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Old November 14th, 2011, 07:29 PM   #2681
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
They could create some totally awesome NEW district in central Dresden, something evocative of 2011, looking for the future, lots of glass and steel.

Here in the Netherlands, there is a prime example of that: Rotterdam, a city whose central area was heavily bombed on WW2, reconstructed itself in a total modern way, including a new street plan where whole blocks had been torn down. It is by far and large the most awesome and modern city in the whole country.
I've been to Rotterdam a couple of times. The first time even because I saw these awesome buildings here on the forum and I wanted to see the city for myself.
But the problem with Rotterdam is that the centre was COMPLETELY destroyed and nothing was rebuild.
They started to build these 50's en 60's modern buildings, and as a result almost the entire city excists out of a bunch of crap.
Even today they're still making the same mistakes for exemple Blaak 8--> look it up on the internet, it's a real eyesore)

The city has no heart, you can't see or feel when you're reaching the center of it. No narrow streets, no church in the centre, not even densely build. You could be standing in the centre of Rotterdam and feel like you're on the moon, by figure of speech.
The square at the cinema pathé and the hartsuyckerflat, wich is the closest thing to a central square just makes you wanna kill yourself.
Rotterdam concists out of a bunch of middle high appartement buildings, but can't manege to get a full, dense lowrise center.

Last edited by eland; November 14th, 2011 at 07:34 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2011, 10:12 PM   #2682
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^

I would like to add,the centre of Dresden was also completely destroyed(90%,but consider it as entire),and Dresden also was not rebuilt,almost nothing,just a few buildings,today Altmarkt looks ugly,and except Neumarkt all parts of the city are in modern style.
And in the middle of the inner city is Kulturpalast,and I think it is got to be torn down.

btw.I want to know something:
Why Americans after the ww2 did not rebuild all cities how they looked before bombing,a majority of cities are rebuilt(Munich,Nuremberg...)
but some cities are rebuilt in modern style(Ulm,Braunschweig,..),what did mean for Americans to rebuilt some cities in modern style?

Last edited by erbse; November 14th, 2011 at 11:01 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2011, 11:13 PM   #2683
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The Americans didn't rebuild the German cities (I mean, WTF are you thinking?) - the Germans did. And every city council and regional planners decided for different ways of rebuilding. Some wanted reconstructions and a valuable planning close to the pre-war grid - and some others wanted complete renewal and modernist style all over the place. There was no national masterplan or something. Almost every bigger town was screwed up, literally.

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I would like to add,the centre of Dresden was also completely destroyed(90%,but consider it as entire),and Dresden also was not rebuilt,almost nothing,just a few buildings,today Altmarkt looks ugly,and except Neumarkt all parts of the city are in modern style.
And in the middle of the inner city is Kulturpalast,and I think it is got to be torn down.
Most of the main Dresden landmarks were in a phase of reconstruction during GDR times already (Zwinger, Semperoper, Kunstakademie, Brühl's terrace, Hofkirche etc.).

It's simply not true that all parts of Dresden are built in modern style nowadays. Did you ever have a closer look at the city? Beautiful old quarters all over the place. Neustadt, Blasewitz, Loschwitz, Striesen, Pieschen, Löbtau, Weißer Hirsch... Just to name a few.
It's just that the inner core of the city was nearly wiped out. Being one of Europe's most valuable old towns once, that's a tremendously sad loss of course.

And no, the Kulturpalast isn't going to be torn down anytime soon.

Could you please be so kind and stop spreading any sort of half knowledge - or pretending you know about something which you obviously don't? Thanks.
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Old November 14th, 2011, 11:33 PM   #2684
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And no, the Kulturpalast isn't going to be torn down anytime soon.
Fortunately. I like Altstadt reconstruction very much, but Kulturpalast is such good building (especially mosaic) that it would be pity to destroy it
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Old November 15th, 2011, 12:05 AM   #2685
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The Americans didn't rebuild the German cities (I mean, WTF are you thinking?) - the Germans did. And every city council and regional planners decided for different ways of rebuilding. Some wanted reconstructions and a valuable planning close to the pre-war grid - and some others wanted complete renewal and modernist style all over the place. There was no national masterplan or something. Almost every bigger town was screwed up, literally.


