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View Poll Results: What do you think?
Yes - to enhance safety 34 80.95%
No - intrusion of privacy 8 19.05%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 29th, 2005, 05:02 PM   #21
Sinjin P.
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Yes...for safety purposes at the same time no... for privacy purposes
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Old August 29th, 2005, 06:50 PM   #22
beta29
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In Berlin we need a lot more than we have now! Give a f*** of privacy, which is a big problem in Germany! Anyway, we need cameras. First I canīt see more of these ugly tags and graffiti in each subway station, also thereīs a lot of crime and we have 2 lines which are also known as drug lines!
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Old August 29th, 2005, 07:54 PM   #23
TO_Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick-taylor
But you confusing between someone raping/stealing/murdering and innocent couples kissing. The later is not and will never be a criminal offence. Also crime levels are lower - specifically in the violent offences area, ie rape, murder, etc. Also they help with investigations, less people who are innocent need to be brought in for question in the mistaken belief that they were involved. CCTV footage can also provide evidence for innocent people if anything was to come to court - it is another proof of their wearabouts other than word of mouth.

I somehow doubt a CCTV operator would just pan into peoples apartments. Also what was the name of the documentary - never heard of anything like it myself.

Of course nothing is leak proof but we don't live in a utopia where there is no crime. There has to be a balance between freedoms and security and currently the situation is about right. Fact of the matter is, they have aided in cutting crime by catching the whereabouts of suspects. They also act as a prevention when there is not the resources to continually have officers on the street.

Also if you have nothing to hide then there should be nothing to worry about! That is a fact and the only way you could argue against it is if you are either paranoid or have committing something wrong.

1. Kissing and holding hands is not an offence (at least not in the west, though not other places, say in Iran) but people don't feel like having doing while having an invisible set of eyes on them.

That is the "chill" -- a demonstratable change in behaviour that demonstrates the costs of privacy invasion.

2. I don't remember the name of the documentary, but it was about London and its aggressive use of cameras -- I'll have to dig through it. The original tape pan and zoom was clearly shown. The program suggested indirectly that the operator was disciplined but some senior official admitted that most of the monitors are young males and they are bored so such things can happen despite safeguards.

3. For the last time about the "nothing to hide" argument -- you have shifted the line about implied assumptions of guilt. You are reversing 800 years of hard won individual rights that started with the Magna Carta.

The fact that people are not conscious of this is what disturbs me. Everyone just goes around and says, "I am a good upright citizen therefore I shouldn't be bothered by it -- only bad people should be wary and that is a good thing" This is a total affront to personal freedom, liberty, power and presumption of innocence.
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Old August 30th, 2005, 11:22 AM   #24
nick_taylor
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Well I've been with girls in London and other cities in the UK and around the world and none have objected to kissing/cuddling/touching each other in parks, streets, shops, restaurants, clubs, etc. Infact if your so paranoid of being watched by a security camera in pubic, then why would you want to be doing any of these things in public in the first place when there could be hundreds of people that could be looking at you?

I somehow doubt the person you talk about is still employed now, this is the first time that I have heard of a documentary made on security cameras and London - I assume they highlighted the benefits as well as the negative side. The greater use of automated systems negates the human influence to all but in the input of faces from criminal/wanted lists.

I don't see how creating a balance between freedom and security is negating everything after the Magna Carta. Then again if you seem to right that security cameras are bad, what is your solution to replacing them?

Actually it is a good thing that the bad people in society should know that they are not innocent and that the innocent people in society should be able to go about their lives. Again you are innocent until proven guilty in the UK - no matter if your a pickpocket or terrorist. At least do some research into the UK legal system before trying to attack it.
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Old August 30th, 2005, 04:43 PM   #25
TO_Joe
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I think we will have to disagree. We have different values and are coming from different perspectives (collective security versus individual freedoms).

But one thing I will point out is the coercive nature of the cameras. Once the camera is installed, I am being photographed, whether I agree to it or not. And that is precisely why I feel it to be such an invasion.

Cameras are already everywhere, and not just in London. In Toronto, you will be photographed while exiting the airport parking lot, taking a taxi, entering and standing on the subway stations and platforms, almost all malls, ATM machines, office buildings, driving on the highways (401, 407, Gardner). The police now want to mount them on the streets but Canada's Privacy Commissioner has put his foot down and say that it is going too far.
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Old August 30th, 2005, 11:58 PM   #26
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No I believe in security and freedoms. Both can and should be balanced. Neither can work without the other and it is ridiculous to assume that they can.

