daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 29th, 2013, 12:20 PM   #4221
FritzMitWitz
Registered User
 
FritzMitWitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 535

I have recently visited Dresden and as astonishing as the reconstruction is I came to the conclusion that the Kultupalast is an improtant part of the city center. Even though I don't think that the reconstructed buildings look artificial I think that the Kulturpalast is just like the beautiful baroque buildings a part of the city’s historic identity which shouldn't be demolished. Actually all of my family members who visited Dresden with me the very same day came to the conclusion that the Kulturpalast is a nice contrast to the polished new old buildings and will be of huge interest four tourists in the coming years. A simple glance at the socialist mosaic reveals a part of the cities identity and makes people think about Dresden's history of the 20th century. Furthermore the architecture looks in real life much better than on photos and will make an even better impression after the renovation. The biggest disadvantage of the bulidng is its location and size. It actually divides the city center in two parts. But than again the new buildings must adapt to the urban planing which was created after WW2 and not the other way around.
__________________

datinti, Jasper90 liked this post

Last edited by FritzMitWitz; November 29th, 2013 at 12:30 PM.
FritzMitWitz no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 29th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #4222
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57847

That's why some people (including) me were rooting for relocating the Kulturpalast.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #4223
WhiteMagick
Moderator - Επιτηρητής
 
WhiteMagick's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,087













Source: http://www.bausituation-dresden.de/
__________________
Ο κάθε λαός έχει το κράτος και την κυβέρνηση που του αξίζει. Καθρέφτης λαού, ἄστη αυτού.

如果希腊国民继续信阴谋论,外资救世主的,不为自己的行为负责, 他们会灭亡。

人は何かの犠牲なしに何も得ることはできない。何かを得るためには同等の代価が必要になる。それが、生活における等価交換の原則だ。その頃僕らは、それが世界の真実だと信じていた。時間は、最も貴重な資源である。だから、誰の時間もあなたは無駄にしてはいけないし、誰もが他の人の時間を無駄にしないでください。

Kampflamm, Chadoh25 liked this post
WhiteMagick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #4224
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

Quote:
Originally Posted by FritzMitWitz View Post
I have recently visited Dresden and as astonishing as the reconstruction is I came to the conclusion that the Kultupalast is an improtant part of the city center. Even though I don't think that the reconstructed buildings look artificial I think that the Kulturpalast is just like the beautiful baroque buildings a part of the city’s historic identity which shouldn't be demolished. Actually all of my family members who visited Dresden with me the very same day came to the conclusion that the Kulturpalast is a nice contrast to the polished new old buildings and will be of huge interest four tourists in the coming years. A simple glance at the socialist mosaic reveals a part of the cities identity and makes people think about Dresden's history of the 20th century. Furthermore the architecture looks in real life much better than on photos and will make an even better impression after the renovation. The biggest disadvantage of the bulidng is its location and size. It actually divides the city center in two parts. But than again the new buildings must adapt to the urban planing which was created after WW2 and not the other way around.
Hence, the contradiction of your point and why so many have opposed this grossly contrasting monstrosity. Set in an appropriate location surrounded by parking lots and other sterile retail houses, the kulturpalast structure would have its more comfortable setting and not intrude/divide anything.

What also continues to surprise me is the desire by some to present the communist images. The graphics are not socialist; they are fully communist in design, nature, and timeframe. The communists were no better than the Nazis and no one is struggling to defend and maintain Nazi artifacts and images. As victims of communist atrocities, we should not be promoting their existence, rather hiding it as we do national socialism.
__________________

erbse, Spam King, Wiederschönmachung liked this post
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2013, 05:31 PM   #4225
durden5573
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Banff, Alberta
Posts: 122
Likes (Received): 114

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Who would have thought scenes/views like this would become reality 20 years ago:

image hosted on flickr

Morgens am Neumarkt by windo licker, on Flickr
WOW - This picture is absolutely stunning. Reminds me a bit of a larger Getreidegasse in Salzburg. Regardless the Baroque architecture is impressive and some of the most authentic around. For those who think it looks fake, you just dont know what real is. Wait a few years for the patina to form and these will look like the originals.
__________________

JustinHerman liked this post
durden5573 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2013, 05:42 PM   #4226
durden5573
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Banff, Alberta
Posts: 122
Likes (Received): 114

