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Old January 3rd, 2013, 04:58 AM   #3421
photolitherland
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I cant wait to see that corner building completed!
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 06:17 PM   #3422
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http://www.bausituation-dresden.com/
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 08:14 PM   #3423
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^ Well...






Source: http://www.bausituation-dresden.com/...rae-31-33.html
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Old January 4th, 2013, 08:04 PM   #3424
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It took me several days to read the whole thread about reconstructing at Neumarkt. It was worth it. The thread gives a good overview about the development of this project in the past years. So I feel well informed about the constructions and about the problems Dresden has to face.

First I want to thank all the people, who brought together this information. And especially I want to thank Kampflamm for his great job.

I’m a great fan of reconstructing old buildings, when we lost them. If we have enough plans and pictures, that we know how they looked like, to reconstruct such a building is nothing else than bringing a piece of music back on stage. I’m also a fan of modernism. I would never say that the Bauhaus brought us in a wrong direction. I think the Neumarkt is the best example that baroque facades match perfectly with buildings of modernism.

Ok. The Swiss Hotel building is ugly. And there is at least one other ugly façade next to the Frauenkirche. But ugly buildings are no sign, that the style is ugly. They are a sign that the architect did'nt have a good taste.

So I don’t agree with the author of the article at the “Welt”, who blames Bauhaus for all the problems, we have with our post-war buildings. There are good reasons to criticize our modern cities. But we should not forget that in the twenties of the last century, there were a lot of reasons to criticize old city-planning, too. The historical centre of Dresden around Neumarkt was a dense and overpopulated area, with narrow streets without light and close backyards. In those old pictures one can see, that it was not the favourite place for the elite to live.

The Neumarkt should be more than an architectural museum for Dresden. It should return to be the city centre. That this can work, we have to bring together the architectural heritage and the needs of a modern community. We have to find a symbiosis between baroque and modernism.
Excellent points and well thought out commentary. Thank you Ghost! I'm not fully sure that the Neumarkt is an examle of how modernism "matches" with baroque, however. I think the opportunity to "blend" two very different looks and appearances can yield a reasonably coexistent environment if the newest entries respect the overall tone and creative concepts of the architectural heritage of the location. Hence, horrors such as the Kulturpalast should not be allowed to be built or remain, but disappointments like the Swisshotel will evolve to a semi-acceptable status once the entire area is fully constructed.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 10:36 PM   #3425
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This is a good example. The new design fits very well to its baroque neighbours. The façade could be even more minimalist. Especially if the neighbour facades would be equipped with rich rococo stucco a cool minimalist façade would be a great contrast.

Also the modern house must be a part of the whole. That means, each construction has to respect the medieval lot size. And also the modernist buildings need a saddle roof. If the modernist facade tries to be the diva in the row, it won’t work. There can only be one diva on a stage. At Neumarkt it’s the Frauenkirche.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #3426
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This is a good example. The new design fits very well to its baroque neighbours. The façade could be even more minimalist. Especially if the neighbour facades would be equipped with rich rococo stucco a cool minimalist façade would be a great contrast.

Also the modern house must be a part of the whole. That means, each construction has to respect the medieval lot size. And also the modernist buildings need a saddle roof. If the modernist facade tries to be the diva in the row, it won’t work. There can only be one diva on a stage. At Neumarkt it’s the Frauenkirche.
The building referred to is a good example, but is not a "match" to the baroque rather, very much like the Swissotel, retains basic structural consistencies--height, roof line/shape, dormer windows, footprint--to blend with the general shape of its baroque neighbors but unnecessarily conflicts with oversized windows dimensions and over-use of glass. While it "blends" substantially better than Kulturpalast, the overt infusement of modernist themes seems more like an architectural act of hedonism rather than an attempt to credibly participate in the restoration of the historic area, diva or no diva.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 02:05 AM   #3427
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When I see a streetscape consisting of various historically styled facades all in a row, I never consider that each one of the facades is competing with all the others. However if I were to construct a similar building with a historically styled facade along side a row of similar facades, I would be accused of competing with the historic facades and I would be persuaded by modernists to produce a facade that "defers" to the others.

