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Old December 1st, 2013, 08:27 AM   #4241
TimothyR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Who would have thought scenes/views like this would become reality 20 years ago:

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Morgens am Neumarkt by windo licker, on Flickr

...

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Buildings in the Neumarkt Area, Dresden (2) by Phil Masters, on Flickr
Oh my God. I am not ashamed to say that this 'choked me up'. Quite wonderful. Dresden in its rebirth. More and more of it comes back to life.

I won't repost all of your photos because of space. But they are all gems.
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Old December 1st, 2013, 10:12 PM   #4242
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Originally Posted by datinti View Post

Architectural contrast is CONTRAST, not harmony, so it may be offensive and NOT work harmoniously with the setting. Otherwise we would not call it "contrast" don't you think?

No, I disagree heartily. I think you're mixing up contrasting with clashing. Many contrasts blend, integrate, and enhance each individual design. All of which is often inoffensive and harmonious.

What you describe as purposefully not harmonious is a clash, and clashing is disruptive and visually alarming (in an unpleasant way). When artists attempt to create clashing visuals and sell them as innovative, it always requires explanation and a gullible, willing audience to accept the unsightliness as being cool. That's fine with fashion, cuisine, even music, all of which can be turned on and off in a moment. But architecture is intended to last for decades and no one should force a violator on current or future generations. Of course, that's my opinion.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 12:31 AM   #4243
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TimothyR wrote:
I know people who think the same way about the new Penn Station in Manhattan. It is disgusting, and replaces an architectural gem. [/B]

I think it is a different story here. Penn Station is replacing another building which was a masterpiece of Neoclassical eclecticism and unfortunately has been demolished and replaced in the '60. The Kulturpalast does not replace any particular building, I mean luckily here the GDR planners did not blow up the castle, for example, to replace it with something else like they did in Berlin or in Konigsberg/Kaliningrad.

The Kulturplast in Dresden, which I have seen, is grotesque. It is the manifestation of a brutal materialism and ugly. I don't understand why it is being 'renovated', It is like washing garbage. When you are done, you still have garbage.[/QUOTE]

Of course, as I explained before, it is a matter of opinion here. I am not saying that Kulturpalast is an absolute masterpiece, but I don't find it so scandalous, it has a monumentality and a lightness which makes it worth its preservation. Also because, when the Neumarkt will be completely reconstructed, it wont interfere with it.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 12:43 AM   #4244
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[QUOTE=keepthepast;109322176]No, I disagree heartily. I think you're mixing up contrasting with clashing. Many contrasts blend, integrate, and enhance each individual design. All of which is often inoffensive and harmonious.

Sorry, I think you are playing with words:

Definition of CONTRAST:
a. The act of contrasting; a setting off of dissimilar entities or objects.
b. The state of being contrasted: red berries standing in vivid contrast against the snow.
2. A difference, especially a strong dissimilarity, between entities or objects compared: the contrast between Northern and Southern speech patterns.
3. One thing that is strikingly dissimilar to another: My new school was a welcome contrast to the one before.
4. The use of opposing elements, such as colors, forms, or lines, in proximity to produce an intensified effect in a work of art.
5. The difference in brightness between the light and dark areas of a picture, such as a photograph or video image.
6. Linguistics A difference between units, especially one that distinguishes meaning.


there is any mention of harmony or homogeinity here. Then if you prefere to call it "clashing" let's call it as you wish. It may be the case of the Kulturpalast, again it is a matter of opinion. I don't want to look like a mad defender of it, it is certainly not on the top list of my favourite buildings! But I don't find it horrendous either and I believe it is quite relevant as well for what it represents culturally and historically. So I don't see the point of demolish it to replace it with other modern buildings when it won't interfere that much with the planned baroque reconstruction. Maybe we should open a thread devoted only to Mr. Kulturplast here

Last edited by datinti; December 2nd, 2013 at 12:51 AM.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 12:56 AM   #4245
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Source: http://www.bausituation-dresden.de/[/QUOTE]

Sorry guys, but i find MUCH, MUCH more awful THIS modern building thrown in the middle of a lovely reconstruction for no apparent reason!
This is simply stupid and there are, unfortunately, other cases in the Neumarkt. Long live the Kulturpalast then!
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 05:32 AM   #4246
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You cant polish a turd...
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 08:46 AM   #4247
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I would like to start a campaign to release the Kulturplast back into its natural habitat. It has been held hostage in the Baroque zoo for long enough. The humane thing to do is to set it free. Look how happy it looks back in its native environment, somewhere it can run around with other concrete cubes:
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The funny part is... Dresden looked exactly like this after the war. It was a wasteland with barely any remains of its former glory. So the Kulturpalast had been build in its natural habitat.
What happend is that our generation is changing the environment and therefore is destroying its habitat....
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 08:54 AM   #4248
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I am curious. What was on the location where the Kulturplast is now? Before the war?
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 08:57 AM   #4249
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Quote:
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I am curious. What was on the location where the Kulturplast is now? Before the war?
Your kidding me, right?
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 09:02 AM   #4250
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Your kidding me, right?
Well, you can stop the obnoxious sarcasm and answer. Or just ignore it. I do not know what building was there before.
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“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 09:22 AM   #4251
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Sorry, i really thougt you would be joking.