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
What also continues to surprise me is the desire by some to present the communist images. The graphics are not socialist; they are fully communist in design, nature, and timeframe. The communists were no better than the Nazis and no one is struggling to defend and maintain Nazi artifacts and images. As victims of communist atrocities, we should not be promoting their existence, rather hiding it as we do national socialism.
Well said, family of mine grew up under both the National Socialists and then Democratic Socialists, both were described as horrible and had nothing to do with real socialism. As far as my opinion goes, keep a few relics of their existence for history sake, but flatten the rest (including the Kulturplast). GDR city planning was brutal and has no place in modern Germany.
__________________

Spam King liked this post
durden5573 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2013, 07:08 PM   #4227
FritzMitWitz
Registered User
 
FritzMitWitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 535

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Hence, the contradiction of your point and why so many have opposed this grossly contrasting monstrosity. Set in an appropriate location surrounded by parking lots and other sterile retail houses, the kulturpalast structure would have its more comfortable setting and not intrude/divide anything.

What also continues to surprise me is the desire by some to present the communist images. The graphics are not socialist; they are fully communist in design, nature, and timeframe. The communists were no better than the Nazis and no one is struggling to defend and maintain Nazi artifacts and images. As victims of communist atrocities, we should not be promoting their existence, rather hiding it as we do national socialism.
For sure it would be better if the Kulturpalast would be a few square meters meters smaller and a few meters shorter and would be located slightly different in the city center. The connection between the Neumarkt and the Altmarkt could be better. But the architecture didnt appear to me as awful as describes by many forumers. On the contrary I found the architecture to be surprisingly good and as mentioned a nice contrast to the other buildings. Cities are and should be multi-facetted. With all the their architectural diversities and historic wounds which represent different parts of the citys history. The communist Pałac Kultury in Warsaw isnt a perfect fit in the city either. There is quite some Nazi architecture in Munich. One building is for example used by the university of music and theatre...etc. And if the Mosaic, which I by the way find really interesting, is something that will cause lots of disturbance amongst the inhabitants of Dresden a debate will have to be started once again whether the picture should be taken down. Even though I think it might be very unlikely cause according to Wikipedia the picture is just like the whole building protected as a cultural monument. By the way: The renovation of the Kulturpalast will be finished by 2017. The estimated cost will be 80 Million Euros.
__________________

Mruczek liked this post

Last edited by FritzMitWitz; November 29th, 2013 at 10:24 PM.
FritzMitWitz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2013, 09:50 PM   #4228
datinti
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 153
Likes (Received): 96

[QUOTE=FritzMitWitz;109268253]...But the architecture didnt appear to me as awful as describes by many forumers. On the contrary I found the architecture to be surprisingly good and as mentioned a nice contrast to the other buildings. Cities are and should be multi-facetted...


I totally agree. I visited Dresden many years ago, when works on the Frauenkirche reconstruction were just beginning, so I did not see anything of the new "old" Neumarkt. But the Kulturpalst made a great impression on me and I agree that it looks much better on site than in pictures. I understand that many people would like it to be tear down or relocated elsewhere (but how...what's the sense of dismantle it and recompose it?! Not to mention the cost of that!!) but its replacement with what? reconstructed baroque or XIX century buildings would be better? How would they fit with the Altmarkt for instance? Unless some forumer are hoping to reconstruct the whole city centre of Dresden, which is, unfortunately, a vain hope due to cost and logistic problems. So, let's keep the Kulturpalast, let's screen it off the Neumarkt and live with it. The mosaic is superb, by the way
__________________

FritzMitWitz liked this post
datinti no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 01:15 AM   #4229
durden5573
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Banff, Alberta
Posts: 122
Likes (Received): 114

[QUOTE=datinti;109271953][B]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FritzMitWitz View Post
Unless some forumer are hoping to reconstruct the whole city centre of Dresden, which is, unfortunately, a vain hope due to cost and logistic problems.
The city of Dresden was completely destroyed in 1945, reconstructing the entire city center has never been a proposal, nor would it ever be possible. What many would like to see is one small section of the city authentically rebuilt. The Neustadt is the natural choice housing many of the historic landmarks. There is no shortage of GDR architecture throughout the city, including much of the altstadt.The question is why should an authentic reconstruction on of the most beautiful squares in the world, build around a concrete eyesore? Without the baroque juxtaposition, the Kulturplast would look like a stained glass Walmart. Its easy to feel emotion when looking at the Kulturplast and the Frauenkirche is in the background.

