daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 11th, 2011, 08:09 PM   #2641
SonOfThomp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 290
Likes (Received): 226

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varoš View Post

btw.I would like to mention,Zadar in Croatia also has tragically faith from ww2 like Dresden,they are twins in this situation.

Do you have any pictures, or links?
SonOfThomp no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 11th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #2642
peter871
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 57
Likes (Received): 8

I have found some here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=146633&page=6
peter871 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 11:38 PM   #2643
eu
Magic Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Paris
Posts: 783
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varoš View Post
One thing interests me,what does mean for people who reconstruct Dresden's old town to put the one modern building between few baroque buildings?As they can reconstruct 90% of buildings they can also and other 10%.Is it not stupid?
I don't agree. I think it's totally normal for a city to have a mix between old and modern buildings. The mix we now find in the reconstructed part of Dresden give to this quarter an aspect very "authentic". If we had just "old style" buildings, it would appear like a "fake" city.
I mean, if Dresden wasn't destructed during WWII, today we would probably have 10% of modern buildings, and 90% of old ones. And it's what we have now.
Actually, I think that people who reconstruct the city are doing a good job, constructing the city as it would have ben without the war, and not constructing as it was. It's 2 different different things.
__________________
Paris, mon amour, Budapest, ma maîtresse
eu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 12:37 AM   #2644
Varoš
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 62
Likes (Received): 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter871 View Post
It is trully sad,and they did not reconstruct nothing but churches,the most famous street in Zadar-Kalelarga now has socialist buildings,on the walking trail near the sea there were just 4 buildings reconstructed
But Zadar has always been and will be beautiful forever.

If you understand croatian,you will understand this: Lipi moj grade uvik te se sitin
Varoš no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 12:40 AM   #2645
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,423
Likes (Received): 21060

The biggest fake-ism, Disneyland-esque project, it's new but looks old crap in Europe since God knows when.

It will draw tons of tourists and people will call the district "historic".

But, anyway, I already came to terms with mediocrity and backwardness that guide these fake projects all over the continent (building something fake, an imitation, of buildings that are long gone for whatever reasons - earthquakes, bombs, demolition).

Fortunately, they don't do that often, otherwise we'd all be doomed to regressing to an architectural past instead of looking to the future.

Once something is on the ground, you either repair it immediately after or forget about it for good.

At least, the Dresden counterfeits are good, like those fake Prada apparel one can find in certain elusive shops. It looks old, it appears old, but it is made in 2011 I've seem much more shabby fake buildings elsewhere. In that aspect, they took fake-ism to a whole new dimension and excelled at it - that is, on the outside, because the interiors of such buildings are as modern as they are.

The whole project symbolizes what is wrong with much of contemporary architecture in Europe that is not post-modernist: it is fake, it has a "head in the sand" mentality, it can't come with anything new because it is ultra-nostalgic and defeatist of present times, and it is absolutely hypocrite with its fake 1800's façades and ultra-modern energy-efficient interiors.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 02:19 AM   #2646
cameronpaul
Paris-the city beautiful
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 461

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlamoureux View Post
Guys...Have been to Dresden at all? The fact they are using the same street pattern with the fact of the city has such an historical sense to it, does not make it Disneyland at all. The modern buildings are to scale and form a beautiful street scape. There are plenty of historical building all around Dresden. Perhaps you prefer an empty lot that stood there for 65 years. Do you think it feasible to reconstruct every building to the standard of 200 years ago? That will never happen. When you go to Dresden, you will be awestruck by what is going on there. The people, the food, the drink, the scenery, the streets, the reconstructions.......Awesome.
Anyone who uses that worn out old phrase "Disneyland" to describe the rebulding of city like Dresden obviously doesn't know what the **** they are talking about and their architectural knowledge is zero. If you have absolutely no idea on what you are pontificating on it's best not to say anything!! I've also been to the city and like you say it's awesome and I can't think of anything that looks less like Orlando
__________________

Photodash liked this post
cameronpaul no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 03:04 AM   #2647
peter871
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 57
Likes (Received): 8

the reconstructed parts have such a positive vibe and they spread good emotions (just my observation). Ratio is so much overestimated in the West. So what if it the blocks were built in 2011 if they produce noble emotions.

