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Old October 10th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #4081
SonOfThomp
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Precisely. And I'd put stress to connecting this re-created historic Altstadt with Vorstadts in order to make everything more in one piece
That would be ideal, but attempting to do so my spoiling the harmony of the Neumarkt reconstruction project by inserting modernist architecture into it randomly will not accomplish this. Nor will stubbornly preserving mediocre (at best) examples of a dismal, failed-state-dictated aesthetic.

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But what does Wilsdruffer St. actually means? Before 1950s it was 2 times shorter and 3 times narrower
Wilsdruffer-Stra▀e as its boundaries exist today.
The utilitarian blocks west of the Landhaus, and the Cane Toad Palast could/should be demolished, and replaced with something that doesn't clash with the Neumarkt, or serve as a reminder of 45 years of Life Under Heel.
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Last edited by SonOfThomp; October 10th, 2013 at 05:46 PM. Reason: ty[pos
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Old October 10th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #4082
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Yes, ha, ha, ha.

Once again, you didn't grasp the meaning.

And I'm not trying to convince you of anything; too entrenched in your own dogma.
Do you think that maybe he's rattling your chain?
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Old October 10th, 2013, 10:19 PM   #4083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
That would be ideal, but attempting to do so my spoiling the harmony of the Neumarkt reconstruction project by inserting modernist architecture into it randomly will not accomplish this. Nor will stubbornly preserving mediocre (at best) examples of a dismal, failed-state-dictated aesthetic.
If reconstruction of Neumarkt is according to the map I fail to recognise how the Kulturpalast is spoinling harmony of the reconstruction. Kulturpalast will be not visible from Neumarkt.



Regarding the Kulturpalast itself I have mixed feelings. If there is possibility to fully restore pre-war street grid together with its buildings - then go for it. But to exchange modern architecture from 1960s with modern architecture from 2010s seems pointless to me.

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Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
Wilsdruffer-Stra▀e as its boundaries exist today.
The utilitarian blocks west of the Landhaus, and the Cane Toad Palast could/should be demolished, and replaced with something that doesn't clash with the Neumarkt, or serve as a reminder of 45 years of Life Under Heel.
What's the point in demolishing buildings, if reconstructions cannot be established on their spot? To "improve history"? GDR also did it
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Old October 10th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #4084
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Archńologische Grabungen Grabungen Landhausstra▀e/Friesengasse | Quartier IV/3









http://www.bausituation-dresden.de/
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Old October 10th, 2013, 11:20 PM   #4085
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
If reconstruction of Neumarkt is according to the map I fail to recognise how the Kulturpalast is spoinling harmony of the reconstruction. Kulturpalast will be not visible from Neumarkt.


How about THIS?
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If not 'historical', which in the case of the 19th century buildings I posted earlier would never be approved, then perhaps in this style, which I suggested before?

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Regarding the Kulturpalast itself I have mixed feelings.
I don't, It looks like a Cane Toad on a Birthday cake, and should be demolished simply because it is so unsurpassingly UGLY.
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If there is possibility to fully restore pre-war street grid together with its buildings - then go for it. But to exchange modern architecture from 1960s with modern architecture from 2010s seems pointless to me.
I agree, and find both GDR-era and modernist buildings to be inappropriate north of Wilsdruffer-Str▀e.

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What's the point in demolishing buildings, if reconstructions cannot be established on their spot?
Ahh, but they CAN be. Just look a little to the north of the area we are discussing!
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Old October 10th, 2013, 11:21 PM   #4086
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The last image makes the point about 'why not just leave the 60s modern buildings in place?'

They are characterless. They are uninteresting. They are without an endearing or enduring style. They are unimaginative and bland. The are only utilitarian. They look like dormitories on campuses or prison complexes, used for rotation of tenants year after year.

Such have no place in and amongst works of art.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 11:27 PM   #4087
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I am not a Dresden native. I don't get to see the Kulturpalast every day in the historical center. I think the area could be made much better while having the Kulturpalast fixed up to house a business or government agency. I mean, now that you have that building, why not make it prettier by re-cladding it or doing something interesting with the outside?

I think we must be careful with tearing down history. I understand the kulturpalast recalls communist rule, but leaving it can be a strong statement: "You built it under your rule, we keep out now for other functions under ours." If there are offensive symbols that remind you of oppressive rule inside or outside the building, and consensus say should be removed, remove them and take them somewhere else for storage, but leave the building.

I think the phrase: "Do unto others as you would like to be done unto you" fits this idea.

Harmony between modern and old is what we need, and that harmony starts by connecting them through densification of the city center and perhaps parks and improved public spaces between them. I think the car parking in fron of the Kulturpalast (the old Altmarkt) should be developed into a full fledged park, perhaps in the classical style, with a statue in the middle resembling the one it used to have. And as for the area in Dresden inside the really wide ring road that surround the city center, it should be densified to historical standards. In satellite imagery, I can see a lot of space that is just left to grass that could be used to densify the city center.