Economics will be the biggest factor in its survival. The renovations that recently occurred are a sunk cost and should not factor into its survival. The land the Kulturplast sits on is prime real estate, my thought is that investment Euros will determine whether the building lives or dies.

The reality from what I have heard is that there are no plans to demolish the Kulturplast and it likely it is here to stay. I would be curious as the Neumarkt starts to take shape, how opinions in Dresden will change.
__________________

keepthepast, TimothyR liked this post
durden5573 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 01:35 AM   #4230
durden5573
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Banff, Alberta
Posts: 122
Likes (Received): 114

I would like to start a campaign to release the Kulturplast back into its natural habitat. It has been held hostage in the Baroque zoo for long enough. The humane thing to do is to set it free. Look how happy it looks back in its native environment, somewhere it can run around with other concrete cubes:


Dresmart
__________________

Last edited by durden5573; November 30th, 2013 at 01:40 AM.
durden5573 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 02:31 AM   #4231
JohnnyMass
Whatever
 
JohnnyMass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Porto
Posts: 46,077
Likes (Received): 1493

awesome!
__________________
Edit my Signature
JohnnyMass no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 05:11 AM   #4232
datinti
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 153
Likes (Received): 96

The reality from what I have heard is that there are no plans to demolish the Kulturplast and it likely it is here to stay. I would be curious as the Neumarkt starts to take shape, how opinions in Dresden will change.[/QUOTE]

The Neumarkt IS already starting to have its shape and from the plans the Kulturpalast will be completely screened off the Neumarkt by a row of fully reconstructed houses that will complete the square. Luckily the comunist palace happens to be just off the square so that its demolition is not strictly necessary. Yes, Dresden is full of commie architecture, but here we are talking about a special and monumental piece of architecture. That also sits quite well, in my opinion, with the postwar Altmarkt reconstruction. And yes, it is true that the architecture of the Kulturpalast is dramatically exagerated by the contrast with the baroque surroundings...but that's the essence of it. Architecture is not only something in itself, it is also about its relation with what's around it, whether it is an harmony or a contrast. Think about the Centre Pompidou in Paris.
datinti no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 05:18 AM   #4233
datinti
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 153
Likes (Received): 96

For instance, I am much, MUCH more outraged by the modern insertions shoved in the reconstructed Neumarkt or in Rampische strasse! Because that is an absolute NONSENSE!! The Kulturpalast is something existing, so we can decide if we want to keep it or not. But why on earth while faithfully reconstructing a whole portion of the city you decide to insert some "Modern" building, just for the sake of it? This, I simply don't understand..
__________________

erbse liked this post

Last edited by datinti; November 30th, 2013 at 05:25 AM.
datinti no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 05:38 AM   #4234
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 977
Likes (Received): 1677

Quote:
Originally Posted by datinti View Post
The reality from what I have heard is that there are no plans to demolish the Kulturplast and it likely it is here to stay. I would be curious as the Neumarkt starts to take shape, how opinions in Dresden will change.


The Neumarkt IS already starting to have its shape and from the plans the Kulturpalast will be completely screened off the Neumarkt by a row of fully reconstructed houses that will complete the square. Luckily the comunist palace happens to be just off the square so that its demolition is not strictly necessary. Yes, Dresden is full of commie architecture, but here we are talking about a special and monumental piece of architecture. That also sits quite well, in my opinion, with the postwar Altmarkt reconstruction. And yes, it is true that the architecture of the Kulturpalast is dramatically exagerated by the contrast with the baroque surroundings...but that's the essence of it. Architecture is not only something in itself, it is also about its relation with what's around it, whether it is an harmony or a contrast. Think about the Centre Pompidou in Paris.[/QUOTE]



Yes, architectural contrasts may not be offensive and may work harmoniously with the setting in which they exist together. The Seagrams Building in NYC was a definite contrast to its Manhattan neighbors when build, but it blended with the spirit and harmony of the area beautifully as a symbol of past, present and future.

the kulturpalast bears no such valued harmony or interesting contrast. Contrast for contrast sake is simply bad taste. One would never put chocolate sauce on a filet mignon even though each, on their own, may be enjoyed. Nor would a blast from Eminem be appropriate in the middle of Beethoven's 9th. The kulturpalast's place in the cultural commentary is only because it's like a man wondering into the women's bathroom--creates a lot of stirred up emotions for a stupid mistake.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 02:10 PM   #4235
Kampflamm
Endorsed by the NRA
 
Kampflamm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Occupied Europe
Posts: 23,654

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteMagick View Post










http://www.frieseneck-neumarkt.de/objekt
__________________
Free German passport

"I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Wunderbarler and it's something that you have to earn."

erbse liked this post
Kampflamm está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #4236
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 43,167
Likes (Received): 57847

Nothing outrageous, I'm glad they're not going for a freaky-modernist design here. Nice colour of the corner building.
They should go for all-red roofs though.

