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Old June 4th, 2011, 12:20 AM   #2241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intervention View Post
that reconstruction will not achieve the effect of the original.
Oh, it definitely will. Just give it time. Patina ain't a matter of just some months.

Several reconstructions across the globe prove how reconstructions age naturally and thus approach a state that comes closer to the initial structure.
Besides being crafted in a very careful manner, close to the originals.

Just check out Warsaw Old Town, the Long Market of Danzig, Rothenburg, Würzburg Residence, Montecassino, Governor's Palace of Williamsburg, Kinkaku-ji in Kyoto, Prinzipalmarkt in Münster, the Campanile, Market square of Hildesheim, Tsurphu Monastery, Kazan Cathedral, Basilica of Assisi etc.pp.


On a sidenote, it'd be ridiculous to give buildings an artificial "aged look", that's what I'd call Las Vegas / Disneyland. Buildings have to age in a natural way and that's just what happens with reconstructions.

Reconstructing buildings is a centuries old practice, so I don't understand why people still act like it would be something totally odd and arrived out of the blue recently. It belongs to our culture to restore beauty and art!
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Old June 4th, 2011, 02:03 AM   #2242
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Yes, time does heal all wounds and ivy redeems even mediocre architecture, however, I can't say that about Dresden yet, because I won't be there for another couple of weeks. But as for Warsaw, it should be noted that ironically some of the major landmark buildings were rebuilt from scratch but using the same construction elements even gothic brick, window frames were hewn by craftsmen and no precast elements were used...I think this is what lends it authenticity. The old town of Warsaw's reconstruction commenced shortly after its destructions so thousands of original elements were salvaged and reincorporated and millions of bricks were also salvaged, but what is not generally known, is that almost all of the basements and their vaulted ceilings were saved and many building facades were saved. The biggest challenge with reconstruction is proportion, building components and the technology used will have its distinct stamp on the final appearance.

From the pictures, the pseudo-historic reconstructions in Dresden remind me more of Elblag...looks very nice in both cases, but its a different approach to restoration.

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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old June 4th, 2011, 11:54 PM   #2243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Oh, it definitely will. Just give it time. Patina ain't a matter of just some months.

Several reconstructions across the globe prove how reconstructions age naturally and thus approach a state that comes closer to the initial structure.
Besides being crafted in a very careful manner, close to the originals.
Well, there is a difference when you reconstruct using original materials or build in a way that is at least somewhat reminiscent of the original manner. I don't mean pulling up bricks with horse and buggy, but rather using bricks and mortar and non-precast material. Sure, the Neumarkt will age with time and will look old. But, that won't give it authenticity. The Venetian in Las Vegas is looking old too, but it doesn't look like St Mark's Square in Venice.

I have nothing against reconstruction - in fact, I'm very much pro-reconstruction and where it is warranted it can bring dignity to a place and restore its elegance etc. I never meant to imply that it's a new thing - but, I would like to add that reconstruction after-the-fact makes much more sense than a re-imagined half reconstruction 50 years later. Truth be told, given the style, manner of building and the overall effect, I didn't find the Neumarkt to be as effective as I would have hoped.
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Old June 5th, 2011, 01:24 PM   #2244
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Anyway, it will be by far better then this

image hosted on flickr
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Old June 6th, 2011, 03:37 AM   #2245
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Although that in an of itself is a crazily unique experience
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Old June 6th, 2011, 06:40 PM   #2246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intervention View Post
Well, there is a difference when you reconstruct using original materials or build in a way that is at least somewhat reminiscent of the original manner. I don't mean pulling up bricks with horse and buggy, but rather using bricks and mortar and non-precast material. Sure, the Neumarkt will age with time and will look old. But, that won't give it authenticity. The Venetian in Las Vegas is looking old too, but it doesn't look like St Mark's Square in Venice.

