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Old October 7th, 2013, 11:47 PM   #4061
SonOfThomp
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
And if someone wants to destroy commieblocks, there are still plenty of them on the other side of St. Petersburger Strasse.
I don't think the point here is 'to destroy commieblocks'. The problem with Stalinist or Modernist architecture is not that it has no right to exist, it is that it is out of synch with the Neumarkt aesthetic, and therefore should not be there.

I agree with that view. Dresden Neumarkt, reconstructed historical area. The rest of Dresden, modern city.

When one strongly advocates such architectural styles within the Neumarkt reconstruction area––when there is an abundance of both that style and the space to put it in, outside the Neumarkt––it just seems bit Trollish, wouldn't you say? And how constructive is that?
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Old October 7th, 2013, 11:50 PM   #4062
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
19th century rent-houses. Thousands (if not thousands, than certainly hundreds) of them (even better, because original and standing) one can find on the other side of the river (Elbe).
The Stalinist blocks that are in that area now - thousands and thousands of them, all over the city.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 03:21 AM   #4063
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I don't think the point here is 'to destroy commieblocks'. The problem with Stalinist or Modernist architecture is not that it has no right to exist, it is that it is out of synch with the Neumarkt aesthetic, and therefore should not be there.
I couldn't disagree more.

Photo no. 1:

Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_altmarkt.JPG

On the left you have the Stalinist "historic creation" of Altmarkt (it is not a reconstruction). On the right there is mediocre 1950s Stalinist apartment building of Wilsdrufferstrasse. IMHO both of them are good examples of "architecture of context". Both of them create "city-like" impression and are built according to principles of classical urbanism (although Wilsdruffer was widened). Of course, the building on the left are better looking than that on the right. I agree with kampflamm that it would be better if Wilsdruffer looked more similar to the Old Market. But the way it is, it also works.

Photo no. 2

Source: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med...nh-dresden.jpg

Another example of "architecture of the context". Building with relatively conservative shape, high roof, clearly get on well with classical Saxon barocco, despite being modern. IMHO it also fits well.

Of course it would be better if Altmarkt and Wildsrufferstrasse actually were reconstructed. Well, it would be even better if they hadn't been destroyed in the first place But since Dresden was destroyed and afterwards these 1950s buildings were created and are standing now - I don't see the point in destroying them as long as there are plenty of empty building lots inside Old Town of Dresden.

More important -there are plenty of empty building lots on the border of reconstructed Old Town - Rathausplatz, St. Petersburger Strasse, perhaps Marienstrasse and Georgplatz. Their importance is even larger, as they will help to connect the reconstructed city fabric of Old Dresden with the fabric of Pirnaische Vorstadt, Seevorstadt West (all right, there isn't much of that fabric) and all that stuff that surrounds the Old Town. It will help to solve the problem mentioned by steppenwolf: to make Old Town more liveable and strongly connected to the rest of the city. Because now it has some features of an island.

That is the area where Dresdners should IMHO concentrate their zeal towards reconstructions
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Old October 8th, 2013, 04:51 AM   #4064
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Neumarkt ≠ Altmarkt

That is not entirely unreasonable, and I have much less of a problem with the actual Stalinist buildings on the Altmarkt than with the newer ones, which look like they are made of oversized Legos.

I adhere to my assertion, though, that the Neumarkt project would best be realized fully, rather than as a patchwork of historical reconstructions, old blocks, and the odd, correctly-proportioned-but-modernist-anyway house dropped here and there for no apparent reason. As you said, there is SO MUCH ROOM for new ideas to be realized. I just don't see why they have to be inserted into the expensive reconstruction project, or banal "stop-gap" housing solutions left in place. It's like slapping a blues guitar solo in the middle of a Bach cantata.

As far as an old, European city center not being 'lively', don't tell that to the citizens of Praha.

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Old October 8th, 2013, 01:28 PM   #4065
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Mruczek: You just stated many things that are correct. But the main reason why any attempt to create a connection of the Stalinist Altmarkt and areas surrounding it to the Neumarkt will fail is precisely that: the modern blocks at Wilsdruffer Strasse. They just need to go. If you're there, you can virtually feel how they're out of place. It's not just the architecture, but mainly their position and structure, it's like a wall upfront.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:02 PM   #4066
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Mruczek: You just stated many things that are correct. But the main reason why any attempt to create a connection of the Stalinist Altmarkt and areas surrounding it to the Neumarkt will fail is precisely that: the modern blocks at Wilsdruffer Strasse. They just need to go. If you're there, you can virtually feel how they're out of place. It's not just the architecture, but mainly their position and structure, it's like a wall upfront.
I haven't felt it while visiting Dresden. On the contrary, I wish Stalinist ensembles in Warsaw were kept in such state as in Dresden or Berlin. Still, I certainly will not die for these modern blocks

But: if they have to go, what will be on their place? The street has been widened and IIRC plenty of buildings at Wilsdruffer were 19th century ordinary rent-houses. Costs of pulling down the buildings + complete remodelling of Wilsdruffer will be enormous comparing to fixing problems on the empty lots. So I am wondering about feasibility.

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As far as an old, European city center not being 'lively', don't tell that to the citizens of Praha.
Don't shoot the messenger: I am merely commenting the posts of other users, who are anxious about "island effect" regarding Old Town of Dresden surrounded by pseudo-highways and isolated from the Vorstadts and the risk of creating skansen for tourists. I agree that there is such risk.

