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Old June 18th, 2013, 10:10 AM   #3741
aitante68
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Hello Everybody! I wanted to say thanks to this site and to people who opened this thread. Thanks to them i've got to know about Neumarkt square reconstruction and about Dresden generally. I have been in Dresden for the first time two days ago and after having seen hundreds of pictures about reconstruction in this site i can finally say that in my opinion this big work has obtained a beautiful goal. Frauenkirche is wonderful of course, and i liked almost all the other buildings around the square. For me it's a great job. I hope soon they will finish with the reconstruction of other quartiers. And i hope other german cities will follow this path.
Thanks Skyscrapercity!
p.s.
I am from Italy
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Old June 18th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #3742
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just one think i didn't like: buildings around the golden statue in the neustadt are very ugly and doesn't fit well in that area, especially beacuse besides them there are nice baroque buildings. Maybe there are projects about this area?
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Old June 18th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #3743
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Originally Posted by durden5573 View Post
Lets agree that Germany in general did a poor job preserving the past, something both sides wanted to put behind them. Its refreshing to see some of these historical gems return. They were an unfortunate casualty of the politics from 1930-1990.

It will take time, but Dresden is slowly returning to the jewel on the elbe!

ps- Its so amazing how all the photos from East Germany look so Gray and bleak.
Interesting take but I don't see that impression and it's certainly not the case in reality today. The grayness and bleakness of the urban hardscapes from 1945-1990 is well known, but not today. And the weather is no more overcast than many other great places such as Chicago, New York, London, and San Francisco.
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Old June 18th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #3744
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Originally Posted by durden5573 View Post
Lets agree that Germany in general did a poor job preserving the past, something both sides wanted to put behind them. Its refreshing to see some of these historical gems return. They were an unfortunate casualty of the politics from 1930-1990.

It will take time, but Dresden is slowly returning to the jewel on the elbe!

ps- Its so amazing how all the photos from East Germany look so Gray and bleak.

The major fault for not preserving the past after WWII lies mostly with the conquering nations that had nearly full control on what to keep, blow up, preserve, restore, and build for a very long time. The die was cast early on and the damage done in the 40s and 50s remained not only as physical crap but as a blueprint for much that followed.
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Old June 18th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #3745
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Interesting take but I don't see that impression and it's certainly not the case in reality today. The grayness and bleakness of the urban hardscapes from 1945-1990 is well known, but not today. And the weather is no more overcast than many other great places such as Chicago, New York, London, and San Francisco.
Every time I've been to Dreseden and region its been blue sky, sunny and beautiful. My point was that the pictures of the DDR era are not indicative of my experience in the region. Maybe its East German film.

Interesting point on the influence of the Allied countries regarding reconstruction. We also have to remember that millions were homeless, and Commie prefab is the most efficient way to get a roof over peoples head.
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Old June 18th, 2013, 06:56 PM   #3746
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Who knows what would gave befallen Dresden, even if it had not been bombed? Certainly, more––much more––of the city would have survived until 1989, but the destruction began in e Weimar Period and was accelerated under the Nazis.

Some examples:

König-Johann-Straße and Moritz-Straße


Source: DFD


Notice the new construction in the lower part of this image, from the 1930s. Compare with the preceding image; large areas of old structures were demolished:

Source: DFD


NE corner of the Altmarkt


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Old June 18th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #3747
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Here is more information on pre-WW2 destruction:

http://www.das-neue-dresden.de/altst...g-1935-38.html

English text:


Urban renewal Dresden 1935 - 1938
Serious changes in the historical city: the Old and the New
Director: City Planning and Building Department under Paul Wolf
Construction period: _ 193 5-193 8
Address:. Salzgasse / Great Glad alley


Dresden's city architect Paul Wolf, since 1923 as chief city planner and successor, Hans Erlwein in office was aware of the pressing problems of the densely populated city of Dresden-center. Although in the first decades of the 20th Century already many buildings from the Baroque and Renaissance palaces new bank, post office, court buildings, the new city hall and more. had to give way, still lived in the remaining townhouses of the historic center and the adjacent suburbs of thousands in the meantime some degrading conditions. No, quite the opposite of today's assumption Dresden, a city with an open, loosely woven would be mainly been the major city of Dresden was in the center, especially from high-density neighborhoods. The sanitary state of emergency in these poorly ventilated areas with houses that were often referred to as "misery dwellings" was great. By economic crisis and inflation of the 1920s were very few private homeowners put their properties to the requirements of a reorganization according to the latest standards of hygiene maintained.