Respectful preservation might be the solution.
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Last edited by CF221; October 10th, 2013 at 11:46 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 01:36 AM   #4088
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Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
How about THIS?
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Is it re-creation of pre-war street grid or just the present-day fantasy about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
If not 'historical', which in the case of the 19th century buildings I posted earlier would never be approved, then perhaps in this style, which I suggested before?
Dresden lost hundreds of miracles of 17th and 18th century barocco and you are proposing to spend public money exchaning one semi-historism from 1950s with another semi-historism from 2010s?

As I said: if reconstruction is possible to be done on the spot (such as Palais de Saxe) - I definitely agree. If one wants to exchange Stalinist semi-historism with present semi-historism - that's waste of money, IMHO.

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I agree, and find both GDR-era and modernist buildings to be inappropriate north of Wilsdruffer-Str▀e.
I find anything other than reconstruction inappropriate in this place. If reconstruction is feasible, let it go, if not, let it stay the way it is.

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Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
Ahh, but they CAN be. Just look a little to the north of the area we are discussing!
Can they? Please compare today's street grid with pre-war one. It is available in the very same thread you've strarted.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 02:08 AM   #4089
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What will build on this plot of land?
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Old October 11th, 2013, 02:25 AM   #4090
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One reconstructed facade, right next to British Hotel, and the rest will be build in a semi modern/traditional way. Visualisations looked good to me. I do not know where to find them though, sorry.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #4091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Is it re-creation of pre-war street grid or just the present-day fantasy about it?
Same as pre-war, with the exception of a wider Wilsdruffer-Stra▀e.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Dresden lost hundreds of miracles of 17th and 18th century barocco and you are proposing to spend public money exchaning one semi-historism from 1950s with another semi-historism from 2010s?
I would prefer spot-on reconstruction, but as an alternative to the aberrations currently in their place, I would prefer the 'semi-historic' it is more compatible with the baroque.
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
As I said: if reconstruction is possible to be done on the spot (such as Palais de Saxe) - I definitely agree. If one wants to exchange Stalinist semi-historism with present semi-historism - that's waste of money, IMHO.
That assumes the two are equal, and they are not. Additionally, I'm not sure if 'semi-historic' applies to the Kulturpalast and the two modernist blocks to its east. They are deliberate breaks from the past, and themselves representative of a past that was an aesthetic failure.


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I find anything other than reconstruction inappropriate in this place. If reconstruction is feasible, let it go, if not, let it stay the way it is.
So do I, but if I can't order the filet mignon, I won't settle for eating my own shoe.

Compromises have been made, and will continue to be made. The end result must be aesthetically coherent, and Stalinist or Modernist styles do not achieve this. Semi-historic is not preferable to historic, but it is better than the the current structures.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 05:49 PM   #4092
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Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post

One reconstructed facade, right next to British Hotel, and the rest will be build in a semi modern/traditional way. Visualisations looked good to me. I do not know where to find them though, sorry.
Thanks... I found this. Architektur Neumarkt Dresden




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Old October 11th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #4093
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these plans are not up to date though...

Last edited by Tiaren; October 11th, 2013 at 06:12 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 06:11 PM   #4094
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Here you go, Skymino. Page 17, picture 2:

http://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/wirt...esden-2013.pdf
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Old October 11th, 2013, 06:46 PM   #4095
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Thanks a lot.

Well, so are those building that will build on this corner


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Old October 11th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #4096
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Very likely! The one with the red roof is going to be the facade reconstruction.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 07:26 PM   #4097
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There is a LOT of work to be done in Dresden and limited funding to move these changes as fast as we would all like. I dont think the timing is right to remove the Kulturpalast, but I do believe it is inevitable that once the current Quartiers are completed the Kulturpalast will stand out as the eyesore most of us see.

I'm patently watching the remaining Quartiers being completed before I get too worked up about the KP and Wilsdruffer Str. I really like the concept SonOfThomp put together.

As we have said before, there are more than enough reminders of the GDR outside the heart of the Neustadt, the Kulturplast is more antagonistic then pleasing.

-tb
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Old October 11th, 2013, 10:06 PM   #4098
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Thanks a lot.

Well, so are those building that will build on this corner



CHOKE
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Old October 11th, 2013, 10:34 PM   #4099
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I would prefer spot-on reconstruction, but as an alternative to the aberrations currently in their place, I would prefer the 'semi-historic' it is more compatible with the baroque.
That assumes the two are equal, and they are not. Additionally, I'm not sure if 'semi-historic' applies to the Kulturpalast and the two modernist blocks to its east. They are deliberate breaks from the past, and themselves representative of a past that was an aesthetic failure.
I didn't use 'semi-historic' refering to Kulturpalast, obviously I was referring to high-roofed 1950s blocks on Wilsdruffer. Which are not very much different from architecture of the context which is visible on the pics posted by Skymino. Modern, but with classic shape and articulation.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 11:22 PM   #4100
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[/QUOTE]

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CHOKE
Why? Yes, they might be modern, but they are built in alle the traditional proportions. No weird experiments. Look, you can hardly tell the reconstructed building apart from the others. The only thing one can complain about, is that the roofs are not made of red tiles. It is hardly a site to make you choke. If all the other modern fillers were build like that on Neumarkt, we could be glad...
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