But why the heck would they call it "Frieseneck" (Frisian corner)?
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥

Last edited by erbse; November 30th, 2013 at 07:11 PM.
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 08:16 PM   #4237
JohnnyMass
Whatever
 
JohnnyMass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Porto
Posts: 46,077
Likes (Received): 1493

The grey one, between the reko and the corner building, hum...
Oh well, as long as they do reconstruct Palais Hoym these won't hurt that much.
__________________
Edit my Signature
JohnnyMass no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #4238
Saxonia
Registered User
 
Saxonia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Res publica Banana
Posts: 1,057
Likes (Received): 7398

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
But why the heck would they call it "Frieseneck" (Frisian corner)?
Because it is the corner Friesengasse/Landhausstraße
__________________

Tiaren liked this post
Saxonia está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2013, 07:30 AM   #4239
datinti
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 153
Likes (Received): 96

originally posted by KEEPTHEPAST: Yes, architectural contrasts may not be offensive and may work harmoniously with the setting in which they exist together.

Architectural contrast is CONTRAST, not harmony, so it may be offensive and NOT work harmoniously with the setting. Otherwise we would not call it "contrast" don't you think? That does not mean that contrast is something bad to start with. That's why I was referring to the Centre Pompidou in Paris, it is undeniable that is a piece of architecture completely in contrast with its surrounding, nevertheless I could not imagine another setting for it, the building creates a dialogue with the medieval surroundings just thru this extreme contrast. Of course it is a matter of opinion and taste, I know lots of people that still think that Centre Pompidou should be demolished or dismantled and moved elsewhere!

quote:One would never put chocolate sauce on a filet mignon even though each, on their own, may be enjoyed.

You may be surprised to know that in my region, Tuscany, there is a very traditional recipe that combines meat (hare or wild boar) with chocolate sauce! And it's simply delicious
datinti no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2013, 08:22 AM   #4240
TimothyR
Ike
 
TimothyR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Born in NYC, Living in Boston
Posts: 1,264
Likes (Received): 2085

Quote:
Originally Posted by datinti View Post
originally posted by KEEPTHEPAST: Yes, architectural contrasts may not be offensive and may work harmoniously with the setting in which they exist together.

Architectural contrast is CONTRAST, not harmony, so it may be offensive and NOT work harmoniously with the setting. Otherwise we would not call it "contrast" don't you think? That does not mean that contrast is something bad to start with. That's why I was referring to the Centre Pompidou in Paris, it is undeniable that is a piece of architecture completely in contrast with its surrounding, nevertheless I could not imagine another setting for it, the building creates a dialogue with the medieval surroundings just thru this extreme contrast. Of course it is a matter of opinion and taste, I know lots of people that still think that Centre Pompidou should be demolished or dismantled and moved elsewhere!

quote:One would never put chocolate sauce on a filet mignon even though each, on their own, may be enjoyed.

You may be surprised to know that in my region, Tuscany, there is a very traditional recipe that combines meat (hare or wild boar) with chocolate sauce! And it's simply delicious

I must admit that I don't understand this way of thinking.

I know people who think the same way about the new Penn Station in Manhattan. It is disgusting, and replaces an architectural gem. They know and admit it is horrible, but they are opposed to replacing it because of the 'contrast' and because ir represents NYC in the 60s.

I have not visited the Centre Pompidou. It looks very odd and strange because of the contrast.

The Kulturplast in Dresden, which I have seen, is grotesque. It is the manifestation of a brutal materialism and ugly. I don't understand why it is being 'renovated', It is like washing garbage. When you are done, you still have garbage.
__________________

“In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.”

“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"We are more closely connected to the invisible than to the visible"

-Novalis

Spam King, Wiederschönmachung liked this post
TimothyR no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
classic architecture, classic europe, construction updates, dresden, reconstruction, redevelopment, rekonstrucje, rekonstruktion, sachsen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu