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Old November 29th, 2012, 09:06 AM   #3401
erbse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Го́голь View Post
The term "modernist architecture" is misused in this thread for just bad architecture. Most of those buildings posted have as much to do with modernism as they have to do with Baroque.
No, it's not. "Modernism" is what's sticking to the very basic principles of early modern architecture without being innovative or "current" whatsoever. While what is considered "modern" depends on your subjective view, not what architects declare as such. For me, the reconstructions and good adapting new buildings at the Neumarkt are nothing but truly modern architecture, sparking a new zeitgeist.

You could also call these lame non-adapting new buildings "neo modernist", but that's pretty much hairsplitting in my eyes.

See:
Quote:
The concept of modernism would be a central theme in these efforts. Gaining popularity after the Second World War, architectural modernism was adopted by many influential architects and architectural educators, and continues as a dominant architectural style for institutional and corporate buildings into the 21st century. Modernism eventually generated reactions, most notably Postmodernism which sought to preserve pre-modern elements, while Neomodernism emerged as a reaction to Postmodernism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_architecture
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Old November 30th, 2012, 12:08 AM   #3402
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Re: The Kulturpalast...

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Originally Posted by Piltup Man View Post
I will also say that it would at first seem difficult to make a building of this style like this look any worse, but that thing that the architect plonked on its roof manages just that.
Quite an accomplishment, eh?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 12:16 AM   #3403
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Generally agree, however, these "modernized-baroque" designs are at least in keeping with the size, dimensions, and general proportion/theme of the originals and area.
This is true, but amounts to faint praise nonetheless.

Very faint.


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I would think it a huge win if we had such buildings replace the Kulturpalast.
Perhaps, but then again an empty field would represent a significant improvement over what's there now.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 01:28 AM   #3404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
No, it's not. "Modernism" is what's sticking to the very basic principles of early modern architecture without being innovative or "current" whatsoever. While what is considered "modern" depends on your subjective view, not what architects declare as such. For me, the reconstructions and good adapting new buildings at the Neumarkt are nothing but truly modern architecture, sparking a new zeitgeist.

You could also call these lame non-adapting new buildings "neo modernist", but that's pretty much hairsplitting in my eyes.

See:

Quote:
The concept of modernism would be a central theme in these efforts. Gaining popularity after the Second World War, architectural modernism was adopted by many influential architects and architectural educators, and continues as a dominant architectural style for institutional and corporate buildings into the 21st century. Modernism eventually generated reactions, most notably Postmodernism which sought to preserve pre-modern elements, while Neomodernism emerged as a reaction to Postmodernism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_architecture
I have difficulty grasping your argument. Are you saying that everything built today is by definition modernism? Then almost the entire Baroque-inspired rebuilding of the Neumarkt should be considered modernist architecture (except full restorations like the Frauenkirche, Coselpalais, and British Hôtel).



I honestly don't see what's modernist about this building. If I had to classify it in one of the usual boxes, I would put it in the postmodernist category sooner than in the modernist category. The references to the Baroque surrounding are obvious. Look at the alternating patterns in the windows, the roof structure including those roof windows typical of its Baroque surroundings, the similar use of colour. That all sounds quite postmodernist, doesn't it? But I wouldn't say it is a good example of postmodernist architecture, I would say it's just very ugly.



This is just a typical example of postmodernist architecture. Look at its shape! How can anyone classify this as modernism?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 02:38 AM   #3405
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
An important, basic concept in urban planning is how the overall plan/look integrates with each piece. Whether the overall plan is to recreate baroque appearances from former times or build contemporary glass and steel unornamented structures, they must fit harmoniously with the surrounding structures. The Kulturpalast in its original form probably worked when it was surrounded generally by rubble and a vision of a more contemporary-looking Neumarkt in Dresden. However, time has passed the Kulturpalast by. No matter how anyone attempts to remake the building, it will end up like lipstick on a pig in the enviromment it now sits.
I mostly agree with you. I applaud the Neumarkt reconstruction project for bringing back much of the original cityscape. The full reconstructions are very nicely done. The concrete pseudo-Baroquish things on the Neumarkt are so-so, I hope the Disneylandish feel ebbs away when time passes. But in general, the project has given Dresden its Altstadt back. I visited the city in 2007 and was quite impressed.

However, I think the rebuilding of the Neumarkt can be done without leaving the Kulturpalast out of tune. The Altmarkt is not rebuilt to its former dimensions and heights like the Neumarkt was anyway. There is still plenty of room to make for a nice transition between the rebuilt Neumarkt and the modernist Kulturpalast.

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Your point is well taken, in part. The problem however is that we are dealing with post war construction that was not, in general, created with artistic design concepts in mind. Rather, the goals were speed and efficiencey. Those goals produce shelters from the elements, not prized architectural landmarks.
This is just not true. With Berlin split between East and West, Dresden, together with Leipzig perhaps, became the most important city of the DDR. As a consequence, Dresden has (had) one of the best showcases of DDR architecture in Germany. Two examples:

The so-called "Freßwürfel", destroyed partially in 1998 and fully in 2007 (though the facade is quite dirty in this picture, you can still see its beauty here):
[IMG]http://i46.************/2uxv1h1.jpg[/IMG]

Another beauty is the Centrum Warenhaus, built in 1978. It got a red appearance as Hertie and a blue appearance as Karstadt, until it was demolished in 2007:

image hosted on flickr
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Last edited by Го́голь; November 30th, 2012 at 02:43 AM.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 06:55 AM   #3406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast
Your point is well taken, in part. The problem however is that we are dealing with post war construction that was not, in general, created with artistic design concepts in mind. Rather, the goals were speed and efficiencey. Those goals produce shelters from the elements, not prized architectural landmarks.


originally posted by Го́голь
This is just not true. With Berlin split between East and West, Dresden, together with Leipzig perhaps, became the most important city of the DDR. As a consequence, Dresden has (had) one of the best showcases of DDR architecture in Germany.