This continued pressure to produce deferential facades has entropied the whole building culture. We now find it difficult to do what was routine in the past.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 01:14 PM   #3428
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An authentic baroque Neumarkt never existed. It was always a place of construction. The square changed its face since Dresden was founded in the Middle Ages. Also baroque and rococo became old fashioned at the end of the 18th century. People put those ornately stucco facades in question. Rococo had no better reputation than the modernist Kulturpalast today.

With more rules in a design guideline we won’t get a more authentic result. We would get an artificial quarter.

I’ m a great fan of both, modern architecture and eclecticism. It’s the difference, that it is much more difficult to build a beautiful modernist façade. At the end of the 19th century each German city had its special floor plan. In my hometown apartments out of that time look similar. Facades of those buildings are no individual compositions of the architect. They did choose the ornament out of big catalogues. The stucco out of that time was produced in factories (in Freiburg they used sandstone). If you can’t use ornaments to design a façade, you have only the windows, the roof and the material to create a nice result. This is much more difficult, and the risk to fail is much higher.

I think we criticize modernism not for its ugliness, but for its difficulty.

Kulturpalast is the seat of the Dresden Symphonic Orchestra. It’s not only a building, one can like or not. This building has an important function for downtown Dresden. It brings people to downtown. Before and after a concert visitors go into the restaurants and bars around Neumarkt. It’s not only a question of beauty, to tear down Kulturpalast. It’s the question, how to bring live in the restored area. Without Kulturpalast and without big stores for anchor tenants Neumarkt would become an open-air museum only for tourists. There would be nothing else than souvenir stores and overpriced coffeeshops. I think the city of Dresden first has to give an answer, how they want to develop the remaining part of downtown. What shall happen with Wilsdruffer Straße and with Pirnaischer Platz? How do they want to use all this empty space east of Neumarkt? To tear down Kulturpalast could be a part of the solution for the whole development. But the existing building could also be part of such a plan.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:34 PM   #3429
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Your whole post reads a bit like a big excuse why modernism is often so ugly. But when you talk about the Kulturpalast for example. The function does not have to be abolished, it would be perfectly enough if the function would get a new building that is not purely functional, but functional and beautiful. Modernists often understand the former but utterly fail at the latter.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #3430
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Well, Kulturpalast is no icon of modernism. I also don’t think it is beautiful. But right now it has a landmark status, and I can accept this decision.

If the following generation would have generally the right to speak the final judgement about the style of their parents, any jugendstil building would have been teared down in the thirties and fifties. Let’s leave the decision about Kulturpalast to the following generations. There will be only one risk. They could think, that the building is worth to be preserved.

Our parents and grandparents destroyed so many beautiful buildings. They knocked off the stucco of ten thousands facades, and caused a terrible damage on our heritage. It happened, because they thought, it was ugly and not worth to be preserved.

We should not make the same mistake.

As long as we would have to replace Kulturpalast by another building of the same size at the same place, we wouldn’t win anything. Soon the building will not be visible from Neumarkt. It doesn’t disturb anybody anymore.

Since the costs of Elbphilharmonie at Hamburg are exploding at the moment, there will not be a political majority right now to build a new philharmonic building at the Elbe in Dresden.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 01:05 AM   #3431
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This is the conservationist argument, its a bit better than the others before but I am skeptical about it as well. If you'd argue it through one should not tear down anything, ever.

In Austria the Westbahnhof is protected as well. But it does not destroy the whole central historic district with its autistic ugliness but to the contrary has at least a modern but nice station hall (austere but with high quality stone cladding and 50's style shopping boots).

The Suedbahnhof, which was not all that different in style, was no protected luckily. So it could be simply cleared.

PS: Art Nouveau was never considered ugly here, at worst it was not considered worthy enough to maintain. Many examples of modernism are different in this regard.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #3432
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Leaving big decisions for later generations is a sure sign of immaturity and atony.


I want to see the Kulturpalast vanish in my lifetime. Period.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 01:09 PM   #3433
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Of course Jugendstil and especially historism was considered to be ugly after WW I. During National Socialism they wanted to remodel the pre-war buildings in a “homeland style”. They called it “Entschandelung” what I would translate with removal of disfigurement. This movement started right after WW I and was not finished before the sixties. It was a very German movement, and its destruction in the cities was worse than the allied bombing in WW II.