The juxtaposition of old city - poor, dark, dilapidated, was all too happy to be impractical, propaganda used to set characteristics of a new city, which was bright, clean, well ventilated and well organized.

Especially in Dresden, where the desire for preservation of the old city was great, the transformations were sent medially directed to increase the acceptance of the loss of old buildings.

Order, cleanliness and control

The Old Town renovation German cities were already quite Program of the Weimar Republic. During the International Hygiene Exhibition 1930 in Dresden as Paul Wolf published an article on the restoration of the old towns by road openings, ventilation and gutting of block courtyards.
In fact, the City Council took up until 1933, the neglected neighborhoods, which are defamed in the language of the Third Reich as "eyesores". They were referred to as "recovery needy" areas.
In many cases, there were no "renovations", but complete gutting whole neighborhoods with subsequent redevelopment including straight new, wider roads. But besides hygiene and health issues, it was the city planners duchaus also aims to oust unpopular groups of people from the city center and replace it with the purposes of the Nazi ideology, politically correct environment. Devastating social ills should be eliminated in this way, even to the protest potential of the working classes in the housing question to take the forefront. In addition, there were goals, such as: upgrading of urban cores, orders to the medium or higher soil craft profitability.
The rigid demolition of historic districts succeeded in the Nazi period by pressure on homeowners and municipal compensation, but was encouraged by a government rehabilitation center program. In Dresden, the Nazi mayor knew Ernst Zörner sent subsidy programs of the empire to use for the modernization of old towns.

The following are two examples Dresden urban regeneration projects that have actually been implemented:


Redevelopment area Large Glad alley

In 1930 began the Dresden Stadtbauamt under Paul Wolf with the transformation of the Great Glad street - right on the corner of Market Square. There, the department store chain De-Fa-Ka built a modern city department store, which hineinzog deep into the side road.
1935 saw here, a bit like a watercolor by Jaroslav Opl shows. The low, mostly two-to four-story buildings were demolished in 1936. For it was built five storey blocks with simple plaster facade and box bay windows in new forms of tradition, as they were common at this time. The residential blocks should exude a certain old town charm, but still be modern and bright - no dark backyards. Detail which in 1935 as Martin Cologne district was designed in the new buildings, targeted the Dresden city planning office by the new large block structures not.
For urbanity attended the Glad alley shops with large windows.
Some emphasis was placed on the use of craftsmanship in construction, with the original illustrations Dresden Volkstypen fanned the facade in the form of sandstone relief panels by Kurt Dämmig.

After completion of the term Great Glad Alley was dropped in 1937 and replaced with market street, the old name reminded too much of a bad beleumundetes area within the old city. Glad formerly resident in the festivals here include the city jail (Büttelei, Stock House) was located.



Large and Small Glad alley ruins of residential buildings in 1936, at the center of King John's Street (now Wilsdruffer), Photo: SLUB 1945

Replacement building market street (formerly the Small and Large Glad street) built 1935-37 by the Building Department of the city of Dresden. Photo: address Dresden 1938 / Volume 1


Large and Small Glad alley, graphite by Curt Winkler, 1936, houses shortly before demolition


Department store De-Fa-Ka at the Old Market, corner of Great Glad alley 1930


City layout: green: existing buildings, gray: Land Lot 19, Century
Source: www.archaeologie.sachsen.de (pdf) 2008. Differences between the old and the new alley Glad broader market street you can clearly see when you compare this plan in detail with the situation before the transformation - eg in a map of in 1882.



Map, 1882, east of the Old Market, a narrow alleyways network runs through the old town. 1) Large Glad lane 2) Small
Glad lane 3) White Alley, 4) Large Kirchgasse / early installation of King John's Street in 1885 was a
first in the direction of modernization functioning city.

www.deutschefotothek.de - View of Holy Cross Church and Town Hall against Pirnaische suburb
1925 in magnification can well recognize the progress of the Great Glad alley.

Tip: Documentary " demolition of old houses in the city center of Dresden "
Field of small and great Glad alley) Dresden-Altstadt, 1936 SLUB / German photo library

Document: excavations 1955 Great Glad alley / street market
Here you can see very well in the enlargement, as the road widened and straightened in 1937
was.