I have nothing against reconstruction - in fact, I'm very much pro-reconstruction and where it is warranted it can bring dignity to a place and restore its elegance etc. I never meant to imply that it's a new thing - but, I would like to add that reconstruction after-the-fact makes much more sense than a re-imagined half reconstruction 50 years later. Truth be told, given the style, manner of building and the overall effect, I didn't find the Neumarkt to be as effective as I would have hoped.
If Warsaw was left in ruins until 10 years ago, any rebuilding would have followed the same patterns as in Dresden. It's really somewhat naive to believe that strategies and concepts and guidelines don't change in 65 years. Had Dresden and other east German cities not been denied rebuilding assistance in the 40s, it might have been different. But Dresden was left to suffer in rubble and defeat for decades, and the recent efforts to remake the once jewel of Europe is worthy of great praise and being commended rather than wishing to turn back the hands of time 6 decades which is not only impossible but rather misses the whole point.
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Old June 6th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #2247
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The whole point of what? That reconstruction, if undertaken, should be undertaken in a manner which actually recreates or attempts to recreate the original rather than create a reinterpretation and mishmash? All I'm saying is that it the overall effect of Dresden's efforts, as commendable as they may be, is lost through reinterpretations of historic buildings rather than reconstruction. One of the interesting aspects of the reconstruction of Dresden's key monuments that I learned at the Zwinger is that the complex of buildings around it was actually permitted to be reconstructed using Western funds through the Marshall Plan. So, Dresden unlike Warsaw was given Western development assistance.
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Old June 6th, 2011, 08:47 PM   #2248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intervention View Post
The whole point of what? That reconstruction, if undertaken, should be undertaken in a manner which actually recreates or attempts to recreate the original rather than create a reinterpretation and mishmash? All I'm saying is that it the overall effect of Dresden's efforts, as commendable as they may be, is lost through reinterpretations of historic buildings rather than reconstruction. One of the interesting aspects of the reconstruction of Dresden's key monuments that I learned at the Zwinger is that the complex of buildings around it was actually permitted to be reconstructed using Western funds through the Marshall Plan. So, Dresden unlike Warsaw was given Western development assistance.
Do you know, Germany was divided in two states: GDR and West Germany.
And Dresden was located in the communist state GDR. There was no money from the Marshall Plan.
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Old June 6th, 2011, 09:37 PM   #2249
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Well, Warsaw had no Marshall Plan at all just maybe some technical or material help from USSR (offset by considerable plunder by said), but then again the approach to restoration has changed in 60 years as well. My question is, is the reason for not reconstructing this quarter due to the lack of any reliable original plans - were they lost in the bombings?
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Old June 6th, 2011, 09:52 PM   #2250
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There are many evil people in Germany, the majority you find in politics. These people are of no use but to destroy this country. And their influence is growing. It was their decision to redestroy the marketplace with modern style cheap f***ed up b***sh**
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Old June 7th, 2011, 12:01 AM   #2251
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Quote:
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One of the interesting aspects of the reconstruction of Dresden's key monuments that I learned at the Zwinger is that the complex of buildings around it was actually permitted to be reconstructed using Western funds through the Marshall Plan. So, Dresden unlike Warsaw was given Western development assistance.
LOL!
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:21 AM   #2252
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What are you LOL'ing about? Don't shoot me, that's what the tour guide through the museum told the group.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 03:22 AM   #2253
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Quote:
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Do you know, Germany was divided in two states: GDR and West Germany.
And Dresden was located in the communist state GDR. There was no money from the Marshall Plan.
Again, don't shoot me - I assumed it was all financed by GDR. The museum guide was very clear and quick to point out that funding was provided from the West for the reconstruction of a variety of monuments, including the Zwinger which the GDR permitted.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 09:37 AM   #2254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intervention View Post
Again, don't shoot me - I assumed it was all financed by GDR. The museum guide was very clear and quick to point out that funding was provided from the West for the reconstruction of a variety of monuments, including the Zwinger which the GDR permitted.
The GDR permitted nothing in the 50s. The Russians permitted. And the Russians certainly didn't accept Western money to fund a Socialist showcase.
Wonder where you guide came from. Certainly not a local.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 05:25 PM   #2255
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Perhaps the KfW did give some money after the reunification
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"KfW banking group is a German government-owned development bank, based in Frankfurt. Its name originally comes from Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau, meaning Reconstruction Credit Institute. It was formed in 1948 after World War II as part of the Marshall Plan."
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Old June 7th, 2011, 05:26 PM   #2256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
Well, Warsaw had no Marshall Plan at all just maybe some technical or material help from USSR (offset by considerable plunder by said), but then again the approach to restoration has changed in 60 years as well. My question is, is the reason for not reconstructing this quarter due to the lack of any reliable original plans - were they lost in the bombings?
There was and remains a signficant resource of reliable plans, maps, and site surveys of Dresden pre-1945, but the rebuild was simply out of the question for two main reasons--no money and the communist desire to maintain a war-torn, rubble dominated city scape in order to keep the populus under their firm control.

Germany was largely destroy by Churchill's bombing craze. No mid-to large cities escaped major destruction with few exceptions. When the war was over, very isolated, notable buildings were rebuilt, but the dire need for housing and other infrastructure quickly led to the requirement to build fast and cheap...and modernesque. So the semi hodge podge of reconstruction is less a function of poor German planning, rather the blame lies at Churchill's feet for having destroyed the cities unnecessarily in the first place.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 10:45 PM   #2257
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you know, this might be a turning point in history , but I sympathize with our German neighbours when it comes to Churchill - he stabbed us in tbe back after all we did for so-called Allies and let Poland and your East Germany to be re-occupied, f__king prick! Destroying a nation's treasures, culture is so dehumanizing but unfortunately it works as Freidrich Pabst surmised
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Old June 7th, 2011, 10:58 PM   #2258
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Polizei Praesidium

Does anyone have any pics of what this enormous thing replaced in the late 1890s?

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20090422003622
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Old June 8th, 2011, 06:53 PM   #2259
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Quote:
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Do you know, Germany was divided in two states: GDR and West Germany.
And Dresden was located in the communist state GDR. There was no money from the Marshall Plan.
In fact while West Germany was receiving money from the west to rebuild, East Germany was being punished by the Soviets and having to pay reparations. Most industry was dismantled and moved to the USSR. There was absolutely no money and very little will to reconstruct anything.

In light of the history, I'm amazed and impressed with the progress and quality of work that has gone on in Dresden. I actually find it much more impressive in person than pictures.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 05:13 AM   #2260
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Here is an interesting wikipedia link on this subject:

Industrial plans for Germany
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