes, which also load onto special flats for the short movement to quayside and waiting ship.

Coastal Container Line is the major lift-on lift-off operator on the Irish Sea, sailing to Dublin daily and Belfast three times a week from its own terminal at nearby Seaforth Dock.

Said Coastal's Chief Executive John Forrester: "The greater volumes arriving at the Gladstone Steel Terminal by train for onward shipment to Ireland consolidate Coastal's long term relationship with a major supplier. We are delighted to have the opportunity to write a new chapter in a quality service we have been providing for a good number of years."
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www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk
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1,000s of maitime companies employ 10s of 1,000s of staff with an annual turnover of £2.5bns+ / 15% of the Merseyside economy. The Super Port of Liverpool is expanding & with 150,000 ship movements a year, the River Mersey is the UK’s 3rd busiest estuary.
http://www.shipais.com/index.php
The Merseyrail network runs 700 services a day, the most intense of any in the UK apart from London Underground.
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Old April 28th, 2006, 07:50 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjwmoore
(London has always been the biggest UK port anyhow)
Has it been? Liverpool was larger for a very long time – and at one time Liverpool was the largest port in the world. Also it depends on how you consider a port to be the largest.

Tonnage? Liverpool always outstripped London on that.
Ship movements?
Size of ship movements? London could not handle large ships. The Royal Docks were a white elephant - massive docks, but large ships could not sail up the Thames

London had a lot of coastal traffic that served just the needs of London, like coal from the north east. Liverpool trade was overwhelmingly international. Coal never went by rail to London until WW2 broke out, because it had to. And during WW2, London was effectively closed down as a port with London dockers transported, with their families, to Clydebank.

Felixstowe, the notorious scab port, deals with more tonnage than Liverpool – containers so easy to acheive – but in ships movements cannot compete with the Mersey: Liverpool, Birkenhead. Garston, Eastham, Ellesmere Port, Runcorn, etc.

Or is a port the largest because of wharf space, even though not fully utilised? It the largest but not used. Like Wembley stadium was largest in the UK, but a handful of game a season. More people watched games over a year at West Ham than Wembley. Which was the largest then? Upton Park?

Stats? They can be blind you with bullshit.
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