Varoš: yes i understand you, they should have reconstructed the waterfront at least.
peter871 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #2648
Kampflamm
Endorsed by the NRA
 
Kampflamm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Occupied Europe
Posts: 23,660

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The whole project symbolizes what is wrong with much of contemporary architecture in Europe that is not post-modernist: it is fake, it has a "head in the sand" mentality, it can't come with anything new because it is ultra-nostalgic and defeatist of present times, and it is absolutely hypocrite with its fake 1800's façades and ultra-modern energy-efficient interiors.
You're right. Dresden symbolizes what is wrong with contemporary modern architecture. It has failed to build cities that people want to live in with its bland, interchangeable facades that could be found anywhere. Instead people want "their own" facades back. This kind of baroque architecture could only be found in Dresden, just like a different style of baroque architecture can only be found in, say, Prague.
__________________
Free German passport

"I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Wunderbarler and it's something that you have to earn."

Highcliff, Photodash liked this post
Kampflamm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 02:28 PM   #2649
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,423
Likes (Received): 21060

The problem is that the Baroque Desdren is GONE since 1945. I'm not going down on discussing all the war morality and associated issues. But it was bombed out, and lost. There would be a point reconstructing it in 1946, not in 2011. This is no less fake than someone wearing some antique costumes and masks and pretending it is living in the time of Otto von Bismarck.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 02:33 PM   #2650
Kampflamm
Endorsed by the NRA
 
Kampflamm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Occupied Europe
Posts: 23,660

Why can't it be reconstructed today? I'd get your point if something else had been erected there but the Neumarkt area was pretty much left abandoned after 1945. Besides, these buildings were hundreds of years old in 45 as well so reconstructing them back then would have been just as fake as it supposedly is today.

Neumarkt video giving everyone a good overview of things to come:



Can't wait for Quartier 6 to get under way. It's gonna create a nice space between itself and the Johanneum. And that street leading from the Neumarkt to the castle and the Schlossstraße.
__________________
Free German passport

"I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Wunderbarler and it's something that you have to earn."

Highcliff liked this post
Kampflamm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #2651
Varoš
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 62
Likes (Received): 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem is that the Baroque Desdren is GONE since 1945. I'm not going down on discussing all the war morality and associated issues. But it was bombed out, and lost. There would be a point reconstructing it in 1946, not in 2011. This is no less fake than someone wearing some antique costumes and masks and pretending it is living in the time of Otto von Bismarck.
And what would you do?Would you build some commie blocks,then you would cry why they don't reconstruct anything.
For example,Nuremberg is a fake city because it was rebuilt after the war?Dresden is not reconstructed in 1950's as Nuremberg but it is in 2011,and it is the same thing just there are buildings from 1950 and in Dresden are from 2011.
Then let's say that all cityes in Germany are fake!
Varoš no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 06:34 PM   #2652
White Light
Shines in the dark...
 
White Light's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 1,326
Likes (Received): 943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem is that the Baroque Desdren is GONE since 1945. I'm not going down on discussing all the war morality and associated issues. But it was bombed out, and lost. There would be a point reconstructing it in 1946, not in 2011. This is no less fake than someone wearing some antique costumes and masks and pretending it is living in the time of Otto von Bismarck.
This is nonsense! Sure, Original Dresden is lost. But Dresden will live again with this reconstruction. If body died, soul will be revived, and live (forever) with new body. If soul still live, city is present, no matter what happened before. And it is by far better to create center as it once was, that to create new town center, while old one was internationally famous per its beauty. Only reconstruction like this one will help us to forget dark history of war, and only reconstructions like this one will show us what all of us lost in that same war.
__________________
"When all ends, behind us will remain only the monumental oddments of the vast civilization..."

Believe in architecture..........

Photodash liked this post
White Light no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 08:43 PM   #2653
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,541
Likes (Received): 5831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem is that the Baroque Desdren is GONE since 1945. I'm not going down on discussing all the war morality and associated issues. But it was bombed out, and lost. There would be a point reconstructing it in 1946, not in 2011. This is no less fake than someone wearing some antique costumes and masks and pretending it is living in the time of Otto von Bismarck.
Wrong. Old towns have a modern function. Therefore your analogy simply does not work at all.

The modern function is to serve as a background that creates comfortable public areas for modern services, offices, hotel and residential uses in central, well served, high value locations. Other than that they are also creating strong city brands, at a far cheaper price than modernist architecture which due to its lack of ideas has to employ bigger, higher and more expensive stuff to be spectacular. The function of the facades in this system have not changed a lot at all. They are still representing the wealth and well being of the city. Having such an old town is a real USP for a modern city and of real value, especially as those old towns usually are fare better in creating high value, mixed use public neighborhoods than modernist quarters.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 08:47 PM   #2654
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,541
Likes (Received): 5831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varoš View Post
And what would you do?
Please don't ask him what he would like to have instead of the reconstructed old town as it will be some mix of highways, bland monumental pedestrian hostile modernist complexes and parking lots.