Thanks for your interesting insights; good points. However, the "split" between the east and west did not effectively come to fruition until 10+ years after the end of the war. The immediate decade following the war was a huge timeframe within which the stage was set for contemporary, functional/efficient dwellings and housings that bore no resemblance to design principles of any era--baroque, modernist or any other previously know to be of historical value. The more recent examples you feature from the 70s are not a function of post-war mentality, rather the same internationalist/comptemporary design abberations we see worldwide.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 12:40 PM   #3407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Го́голь View Post
The so-called "Freßwürfel", destroyed partially in 1998 and fully in 2007 (though the facade is quite dirty in this picture, you can still see its beauty here):
[IMG]http://i46.************/2uxv1h1.jpg[/IMG]
As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #3408
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Lol, yeah.

And when it comes to Centrum Warenhaus: Its facade was incorporated in the new Centrum Galerie. So it's not really gone at all.


Anyway... This is the wrong place to continue this discussion.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 06:29 PM   #3409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
^
I'm always amazed by the crap that was thrown up in the 60s and 70s. It cant only be a communist thing, because North America has lots of that prefab, concrete and glass type construction.

I appreciate it as a reflection of the time, but i'm never upset when buildings like these meet the wrecking ball.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 11:30 PM   #3410
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One metric on which to gauge the true long term value of a building and/or design style is the extent to which miniature replicas are used for artwork pieces--paper weights, photographs, paintings, bookends, and other collectibles/keepsakes. We see many of such replicas of the Frauenkirche, Hofkirche, Semper Oper, Swinger, Hauptbahnhof, and many lost buildings, etc, but one rarely if ever sees keepsakes of the Kulturpalast, the new shopping mall, or the housing projects that took over Johannstadt and elsewhere.

A good case in point...the new Hotel Innside located on the Rampische Str with main entry on Salzgasse. The hotel was built in contemporary design, both exterior and interior. However, all the artwork on the walls inside the hotel are lovely, large photos elegantly framed featuring pre war Dresden and its architectural jewels as well as other baroque/Wilhelmine blocks and buildings. They built modern, but honor the former look. I asked the hotel manager "why the conflictory messaging? If the museum of photos are so valueable and interesting to display as the only interior design motif, why was the hotel not built to reflect this passion?" Well, he said, what is built is not necessarily what people like, it's just more efficient.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #3411
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Any news on the Stadt Rom?

Still holding my breath to see if they faithfully execute the roof of the kopfbau on Rampische Stasse, or go all bulbous on it.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #3412
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Any news on the Stadt Rom?

Still holding my breath to see if they faithfully execute the roof of the kopfbau on Rampische Stasse, or go all bulbous on it.
The drawings indicated an attempt to faithfully replicate the original, but who knows until the final nail is in place? We'll know soon, though; when I was reviewing the project 7 months ago, they were still doing massive excavations of the original foundation and catacombs. Now they're already 3-4 stories up.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #3413
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The building at the end of the rampische strasse is rising very fast.



Pictures from http://www.bausituation-dresden.com/
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Old December 17th, 2012, 10:09 PM   #3414
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Thank you for the photos. Finally, this Quartier is being finished!
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Old December 17th, 2012, 11:43 PM   #3415
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Those damn parking garages. :/
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Old December 24th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #3416
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No pics of the Neumarkt decked out in Christmas decorations?

I got to see it finally in person in June after reading about it here for so long. The last time I was in Dresden before this June was in 1992. Quite a difference!
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Old December 26th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #3417
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Merry Christmas!
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Old December 26th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #3418
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Merry Christmas to you, too


Darryl: Well, Neumarkt looks rather sparse at Christmas. Dunno what's going on there, horrible stuff.
I guess it's because the famous Striezelmarkt is right next door, and the beautiful historical and medieval market is inside the castle courtyard...





by wrba / http://www.bausituation-dresden.com/...-neumarkt.html
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:21 PM   #3419
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Another blow to the Bauhaus:

http://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/de...rbt-haben.html
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Old January 1st, 2013, 12:56 PM   #3420
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It took me several days to read the whole thread about reconstructing at Neumarkt. It was worth it. The thread gives a good overview about the development of this project in the past years. So I feel well informed about the constructions and about the problems Dresden has to face.

First I want to thank all the people, who brought together this information. And especially I want to thank Kampflamm for his great job.

I’m a great fan of reconstructing old buildings, when we lost them. If we have enough plans and pictures, that we know how they looked like, to reconstruct such a building is nothing else than bringing a piece of music back on stage. I’m also a fan of modernism. I would never say that the Bauhaus brought us in a wrong direction. I think the Neumarkt is the best example that baroque facades match perfectly with buildings of modernism.

Ok. The Swiss Hotel building is ugly. And there is at least one other ugly façade next to the Frauenkirche. But ugly buildings are no sign, that the style is ugly. They are a sign that the architect did'nt have a good taste.

So I don’t agree with the author of the article at the “Welt”, who blames Bauhaus for all the problems, we have with our post-war buildings. There are good reasons to criticize our modern cities. But we should not forget that in the twenties of the last century, there were a lot of reasons to criticize old city-planning, too. The historical centre of Dresden around Neumarkt was a dense and overpopulated area, with narrow streets without light and close backyards. In those old pictures one can see, that it was not the favourite place for the elite to live.

The Neumarkt should be more than an architectural museum for Dresden. It should return to be the city centre. That this can work, we have to bring together the architectural heritage and the needs of a modern community. We have to find a symbiosis between baroque and modernism.
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