I’m not demanding that all landmarks have to be preserved for ever. I think that we need a good reason to tear down a landmark. That’s why I’m asking for a plan to develop downtown Dresden. Right now the situation around Kulturpalast is not the way you describe it. It’s not surrounded by picturesque medieval and baroque houses. When reconstruction of Neumarkt will be finished, its main façade will be towards Altmarkt. The neighbour buildings will be two rows of Stalinist architecture and two blocks of uninspired investor architecture. At Altmarkt I would not say that Kulturpalast is the ugliest building.

Your only argument to tear down Kulturpalast is its “autistic ugliness”. That’s a personnel view, but no vision for a better solution.

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Old January 7th, 2013, 01:41 PM   #3434
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Because later generations most definitely won't be prejudiced in any way, ja.


You seem to forget about the horrors of indoctrination happening in present architecture teaching, that won't do for better-doing generations to come at all..
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Old January 7th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #3435
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It’s not a question that later generations are better than the present. It’s a question of fashion. Today’s architecture is very fashionable right now, but definitely it will be old fashioned in a couple of years. So we should not leave the decision of what building is good or bad to those, who think that everything we build today is old fashioned.

My position is against indoctrination in general. I’m fighting for general tolerance.

I can’t find any difference between those who fight for a classical style and the modernists. They have only a different taste. The argumentation is intolerant on both sides:

“Tear down!”
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Old January 7th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #3436
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Old January 7th, 2013, 06:54 PM   #3437
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Ghostie: Classical architecture ain't and never will be "old-fashioned". It'll always stand the test of time.


So I'm both proving you and me right and making my point more clear.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 08:32 PM   #3438
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Ghostie: Classical architecture ain't and never will be "old-fashioned". It'll always stand the test of time.


So I'm both proving you and me right and making my point more clear.
Really? And in Prussia the royals had nothing better to do, than to replace old fashioned rococo interior with fashionable neo classical furniture and stucco at the end of the 18th century?

The only thing I know for sure is, that people who can afford such fancy architecture, in general have much more money than good taste. That's the real reason why our cities look so ugly.

And please don't call me Ghostie. GOD (GhostOfDorian) would be fine.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #3439
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Old January 9th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #3440
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If the following generation would have generally the right to speak the final judgement about the style of their parents, any jugendstil building would have been teared down in the thirties and fifties. Let’s leave the decision about Kulturpalast to the following generations. There will be only one risk. They could think, that the building is worth to be preserved.

Our parents and grandparents destroyed so many beautiful buildings. They knocked off the stucco of ten thousands facades, and caused a terrible damage on our heritage. It happened, because they thought, it was ugly and not worth to be preserved.

We should not make the same mistake.
Exactly. Right now, modernist buildings like the Kulturpalast look dated to many people. Just like Jugendstil indeed looked dated after the First World War. Now people generally consider these older styles beautiful and authentic, and don't understand why previous generations tore them down. The same questions will be asked with regard to the modernist buildings we are tearing down right now. In fact, the opposition to destruction of post-war building is growing right now. Just in time, because I don't think any achitectural era has been destroyed more than post-war modernist architecture.

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Because later generations most definitely won't be prejudiced in any way, ja.
Later generations won't see this architecture as dated or old-fashioned. For them, it will be constructed in a time in which they did not live, for them it will be historical architecture. It will evoke the same feeling of nostalgia many of you guys have with Baroque architecture. Of course there are better and worse examples of modernist architecture, just like there are better and worse examples of Baroque architecture. But I think it's indeed better that future generations make a judgement about what to preserve and what not.

By the way, I'm not sure many of those Baroque-inspired facades on the Neumarkt will stand the test of time (I'm not talking about full (facade) reconstructions like the Frauenkirche, British Hôtel, Kurländer Palais, etc., just about those concrete buildings decorated with Baroque features loosely inspired on the building that stood there before the bombardment). Now they seem to some people nice compromises between an expensive reconstruction and cheaper but ill-fitting modern architecture, but I don't think future generations will think the same. They will see an odd mix between Baroque and (dated) 21st century construction techniques.

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You seem to forget about the horrors of indoctrination happening in present architecture teaching, that won't do for better-doing generations to come at all..
Those evil architecture professors

Never knew you believed in conspiracy theories.

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Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Leaving big decisions for later generations is a sure sign of immaturity and atony.


I want to see the Kulturpalast vanish in my lifetime. Period.
Luckily you are not the one deciding that
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Last edited by Го́голь; January 9th, 2013 at 05:15 PM.
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