In 1885 was awarded the " Breakthrough project meant "King John's Road from Old Market Square Pirnaischer also to a broadening of the Little Glad alley and Weber Street. The concept, however, was only implemented in the new wide junctions to the two inland district roads. Photo: 1910




Salt field alley

Also, the tight quarters around the nested Rampische road salt & alley was barely acceptable under modern hygienic criteria for residents. Paul Wolf stated in an article in DBZ 12/1938 and the dilapidated state of the vacancy of the residential area, the neighborhood has become a marginalized social groups. Even the local press Dresdner tried old and new against each other:


Dresden's Latest News from March 27, 1936

The article intentioned propaganda Schiller quote from "William Tell" (IV, 2) represents the low skew, old buildings from the Renaissance period against a bright, bürgerhaus similar residential buildings with bay window. In fact, many historic buildings in the city were in the 19th Century, when the rich middle class moved to the green residential suburbs of Dresden, has hardly been modernized. Thus, the dilapidation stabbed particularly striking. The second view signaled the new building block adapts to the neighboring buildings in height and roof shape, while it is hardly to call Total fragmented:


New buildings 1934-36 (highlighted in blue) in an aerial view of
. 1944 Photo: German Photo Library / SLUB

The roofscape was not in this case here with
individual plots roofs constructed but runs
over the entire length of the block. However, the house-
facade has been designed with three different articulating bay windows and plastic jewelry. All backyard buildings were torn down to the fire walls of the neighboring properties. This massive intervention in the real building stock represents a heterogeneous structure of "Old Town" dar. Ideals of unity, facade appearance and "Dresden flair" were associated with modern urban health needs.

The building department built two-and three-room apartments with kitchen and toilet. Especially the water flush in the toilet faced the dry-abortion a hygienic progress dar. on balconies on the south side in the court was waived.

City planner Paul Wolf remodeling plans for this area also saw before the demolition of the townhouses Rampische road 19-23, but could not be implemented due to insistence of Dresdner historic preservation. In addition, almost all narrow backyards should be demolished in this district.
On the street he gave salt expansion plans for a second Construction phase. See photo after 1936
Source: Salt Lane redevelopment plan 1933/1935 (map), in the Town Planning Department of the city of Dresden, image location / Dia 1385)

In a model photo from 1936 can be seen today as plans for gutting the designated area on the Neumarkt district III followed a very loose Quarter courtyard buildings. Link to Federal Archives (Image P065145)
Conditions in some cases extremely small backyards seemed no longer capable of rehabilitation. Only the representative town houses, on the Neumarkt were restored in 1936 as part of a propaganda measure.

But tend to disappear in favor of the Picturesque entnostalgisierter modernization. If you look at the plans Paul Wolf for the former city planning in 1939 to, one suspects, as many of the old buildings still standing up for grabs. Especially the densely built neighborhood courtyards, gardens former should be gutted. The real fabric of the historic Dresden would, however, apart from some outstanding monuments and tourist especially relevant streets, has been gradually replaced by new urban blocks and wider roads. Especially on the newly designed main roads that would have drawn a rigid modern infrastructure through the ancient suburbs, historic structure would inevitably come to abort. See plan 1938

The marketing for the baroque city of Dresden as "tourism" as it was called then, but was staged deliberately. Besides Kennel (up to 1934) - and Frauenkirche restoration (1938-43) asked one building of the famous Baroque architects out, such as the house Pöppelmann in the Castle Road 32, on the facade of 1936, a larger than life sandstone figure of the famous kennel architect was installed. In contrast, in Dec. 1936, the name was lifted Jüdenhof, also referred to as the Neumarkt area.


Fish courtyard

For example: for the area around the fish yard / near Freiberger Platz saw Wolf's plans before drastic modernization. The fish courtyard would have been extended by about three times and would then result in a rectangular shape. Even a nine-story high-rise building (with a arcade) was planned. All of the historic buildings had been demolished. The course was designed north on something completely new road layout.
In addition to the dilapidated suburban development prostitution was a thorn in the Fischhofgasse there was a haunted red light district. In addition, large parts of the area were traditionally strong quarter of Dresden social democratic labor movement.
The seaside fish courtyard Central Hall as the Socialist Workers Party of Germany had held meetings of its Second Congress in 1871. Also a reason for the Nazi planners to want to shape the court, although he was employed as a fishing village village square of the oldest places of Dresden (since about 1480). However, the still existing medieval irregular plot structure did not match the stylization of Dresden as "baroque."
Paul Wolf said in an article on "healthy city" in 1931: "In addition to the requirements of hygiene and building inspection type safety, there are also requirements of the traffic and the economy, forcing the removal of old residential neighborhood." Was (1) Published also the photo of that city model with the "planned renovation breakthrough".