Most of the main Dresden landmarks were in a phase of reconstruction during GDR times already (Zwinger, Semperoper, Kunstakademie, Brühl's terrace, Hofkirche etc.).

It's simply not true that all parts of Dresden are built in modern style nowadays. Did you ever have a closer look at the city? Beautiful old quarters all over the place. Neustadt, Blasewitz, Loschwitz, Striesen, Pieschen, Löbtau, Weißer Hirsch... Just to name a few.
It's just that the inner core of the city was nearly wiped out. Being one of Europe's most valuable old towns once, that's a tremendously sad loss of course.

And no, the Kulturpalast isn't going to be torn down anytime soon.

Could you please be so kind and stop spreading any sort of half knowledge - or pretending you know about something which you obviously don't? Thanks.
Well,I thought that americans rebuilt the German cities because there were an occupation zones and Allies have joined their zones together,so until the German reunification there were Americans on power,right?
I was in Dresden once,when it was not reconstructed neither close as it is today,with fact that I was just on the Brühl's terrace,seen Hofkirche and Neumarkt,I haven't been in any other parts of the city you mentioned.Maybe one day,i will go to Dresden again and see it closer.

Sorry,I didn't mean anything bad,looks like i had wrong thoughts.
I don't praise with my knowledge,just for information.



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Old November 15th, 2011, 12:28 AM   #2686
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Varoš, here is an interesting article about the postwar Germany's reconstruction:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...702856,00.html
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Old November 15th, 2011, 12:35 AM   #2687
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^
btw.I want to know something:
Why Americans after the ww2 did not rebuild all cities how they looked before bombing,a majority of cities are rebuilt(Munich,Nuremberg...)
but some cities are rebuilt in modern style(Ulm,Braunschweig,..),what did mean for Americans to rebuilt some cities in modern style?
I think the Germans themselves made these choices. It was largely American money, via the Marshall Plan, but I don't think any civic planning was done by the Allies in the West. If anyone knows differently, I'd be interested.

I am still shaken by the Most video. Incomprehensible!
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Old November 15th, 2011, 12:57 AM   #2688
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I am still shaken by the Most video. Incomprehensible!
In a way still product of war. There would not be the communist regime in Czechoslovakia without WW2 and only brutal totalitarian regime can destroy so easily whole historic city just because some coal under it.

Last edited by Plaudit; November 15th, 2011 at 10:40 AM.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 01:09 PM   #2689
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Investors have something that I assume you don't (no disrespect intended): BIG MONEY (millions of euros) to take risks redeveloping the place. And who pays should get their way building what THEY like. The public can have a say with their wallets not patronizing ugly buildings, or not buying flats/houses that they deem ugly, but that is rarely the case.

I think building regulations should only concern abstract, objective aspects like setbacks, volumetry, height/length ratio etc. It is not, or it shouldn't be, the role of the government to impose aesthetic aspects of a building like color insofar as it is not the role of the government to, say, legislate about which color of T-shirt you should wear, or which kind of music should you hear, or which clothes' style should you abide to.

Usually, that something OLD is removed is reason enough for a celebration. Even if it is to be replaced by a parking lot. On my book, old buildings are either:

(a) of national or international relevance, thus justifying its preservation as a museum for its importance alone (I'm TOTALLY against the preservation of old buildings for residence or commercial functions)

(b) relevant as ruins, thus developed into archaeological excavations (like Colosseum, for instance)