But all the people around you would have noticed you also - some people with photographic memories, others remembering you. Unless you force people to not look at others like North Korea then there is no way you can stop other s watching or recognising you through pure coincidence. Cameras are simply an extension to eyes that are fixed in one location. Also question why CCTV are in some of the locations. Would you not be suspicious of people who fail to board a train one after the other and look panicked on the platform? Wouldn't you get worried if someone is hanging around scoping the airport out on several days even though they do not meet up or fly anywhere? Also CCTV has helped reduced traffic jams in the UK. Thanks to the national traffic cam network, accidents are reported quicker and emergency services can respond more efficiently to the scene. More people are alive due to the quicker response and traffic jams are shorter in delay. Speed cameras have also throughout 90% of placements ensured that people do not speed - the main cause of road fatalities. Road deaths have since decreased especially in black spot areas where there have been fatalities in the past.
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Old September 1st, 2005, 05:27 AM   #27
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'It's not the cameras, it's who watches'
Ex-RCMP chief says yes to surveillance cameras -- and to protecting the public's privacy

Michael Kane
Vancouver Sun
9 August 2005

Former RCMP commissioner Norman Inkster is puzzled by claims that surveillance cameras don't prevent crime.

"Once something is prevented, it doesn't happen, of course," he said in an interview Monday. "We have absolutely no idea how many crimes are prevented by cameras."

Inkster said speedy arrests after the London terror bombings have demonstrated the value of video surveillance in public areas.

In Canada, he suggests guarantees be put in place to meet concerns that cameras could be an infringement on privacy and to ensure images are not misused.

"So the question is not whether or not we have cameras -- the answer to that question in my view is yes -- but whether or not those images are properly vetted by a non-police body. I think that addresses the concerns of people worried about being watched by Big Brother."

Toronto-based Inkster, who was in Vancouver to visit the newest office of Inkster Group corporate investigations and security, noted that people are filmed by cameras every day in banks, shopping malls and corporate offices. Commerce Court West, one of the largest office towers in downtown Toronto, now has flat screen televisions hanging from the ceiling.

"You look up to see the news and a camera right beside it catches a good, full-face view of you, which I thought is a marvellous idea," said the 66-year-old former president of Interpol and one-time head of KPMG's global forensic accounting practice.

He said the threat of a terror attack in Vancouver is real because Canada is the only one of a list of countries named on an al-Qaida target list that has yet to be attacked, if the Bali bombing which killed mostly Australians is viewed as an attack on Australia.

"One of the worst things that can happen to us anywhere in Canada is that we become complacent, believing that nothing will happen here because we are nice people."

Formed in 2003, the Inkster Group helps organizations reduce the risk and impact of problems such as fraud, theft, secret commissions, workplace harassment and security.

Since 9/11, the company has worked with several large B.C. corporations to reduce their vulnerability to terrorism and to ensure off-site storage is in place for important data so that the businesses can survive any attack.

More than 50 per cent of the group's work involves checking out suppliers, customers and potential joint-venture partners all over the world.

Inkster's staff of former police officers and forensic accountants comb through public records to find out if individuals have criminal records, are suspected of fraudulent activity, or if they have been particularly litigious, entering into similar deals with a number of companies and then failing to deliver.

"Doing your due diligence early in the process is key because if there are some questions about the people on the other side, you can walk away without wasting too much time or money, or you can write the deal in a way that protects you."

While Inkster is not involved in preparations for the 2010 Olympics, he noted that security at each Games builds on the lessons learned from previous events dating back to the Munich massacre of Israel's athletes.

As an RCMP officer he worked on security at the Calgary Games and the Winter Olympics at Lake Placid in the United States.

"My advice to the 2010 organizers would be from a business point of view and that is that they have got to be absolutely certain that they are dealing with legitimate vendors and that they make sure they can deliver what they say they will."

After more than 10 years in private practice, he laments that there is little appetite in the private sector for crime prevention. "No-one is interested in putting in a system that would help them detect fraud or other inappropriate activity early one, until they have been a victim."

In addition to providing fraud vulnerability reviews, Inkster's firm also picks up where the police leave off by pursuing and recovering stolen funds, including more than $40 million from a Swiss bank and another $10 million held by a corrupt bank manager in the Ukraine in complicity with a corrupt judge.

"We knew the Ukraine wanted to be seen as responsible in the European Community, so we surrounded them," Inkster said. "We had the World Bank call, we had the European Bank of Reconstruction call them, and we had Interpol raise some concerns. It took us two years but finally they said, 'We surrender,' and we got the money back."
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Old September 1st, 2005, 06:07 AM   #28
James Saito
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YES!! More cameras everywhere please.
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Old September 1st, 2005, 06:25 AM   #29
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How is putting cameras on trains intrusion of privacy? Why not complain about them in the grocery store?
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Old September 1st, 2005, 06:28 AM   #30
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The article is symptomatic of the problem with the entire camera debate -- just read it again and look at the circular logic, self-interest and dodges: cameras are good -- that should not be questioned even though we can't prove it, security is important, we must be always vigilant, I've got a booming security business, yes we pay lip service to privacy protection but we never specify how -- trust us, we'll protect you -- for a profit.

Total snakeoil job with no serious debate and no serious substance. Just business interests cloaked in fear and the flag.
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Old September 1st, 2005, 12:13 PM   #31
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There's cameras in basically EVERY train and tram and most buses in Melbourne and I don't think there's that much of a problem. The City of Melbourne also has a huge number of them watching the streets, and it can be useful for things like determining who threw the first punch in a brawl. But most footage is just archived away and probably overwritten after a while.
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Old September 1st, 2005, 01:16 PM   #32
Sinjin P.
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no way
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