Dresden Wilsdruffer suburb Fischhofgasse, postcard circa 1910 from the series: "Old Dresden"


Fish courtyard north of the road in a plot of Anne in 1882. In 1936, the dense development had mancherorten further compacted so that some unreasonable living conditions were created.


"Redesign of Dresden city" - July 7th, 1938

As part of the complete redesign of the city center Paul Wolf took the opportunity to tear down the unpopular Wilsdruffer suburbs in large part to let new build and rigorously between Wettin Anne Church Square and the entire district. The plan called for a series of "road breakthroughs in conjunction with promenades" before. Especially a wide between the main station an extended Dippoldiswalder place to a new edgy place that would have cut the road Schwerin was now provided the highlight of this quarter. This plan was already the end of 1938 changed again because the connections had to be re-added to the highway. With the onset of World War II in 1939, the remodeling plans soon came to a halt.

-------------------------------------------------- -----------

Brief comparison to a building in Leipzig on Locust Place, which was built in 1937 and also the historical suburb of buildings from the 18th and 19 Century replaced. (Wall paintings: 1 , 2 ) The large urban charm of residential building with arcaded shops on the ground floor and bulwark-like base area wants to consciously set powerfully at the exposed corner location opposite the Grassi Museum in scene.
Photo : TK 2011

It is noteworthy that the Dresden city architect Paul Wolf in 1930 in an article about Old Town renovation of a need for "defensive measures .. in air raids .. old towns" writes: "The Iron and concrete construction, but especially the skeleton appears to be particularly suited to by Explosions caused sudden bursts of air to resist. " (2) New buildings should receive the sturdy construction of "breakthrough roads" in the old towns.

The rigid policy of "rehabilitation center" in the Third Reich was not regarded quite homogeneous in the academic assessment. In the article "On the Question of the Old Town renovation" by Henryk Jasieński (Kraków), the Polish author expressed criticism of the planned demolition of inner city, some valuable buildings. The higher redevelopment reaching the human block houses instead of more sun and less light it follows in a "worsening of previous exposure and tanning conditions".
The reason for the slums and shantytowns would in the long neglect by the landlord, the ruthless redevelopment of the formerly open courtyards and especially in the overcrowding of dwellings, where often several families shared a small apartment. Would the old buildings torn down and replaced by new buildings, would these poor people in shantytowns on the outskirts or in homeless shelters. He concludes that: "Destruction houses can be justified only in very few exceptional cases (...) her termination is socially and economically wasteful and harmful nonsense.." (3)
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Old June 18th, 2013, 07:28 PM   #3748
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The major fault for not preserving the past after WWII lies mostly with the conquering nations that had nearly full control on what to keep, blow up, preserve, restore, and build for a very long time.
ORLY? Any arguments to support that?

For instance, in the British zone the only building destroyed for political reasons was IIRC the Spandau Prison, destroyed after the last inmate, Rudolf Hoess, committed suicide in 1987. The reason for destruction was to prevent neo-Nazis from gathering and celebrating their "heroes".

The construction and urbanist authorities in W. Germany from 1945 onwards were fully German, as well as masterplans for better (or worse) reconstruction of the cities. It was due to decisions of locals whether or not the cities were reconstructed. For instance, Nurnberg and Munich were rebuilt in quite conservative fashion (on existing building lots), whereas Frankfurt a. Main - in purely modern way, as a residential district.

And fate of many buildings depended on quick (or not-so-quick) provisional repair soon after the war. In housing shortages, every standing building was worth a lot. If I'm not mistaken, Nurnberg or Wurzburg's first phase of rebuilt was done mostly by women who didn't wait until their husbands/sons/brothers come back from POW camps and did the job themselves - as the result they created fait accompli and prevented from dismantling the ruins and building a new "modern" residential district from the scratch. So also the element of coincidence and accident is visible.