Quote:
Would you build some commie blocks,then you would cry why they don't reconstruct anything.
For example,Nuremberg is a fake city because it was rebuilt after the war?
Unlikely. Suburbanist is pretty consistent with his views. He probably considers Nürnberg fake as well.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 09:35 PM   #2655
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,423
Likes (Received): 21060

For me, as I said in other thread, Berlin is a good example in areas like the Postdamplatz. Modern buildings in place of things that bombs and tanks had destroyed.

They could create some totally awesome NEW district in central Dresden, something evocative of 2011, looking for the future, lots of glass and steel.

Here in the Netherlands, there is a prime example of that: Rotterdam, a city whose central area was heavily bombed on WW2, reconstructed itself in a total modern way, including a new street plan where whole blocks had been torn down. It is by far and large the most awesome and modern city in the whole country.

Frankfurt was also heavily bombed and decided to go now reconstructing everything.

War is surely an unfortunate development, it creates heavy damage on cities, but once damage is done, you either repair it immediately after, or clear rubble and debris and build over.

Moreover:

Quote:
But Dresden will live again with this reconstruction. If body died, soul will be revived, and live (forever) with new body. If soul still live, city is present, no matter what happened before.
cities have no "soul". They are a set of concrete, steel, cobblestone, poles, buildings. Arguing that cities can have "life" or "soul" on their own, is borderline esoteric and the domain of star-readers, not architects or planners.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 10:12 PM   #2656
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,237
Likes (Received): 57916

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Frankfurt was also heavily bombed and decided to go now reconstructing everything.
MEGA-ÜBER-LOL. Are you out of your mind or something? It's just a tiny fraction of the old town we'll see getting reconstructed - and even there we'll get modern buildings. I'd be lucky if it was way more, as the old town of Frankfurt was one of the highest valued in Europe.

I'm not into this discussion anymore. Chewing it another zillion times won't make the time spent on it any more worthwhile.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

Highcliff liked this post
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 11:43 PM   #2657
TheReconstructer
Registered User
 
TheReconstructer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hoorn
Posts: 528
Likes (Received): 176

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
MEGA-ÜBER-LOL. Are you out of your mind or something? It's just a tiny fraction of the old town we'll see getting reconstructed - and even there we'll get modern buildings. I'd be lucky if it was way more, as the old town of Frankfurt was one of the highest valued in Europe.

I'm not into this discussion anymore. Chewing it another zillion times won't make the time spent on it any more worthwhile.
And Hopefully they're going to reconstruct in the future some more parts I think the should rebuild the Salzhaus too
TheReconstructer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 13th, 2011, 01:42 AM   #2658
Varoš
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 62
Likes (Received): 33

Maybe this is a stupid question,but I am still going to ask it:

While the Allies were bombing the cityes I don't understand why the bombed old towns?In the old towns there were(are) no factories,industrialization,railways etc...all of that is out of the inner cityes,right?
Or they were bombing the old towns just to show how powerful they are?Maybe there were some other reasons for doing that?
Varoš no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 13th, 2011, 02:23 AM   #2659
Tiaren
Registered User
 
Tiaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,702
Likes (Received): 5550

Suburbanist really scares me...already back in this thread here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1455375

His dogmata are just a little too hardcore, deadlocked and archaic.

Last edited by Tiaren; November 13th, 2011 at 02:48 AM.
Tiaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 13th, 2011, 02:33 PM   #2660
Plaudit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Likes (Received): 6

These people who criticize the reconstruction as "fake" often do not understand much about the region in which Dresden is located. Neumarkt is in the heart of the city that is centre of the region full of beautiful historical treasures (castles, palaces, old towns) that correspond exactly to the style in which Neumarkt is reconstructed. It would be fake and completely out of place to have there some modern steel and concrete boxes instead of beautiful old style buildings. In my opinion this reconstruction is very successful. I live in the Czech republic forty kilometers from Dresden and often visit the city to see its progress.

Last edited by Plaudit; November 13th, 2011 at 02:52 PM.
Plaudit no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
classic architecture, classic europe, construction updates, dresden, reconstruction, redevelopment, rekonstrucje, rekonstruktion, sachsen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu