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Old November 20th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #4181
william of waco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pccvspw999 View Post
Many people had died in the Fire-storm of Dresden, and many inside the basements of the old city. But no one has been buried inside these basements.
This also happened in many cities were Fire-storms occured.

No, I agree, there is nothing creepy in re-using those cellars, even for wellness.
If a house caught fire and burned the family inside would you restore it into a charming bed and breakfast and pretend to ignore the horror that took place there? I guarantee there would be very few people willing to sleep there.

So little of the original old town remains. The hip transformation of these old basements is desecration and should have remained buried.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #4182
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Well, obviously we seem to be the only ones troubled by the history of a place and it's later use. At least in this thread...

I think, we should leave it at that. Sorry for derailing this thread!
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Old November 20th, 2013, 07:08 PM   #4183
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With that logic, all of Poland should have remained untouched and buried, save and except Krakow.

That being said, I do not think that re-purposing these buildings and their foundation is disrespectful to those who may have perished therein.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #4184
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The point is, you have to face the reality. The possibilities were not either to contain the basements buried in the ground or to re-use them in the way it is mostly done know. Most of the basements are/were not under monument protection (god knows why). So the basements either were destroyed for new cellars and underground garages or the investors preserved them by giving them an economic benefit.

Nobody would have built more than one building there without a useful cellar.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #4185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post

Well, obviously we seem to be the only ones troubled by the history of a place and it's later use. At least in this thread...

I think, we should leave it at that. Sorry for derailing this thread!
Nothing to apologize for, your opinion is your opinion, it is relevant to the reconstruction efforts and it all makes for healthy debate!
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Old November 21st, 2013, 12:17 AM   #4186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by william of waco

If a house caught fire and burned the family inside would you restore it into a charming bed and breakfast and pretend to ignore the horror that took place there? I guarantee there would be very few people willing to sleep there.
But the reason won't be respect for the deads.
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So little of the original old town remains. The hip transformation of these old basements is desecration and should have remained buried.
There is no certainty that inside those basements bodies have been found. If you ask the owners the answer will be "no", for sure.
Anyway, these are not catacombs nor tombs, and talking of "desecration" is wrong at place.
But You're free not to use them. There will be more place for those who don't care about 70 years old events.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 06:39 AM   #4187
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Yes, bad stuff happens and in nearly all older houses at least someone died, but these cellars are basically sites of mass murder.
Yeah, it's like putting a bar or spa in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. Bad taste.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 08:27 AM   #4188
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Quote:
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Yeah, it's like putting a bar or spa in the gas chambers of Auschwitz.
It's an absolutely incorrect comparison. Gas chambers in Auschwitz were built deliberately to kill people, that's their only function. But basements in old Dresden houses just happened to become places of death (as well as city streets and other sites).
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Old November 21st, 2013, 11:56 AM   #4189
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Maybe it's time to move on. I think I have heard all the pro & cons on this issue.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 12:05 PM   #4190
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Indeed, please give it a rest, people.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #4191
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been out awhile and want to weigh in on this now semi old discussion. I think the murdered in Dresden absolutely deserve a proper and properly accounted memorial. The death chambers in the cellars and bomb shelters seem to me to be too little and too insignificant a place of memory for these lost souls. While there is a minor memorial miles away, why is it that throughout Germany all the centerpiece memorials are for victims of national socialism yet there's nothing to bring into focus the millions of German civilians killed. I think there should be an above ground, tasteful and dominant memorial in the Altstadt that serves this purpose. The world needs to recall the camps, and the world also needs to recall (and learn about) the mass murder at Dresden.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 10:56 AM   #4192
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been out awhile and want to weigh in on this now semi old discussion. I think the murdered in Dresden absolutely deserve a proper and properly accounted memorial. The death chambers in the cellars and bomb shelters seem to me to be too little and too insignificant a place of memory for these lost souls. While there is a minor memorial miles away, why is it that throughout Germany all the centerpiece memorials are for victims of national socialism yet there's nothing to bring into focus the millions of German civilians killed. I think there should be an above ground, tasteful and dominant memorial in the Altstadt that serves this purpose. The world needs to recall the camps, and the world also needs to recall (and learn about) the mass murder at Dresden.
Murder?
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Old November 25th, 2013, 11:38 AM   #4193
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Murder?
Yes, the mass murder of tens of thousands of civilian men, women, and children.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #4194
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Yes, the mass murder of tens of thousands of civilian men, women, and children.
Not much of a lawyer, are you?

Murder (n) - the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human. A premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). A person who commits murder is called a murderer.

I'd definitely call the Bombing of Dresden great tragedy, loss of life, abominable act, even slaughter, but crime? Whether or not carpet bombings were contradicting the rules of war - that's really controversial issue and beyond this thread.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #4195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Not much of a lawyer, are you?

Murder (n) - the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human. A premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). A person who commits murder is called a murderer.

I'd definitely call the Bombing of Dresden great tragedy, loss of life, abominable act, even slaughter, but crime? Whether or not carpet bombings were contradicting the rules of war - that's really controversial issue and beyond this thread.
The rule of war is that you are only allowed to kill combattants (people who carry weapons) or execute people. The people in Dresden were neither combattants nor were they sentenced to death. So yes, it was murder.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #4196
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #4197
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The rule of war is that you are only allowed to kill combattants (people who carry weapons) or execute people. The people in Dresden were neither combattants nor were they sentenced to death. So yes, it was murder.
No, it wasn't. I can only suggest to read something on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_...ernational_law
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:38 PM   #4198
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Quote:
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I'd definitely call the Bombing of Dresden great tragedy, loss of life, abominable act, even slaughter, but crime? Whether or not carpet bombings were contradicting the rules of war - that's really controversial issue and beyond this thread.
It is really off topic so I try to keep it short.
I would not go for the word "murder" too. Auschwitz was murder. There has to be a difference in language.
But nevetherless one aim of british area bombings was to kill as much people (workers) as possible. Thats a fact.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:57 PM   #4199
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It is really off topic so I try to keep it short.
I would not go for the word "murder" too. Auschwitz was murder. There has to be a difference in language.
But nevetherless one aim of british area bombings was to kill as much people (workers) as possible. Thats a fact.
The aim was to inflict as much damage as possible. The loss of life was simply collateral damage, which UK and US authorities accepted in the reality of Total War. Terrible decision, but what else could be done? I mean, what else feasible could be done?

If you have good idea, please send mail to:

Sir Arthur Travers Harris, 1st Baronet, GCB, OBE, AFC
Marshal of the Royal Air Force
Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief
RAF Bomber Command
High Wycombe
Buckinghamshire HP14 4XW
UNITED KINGDOM
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Old November 25th, 2013, 01:00 PM   #4200
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Quote:
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The aim was to inflict as much damage as possible. The loss of life was simply collateral damage, which UK and US authorities accepted in the reality of Total War. Terrible decision, but what else could be done? I mean, what else feasible could be done?
Why target a city with little military value that was full of refugees? What about bombing raids in late April or early May when Germany was for all intents and purposes already defeated? And yes, I'd call it murder. Of course there's no doubt that what happened in Auschwitz was worse but if we use that as the gold standard for murder then anything else pales in comparison.
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