Moving on: local authorities in West Germany were established throughout 1946-47 (states), in 1949 already the federation (Bundesrepublik) was created with possibility to govern its cultural policy (of course, without imperialist and antisemitic excesses, but it has nothing to do with reconstructions). Although it wasn't fully sovereign country, the Allied control was restricted to preventing Germans dangerous play with matches, so Allies prevented from remilitarisation, did some trials agains Nazi criminals, etc. But most of economic, cultural and construction policy was fully in German hands (and, as future showed, was dealt with great skill). In 1955 Western Germany regained sovereignty.

Not to mention that the reaction against old architecture and the modernist revolution was especially strong in Germany. It wasn't foreign phenomenon either. So called Entstuckung started in 1920s and was spreading up to 1960s - and it was even exported: (OT: unfortunately in Poland, especially in Warsaw, our architects were eager to pick this Entstuckung up Fortunately for German PR, nobody in Poland associates this way of "modernising" buildings with Germans, rather with Commies EOT).

Among the greatest modern architects of these times were Germans, no doubt Gropius or Mies van der Rohe wanted to leave their mark on the reconstruction. What is also important, Bauhaus movement wasn't so discredited as neo-classical Speer and Co. After all, it was Speer who was projecting for Hitler, whereas Bauhaus architects were emigrating to the USA, UK, Palestine, Switzerland and were persecuted in Germsany. So they won this war morally - or at least that's how they were being perceived. No doubt they took the booty* afterwards

* such as possibility to create Hansaviertel, Gropiusstadt, etc.

And I wouldn't blame Germans for this (heavily criticised now by us) unwillingness to reconstruct: both in W. and E. Germany. Taking into account how deep Germany lied and how destroyed it was in 1945 I can fully understand the people, who didn't give pity to picturesque monuments of ancient ages, while Germany was starving and homeless. So they build houses as cheap and as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, IMHO, it went too far, and I think at present Germany (satiated and living comfortably) is restoring the balance (congratulations). But in 1945 there were more important needs. How it goes in Brecht's Opera?: Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral

Well, cheap modernism is "das Fressen". Reconstructions are "die Moral"

P.S. SonOfThomp has a very good point.
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Old June 18th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #3749
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Interesting point on the influence of the Allied countries regarding reconstruction. We also have to remember that millions were homeless, and Commie prefab is the most efficient way to get a roof over peoples head.

Industrial "Plattenbau" started around 1965. Until that time many buildings were built in a tradional way with bricks and a pitched roof. We call them "Altneubauten" (old new buildings) Real industrial production of "Commieblock" started around 1965. It is not true that "millions were homeless" at that time. The GDR lost about 2.5 Million people compared to 1949. The commie blocks were built because there was not enough money to renovate the old buildings (Gründerzeit quarters, Altstadt). The plan was to tear down most of the old buildings and to replace them with commie blocks.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 02:24 AM   #3750
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Who knows what would gave befallen Dresden, even if it had not been bombed? Certainly, more––much more––of the city would have survived until 1989, but the destruction began in e Weimar Period and was accelerated under the Nazis
I think that's a really good point. It's sometimes too easy to look at old black and white photos and think 'if it hadn't been for the war then we'd still have all those wonderful old buildings'. I'm not totally sure that is true. As you said, we would've had a lot more (and not just in Dresden but across Europe), but I'm pretty sure that the impact of Modernism would've resulted in massive demolitions anyway, irrespective of World War Two. It happened in many towns and cities that weren't affected by the war at all. Winchester in England was barely scratched by the war and yet large parts of its centre were destroyed in the 1950s and 1960s. The same goes for Worcester. And even before the war, in the UK at least, we had slum clearances that probably wiped out more medieval buildings than the war itself. Who knows.

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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:39 AM   #3751
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These are some valid points. But have a look at Prague, it shows how much could have possibly survived. But then, it would have been the big question how the heritage would have been handled. If city authorities would have unleashed a Corbusian nightmare on the old quarters, the result could have been worse than a whole world war.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:44 AM   #3752
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Industrial "Plattenbau" started around 1965. Until that time many buildings were built in a tradional way with bricks and a pitched roof. We call them "Altneubauten" (old new buildings) Real industrial production of "Commieblock" started around 1965. It is not true that "millions were homeless" at that time. The GDR lost about 2.5 Million people compared to 1949. The commie blocks were built because there was not enough money to renovate the old buildings (Gründerzeit quarters, Altstadt). The plan was to tear down most of the old buildings and to replace them with commie blocks.
Not only Communists built them (here you have an areal picture of northern Vienna: http://img38.exs.cx/img38/1856/1323218ste0af.jpg) and they were not only built because the country was bankrupt but simply because the aim was to create affordable living space, and by that improve the life of many workers. That concept started already in the 1920s. Have a look a the Karl Marx or Friedrich Engels Hof in Vienna. They are not Plattenbauten but they are an early large scale manifestation of that concept.