(c) just old, cases in which they deserve to be torn down because they are old. It probably has asbestos and other stuff anyway to justify tear them down with dynamite, like that awesome video posted before
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Old November 15th, 2011, 01:14 PM   #2690
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I think the Germans themselves made these choices. It was largely American money, via the Marshall Plan, but I don't think any civic planning was done by the Allies in the West. If anyone knows differently, I'd be interested.
The British, French and American didn't take any significant role in West Germany urban planning. None. Their priorities were other on the immediate aftermath of WW2. Then, in the early 1950s, they limited their presence to more of a military garrison to buffer the evil commies than taking any role in managing day-to-day life of Germans. The only significant thing the allies did, in many areas, was to remove much forest to bare land to avoid them being used to Germans as a cover should another war happen.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 01:18 PM   #2691
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The city has no heart, you can't see or feel when you're reaching the center of it. No narrow streets, no church in the centre, not even densely build. You could be standing in the centre of Rotterdam and feel like you're on the moon, by figure of speech.
The square at the cinema pathé and the hartsuyckerflat, wich is the closest thing to a central square just makes you wanna kill yourself.
Rotterdam concists out of a bunch of middle high appartement buildings, but can't manege to get a full, dense lowrise center.
And who says a city needs a specific "heart" to be viable with obsolete, medieval narrow streets that evoke times in which people thew sewage on streets and pestilence was rampant?

If a city still has such out-of-shape streets, variable length, then fine. Otherwise, it is better to adapt a city to 21st pace. A pace which is FAST, when people move themselves by car, trains, monorails, trams, and don't have time to stare at too detailed buildings and don't care much for what is between their house and workplace as they zip fast on the surface, underground or on some elevates structure.

Dresden would be a much more cool place if it had teared down everything the bombs hadn't destroyed already, and then rebuilding the downtown completely, with some modernist church (of which there are many good examples), modernist buildings, some diametric urban trenched freeways, and glassy high-rises that obliterated the Baroque stuff which, nice as it was, had already outlived its usefulness and, once destroyed, should have been forgotten. But that is just my opinion.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 01:47 PM   #2692
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If a city still has such out-of-shape streets, variable length, then fine. Otherwise, it is better to adapt a city to 21st pace. A pace which is FAST, when people move themselves by car, trains, monorails, trams, and don't have time to stare at too detailed buildings and don't care much for what is between their house and workplace as they zip fast on the surface, underground or on some elevates structure.
Are we all supposed to be drones that only live to work?! Is that the kind of life you have or wish to have?
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Old November 15th, 2011, 03:38 PM   #2693
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Old November 15th, 2011, 03:42 PM   #2694
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The Zwinger Palace in 1900
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Old November 15th, 2011, 07:06 PM   #2695
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And who says a city needs a specific "heart" to be viable with obsolete, medieval narrow streets that evoke times in which people thew sewage on streets and pestilence was rampant?

If a city still has such out-of-shape streets, variable length, then fine. Otherwise, it is better to adapt a city to 21st pace. A pace which is FAST, when people move themselves by car, trains, monorails, trams, and don't have time to stare at too detailed buildings and don't care much for what is between their house and workplace as they zip fast on the surface, underground or on some elevates structure.

Dresden would be a much more cool place if it had teared down everything the bombs hadn't destroyed already, and then rebuilding the downtown completely, with some modernist church (of which there are many good examples), modernist buildings, some diametric urban trenched freeways, and glassy high-rises that obliterated the Baroque stuff which, nice as it was, had already outlived its usefulness and, once destroyed, should have been forgotten. But that is just my opinion.
*rolls eyes* We've tried that in the USA and clearly it didn't work! Take a look at Cleveland, Detroit, and Buffalo! Some of the best, most desirable neighborhoods in Columbus are found in the core. Places like Victorian Village, German Village, and the Short North. Those neighborhoods were saved from the short sighted planning you are in favor of!
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Old November 15th, 2011, 10:47 PM   #2696
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... It probably has asbestos and other stuff anyway to justify tear them down with dynamite, like that awesome video posted before
That is the single most insane idea I have read so far on this forum.