Regarding Praha: there is no such dilemma, mostly because the whole Praha is like one gigantic old town (five old towns to be precise), not to mention that it hasn't been destroyed. Anyway, it's better not to compare cities under reconstruction to such pearl as Praha, because it only creates tension and frustration
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Old October 8th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #4067
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Well, one of the blocks would have to go to make way for an authentic reconstruction of "Hotel Stadt Rom" and its adjacent buildings, anyway.


http://www.neumarkt-dresden.de/hotel-stadt-rom.html




http://www.dresden.de/de/08/01/brenn...3/06_Hotel.php



But indeed I fear we won't see further reconstructions at Wilsdruffer in these times.
I'm just saying, that in the mid-/long-run, they need to go and get replaced by smaller lot buildings, giving Dresden its very heart back.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 07:05 PM   #4068
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Well, one of the blocks would have to go to make way for an authentic reconstruction of "Hotel Stadt Rom" and its adjacent buildings, anyway.
Perfect. Then, the Palais de Saxe can be rebuilt, backing up to the already-reconstructed British Hotel.


I have no belief or faintest hope that the building below would ever be rebuilt.
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
I will say that the Grunderzeit structures in the Innenstadt were rather more grand than any that still survive, except perhaps the building on the NE corner of Bautzner-Straße and Rothenburger-Straße.

But perhaps the style of the buildings adjacent to the Landhaus could be used. It is unpretentious, and harmonious.


Image © www.heimatsammlung.de

Last edited by SonOfThomp; October 8th, 2013 at 07:22 PM. Reason: added pictures
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Old October 8th, 2013, 07:21 PM   #4069
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Here is a thread on the creation of König-Johann-Straße in the 1880s.
Guaranteed to make Mruczek's skin crawl!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1607530
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Old October 9th, 2013, 07:10 PM   #4070
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I know, I know:

This 'thing' really is awful. It would be ugly in ANY setting, much less where it is: like a cane toad on a birthday cake.

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Image: fotocommunity-dresden
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Old October 9th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #4071
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What the GDR era preservationists overlook in their mission to support keeping those structures are the aspects of beauty and integration. Just because something has history doesn't make it historical. The GDR and Stalinist buildings served a purpose that no longer has any meaning--not beauty, not integration, not historic value, not architectural value.

Conversely, the lost buildings and their appearance meet all those criteria in addition to restoring what would have been a premier, global site of immense architectural value.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 10:05 PM   #4072
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The preceeding buildings to those commiecrapthings had more history for the sole reason of their longer existence, anyway...
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Old October 9th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #4073
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Anything built after ww2 for the most part is shit. Anything pre war for the most part was built with craftsmanship and style. I say tear down every modernist building and replace them with what was there before.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:02 PM   #4074
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i´m not sure if it is wise to wipe out the GDR-history of Dresden. Sure the Kulturpalast is really, really ugly, but so is for example the Deutsche Oper in West Berlin and no one wants to tear it down...(and hell it should...)
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:10 PM   #4075
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O, it was that Deutsche Oper where conductor died during Aida in 2001!
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #4076
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i´m not sure if it is wise to wipe out the GDR-history of Dresden. Sure the Kulturpalast is really, really ugly, but so is for example the Deutsche Oper in West Berlin and no one wants to tear it down...(and hell it should...)
The Berlin Philharmonie is also quite horrible, and both it and the Deutsche Oper were controversial designs (the Oper much less so) when planned. Many would like to see these buildings replaced, but the situation in Berlin is much different than in Dresden, particularly the Altstadt of Dresden. If the Philharmonie, for example, had been built in the Lustgarten, it would most definitely be the target of great protest.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 12:31 AM   #4077
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BUT...Lustgarten was east...so the idea to built a west-berlin philharmony in the east is totally stupid....actually sharoun built it in a way that should show the east "we don´t like you"....and actually exactly that´s the way the building now doesn´t fit to that area....it used to stand at the boarder between east and west...and now in the middle of an obviously capitalistic country...

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Old October 10th, 2013, 12:39 AM   #4078
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Anything built after ww2 for the most part is shit. Anything pre war for the most part was built with craftsmanship and style. I say tear down every modernist building and replace them with what was there before.
Ahh, if only. But, as Mruczek said, "if only it hadn't been bombed in the first place ...". Or something similar, I am paraphrasing. But, pre-war Dresden is gone and will never return. What CAN be done is to recreate its historic centre, and that is being accomplished. Why this gets such stubborn resistance from modernists eludes me, as it is a small area of the whole city.

I think everything north of Wilsdruffer-Strße should be reconstructed in a historical style, eventually.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 05:30 AM   #4079
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What the GDR era preservationists overlook in their mission to support keeping those structures are the aspects of beauty and integration. Just because something has history doesn't make it historical.
What is it then? Black hole? Scotch mist?

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The GDR and Stalinist buildings served a purpose that no longer has any meaning--not beauty, not integration, not historic value, not architectural value.
You are trying to convince us that Kulturpalast is no longer needed as there is no more culture in Germany? That residential blocks in GDR are no longer necessary as there are no residents?

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Ahh, if only. But, as Mruczek said, "if only it hadn't been bombed in the first place ...". Or something similar, I am paraphrasing. But, pre-war Dresden is gone and will never return. What CAN be done is to recreate its historic centre, and that is being accomplished.
Precisely. And I'd put stress to connecting this re-created historic Altstadt with Vorstadts in order to make everything more in one piece

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I think everything north of Wilsdruffer-Strße should be reconstructed in a historical style, eventually.
But what does Wilsdruffer St. actually means? Before 1950s it was 2 times shorter and 3 times narrower
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Old October 10th, 2013, 04:05 PM   #4080
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What is it then? Black hole? Scotch mist?

You are trying to convince us that Kulturpalast is no longer needed as there is no more culture in Germany? That residential blocks in GDR are no longer necessary as there are no residents?
Yes, ha, ha, ha.

Once again, you didn't grasp the meaning.

And I'm not trying to convince you of anything; too entrenched in your own dogma.
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