The Plattenbauten were flawed for various reasons but it was more than just saving money out of necassity or even madness.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:00 PM   #3753
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Source: http://www.bausituation-dresden.com/
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Old June 21st, 2013, 06:13 PM   #3754
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These are some valid points. But have a look at Prague, it shows how much could have possibly survived.
Prague puts to the lie the notion that older European inner cities were "unlivable". It seems like a rather nice place to me.

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If city authorities would have unleashed a Corbusian nightmare on the old quarters, the result could have been worse than a whole world war.
Yes, but the body count would have been a bit lower.
BUT
you have a point. Remember Most?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHExc...eature=related

The bottom falls out at 4:09.

Sorry if I strayed Off Topic, but it seems relevant ....
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Old June 21st, 2013, 10:25 PM   #3755
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Isn't it quite ironic that the two most beautiful German cities in the range between 300.000 and 1.000.000 inhabitants are both eastern German cities, Dresden and Leipzig?

I respect the efforts that have been done in both cities during GDR times while economic figures were bad. In Leipzig they reconstructed for ex.: the main train station, the old guild hall, the "Alte Waage" at the market square and the stock exchange building at the "Naschmarkt".

That doesn't change the fact that huge parts of these cities were heavily neglected and in a rather fatal condition at the time as the wall had fallen.

At the other hand the development of the inner cities in "Old West-Germany" was in general more negative than positive. Just take look on the city centres of Stutgart, Hannover, Cologne, Pforzheim, and all teh look-a-likes.

But if one preferes to keep on walking on cold war paths than he will have difficulties to acknowledge that not everything in the DDR was horrible and everything in shiny Capitalistia is always good and "alternativlos".

Habe die Ehre
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Old June 21st, 2013, 10:57 PM   #3756
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Isn't it quite ironic that the two most beautiful German cities in the range between 300.000 and 1.000.000 inhabitants are both eastern German cities, Dresden and Leipzig?
Says who and if so why is that ironic? I happen to disagree with you and I am sure it isn't communists monney that brings Dresden back to its old glory


Quote:
But if one preferes to keep on walking on cold war paths than he will have difficulties to acknowledge that not everything in the DDR was horrible
Yes it was
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Old June 21st, 2013, 11:04 PM   #3757
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No one here is arguing that everything was great in West Germany while everything was horrible in the east. Nonetheless the economic model of the GDR was a failure; by 1990 East German cities were literally falling apart. A decade later and a lot of the region's architectural heritage would have been gone. The only thing that saved it and has made the reconstruction of many fantastic buildings possible was reunification and the introduction of a better economic model.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 07:17 PM   #3758
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Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
No one here is arguing that everything was great in West Germany while everything was horrible in the east. Nonetheless the economic model of the GDR was a failure; by 1990 East German cities were literally falling apart. A decade later and a lot of the region's architectural heritage would have been gone. The only thing that saved it and has made the reconstruction of many fantastic buildings possible was reunification and the introduction of a better economic model.
Good points, but more than just an economic failure, the DDR was a social, political, and cultural failure as well, along with the rest of the soviet bloc. While there may be some positive aspects to almost every negative and dire failure, it's pretty close to being fair and with only slight hyperbole to claim "...everything was horrible in the east".

That said, the DDR did give us Katarina Witt which counts for a lot.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 09:59 PM   #3759
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Good points, but more than just an economic failure, the DDR was a social, political, and cultural failure as well, along with the rest of the soviet bloc. While there may be some positive aspects to almost every negative and dire failure, it's pretty close to being fair and with only slight hyperbole to claim "...everything was horrible in the east".

That said, the DDR did give us Katarina Witt which counts for a lot.
How about economic failure of capitalism from 2007 and rise of communist China?
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Old June 25th, 2013, 10:06 PM   #3760
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How about economic failure of capitalism from 2007 and rise of communist China?
In your communist paradise people are so happy, that you have to shoot everybody in his back, who tries to escape.
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