Blowing up an asbestos infested building is about as clever as blowing up a nuclear storage site to get rid of leaking barrels.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #2697
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*rolls eyes* We've tried that in the USA and clearly it didn't work! Take a look at Cleveland, Detroit, and Buffalo! Some of the best, most desirable neighborhoods in Columbus are found in the core. Places like Victorian Village, German Village, and the Short North. Those neighborhoods were saved from the short sighted planning you are in favor of!
No American city was planned or built after a medieval plan. Maybe, only maybe, a few areas of New York, Boston and some other places. They are not really comparable to Dresden. In any case, Americans did much of a better job with urban renewal, tearing down useless buildings from old times in whole downtown areas. Not a single bomb dropped on US soil on WW2. So it shows with proper vision, you don't even need the excuse of a sad, deadly and bloody war to revamp whole cities, tearing them apart and getting rid of the old to make room for the new.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 01:39 AM   #2698
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I think Dresden is doing a wonderful job with recreating the historic centre and urban patterns. Its wonderful to see how this open space is slowly being rebuilt. Contrary to some people here I find it quite nice that there are also some contemporary buildings created. Of course some of those buildings can be regarded as unattractive compared to the baroque buildings, but maybe in fifty years or so they remind the next generation that the area is rebuilt and not original.

The Kulturpalast is one of those buildings of which I would say preserve it, also to remember history, we shouldn't forget that Dresden was once a city in communist East Germany. Demolishing the icons from the modern era doesn't change history. The city of Berlin has demolished some landmarks of the GDR era, like the Palast der Republik and the Ahornblatt, maybe Dresden could be an example of integrating both.

If the Neumarkt area is finished it might be a good idea to look to reconstruct the urban patterns of the areas around Postplatz and Antonsplatz. In my opinion in stead of demolishing iconic buildings, demolish the concrete apartment blocks and reconstruct the traditional plan.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 04:19 AM   #2699
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No American city was planned or built after a medieval plan. Maybe, only maybe, a few areas of New York, Boston and some other places. They are not really comparable to Dresden. In any case, Americans did much of a better job with urban renewal, tearing down useless buildings from old times in whole downtown areas. Not a single bomb dropped on US soil on WW2. So it shows with proper vision, you don't even need the excuse of a sad, deadly and bloody war to revamp whole cities, tearing them apart and getting rid of the old to make room for the new.
LOL No one is saying they are the same. But what is the same is short sighted people like you advocating that historic cities like Dresden build modern garbage which has proven to a complete and utter failure time and time again. Sure Boston and Philadelphia are not as old as Dresden, and yes, they were not bombed. But both cities, as well as cities London, Washington, Toronto, St. Louis, Cleveland, and Detroit suffered the same indignities that you which to see happen in Dresden. In this country, we leveled our older neighbors in the name of “progress” and what we got were ghettos bisected by freeways and filled with unattractive, poorly planned, and poorly built modern structures. I mean have you ever been to Detroit or Cleveland?

Well I have. I lived in Cleveland for three year and worked for Sen. Browns office in one of those horrible urban renewal projects which in the 1960s, was suppose to be the savior of Downtown. In the end, all we got was acres and acres of parking and a big tall ugly office tower. The same thing happen when they leveled the Old North End in Boston. They leveled an entire neighborhood and replaced it with a cold, uninviting, unattractive, and lifeless office development interspersed with some apartment towers. And that was repeated across this country. I’m just happy Dresden and other cities in Europe have learned from our terrible mistakes!
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Old November 16th, 2011, 05:02 AM   #2700
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An ultimate, underlying question is whether the interior of buildings is more relevant than their external appearance, street design etc. I personally think people spend the majority of their time within buildings, so ultimately I'm much more concerned about how a building is lit, how the rooms are well designed, how internal circulation works, how it is cooled/heated etc.

But all that should match the outside. Here on SSC, few if any consideration is given to the interiors of a building. It is all about their external aspects, like people never actually entered those buildings.

A similar view is why I think of streets and other thoroughfares as means of transportation (on foot, bike, cars, trains, monorails etc) more than destinations, as places to "pass/drive by" much more than "to be at".

Because we don't live like in the Middle Ages, only areas preserved as museums should be kept like with 1650 design. And Dresden is no exception to that.
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