There wasnt a special building before the war. The area was filled with baroque and late19/early 20th tenant buildings.


http://dresden-kult.de/images/dresden_altstadt.jpg

and looked like this after the war...


http://13februar.dresden.de/media/bi...rkt-hahn14.jpg


And some plans for a rebuild of the market from 1946 which had been better for what we actually got on the south and north side of Altmarkt..

look to the south:


http://www.das-neue-dresden.de/image...markt-1946.jpg

and 1952:


http://www.das-neue-dresden.de/image...te-rascher.jpg

And if wasnt for Stalins death, we pobably would have this on the north side where now Kulturpalast is:


http://www.das-neue-dresden.de/image...eihochhaus.jpg
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 05:32 PM   #4252
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[QUOTE=keepthepast;109322176]No, I disagree heartily. I think you're mixing up contrasting with clashing. Many contrasts blend, integrate, and enhance each individual design. All of which is often inoffensive and harmonious.[/B]
Quote:
Originally Posted by datinti View Post
[B]
Sorry, I think you are playing with words:

Definition of CONTRAST:
a. The act of contrasting; a setting off of dissimilar entities or objects.
b. The state of being contrasted: red berries standing in vivid contrast against the snow.
2. A difference, especially a strong dissimilarity, between entities or objects compared: the contrast between Northern and Southern speech patterns.
3. One thing that is strikingly dissimilar to another: My new school was a welcome contrast to the one before.
4. The use of opposing elements, such as colors, forms, or lines, in proximity to produce an intensified effect in a work of art.
5. The difference in brightness between the light and dark areas of a picture, such as a photograph or video image.
6. Linguistics A difference between units, especially one that distinguishes meaning.


there is any mention of harmony or homogeinity here. Then if you prefere to call it "clashing" let's call it as you wish. It may be the case of the Kulturpalast, again it is a matter of opinion. I don't want to look like a mad defender of it, it is certainly not on the top list of my favourite buildings! But I don't find it horrendous either and I believe it is quite relevant as well for what it represents culturally and historically. So I don't see the point of demolish it to replace it with other modern buildings when it won't interfere that much with the planned baroque reconstruction. Maybe we should open a thread devoted only to Mr. Kulturplast here
On the contrary, I wasn't playing with words at all. Even in your definitions we see contrast examples to be pleasant (red berries/white snow). But red berries on pink snow would be awkward, interruptive and unattractive. A clashing visual. Your definition also references darkness/light. Of course the common extreme is black/white. We see many uses of contrasting black and white that yield both visual harmony and appeal...and don't clash.

So who's playing with words?

And in terms of your opposition to the contemporary structures on Rampische Str, these do a very nice job at blending while offering subtle contrast. Unlike the kulturpalast, they retain the footprint, street plan, height, roof lines, and general overall shape of their neighbors so the end result works.

The arguments in saving the kulturpalast have been dominated by so-called historical value and cost. In spite of their being somewhat ridiculous, I can accept those two points. Very hard, however, to accept that this monster should be saved and preserved on its physical merits and location appropriateness. On those, it's just another Walmart, as previously noted by several people here.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 10:08 PM   #4253
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Please, readers on this forum do not deserve to read again and again the same discussion, normally when we enter to this topic we expect to find some interesting information about Dresden projects...


In any case, I want to ask you something, I leaved Dresden more or less at 2012, in that time a Sophienkirche memorial was being erected, it was named Busmannkapelle, finally it was finished? Anyone has a recent picture of the area?

It's a pitty Sophienkirche was really a masterpiece and part of the genuine skyline
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 12:43 AM   #4254
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[QUOTE=cilindr0;109352430]Please, readers on this forum do not deserve to read again and again the same discussion, normally when we enter to this topic we expect to find some interesting information about Dresden projects...

Sorry mate, you are right...in fact I was proposing to open a proper thread on the Kulturpalast, since it looks to raise so many different opinions...
Like you, I am always waiting for news from the reconstruction, but it seems that it is a moment of pause 'cause nobody is coming up with something new.
So, in the meantime we keep the conversation going on... fighting over the Kulturpalast!

Jokes apart, I hope to have some news about the Sophienkirche memorial as well!
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 04:31 AM   #4255
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Originally Posted by cilindr0 View Post
Please, readers on this forum do not deserve to read again and again the same discussion, normally when we enter to this topic we expect to find some interesting information about Dresden projects...


In any case, I want to ask you something, I leaved Dresden more or less at 2012, in that time a Sophienkirche memorial was being erected, it was named Busmannkapelle, finally it was finished? Anyone has a recent picture of the area?

It's a pitty Sophienkirche was really a masterpiece and part of the genuine skyline
Agree, the Sophienkirche was a stunning masterpiece that could have and should have been saved. The replacement memorial is a neither a good reflection of the church's lost grandeur nor is it very compelling as a memorial, being somewhat lost amidst the new construction that surrounds it.

Also, the new Café Prag uses some of the space of the Church. Café Prag's use of clashing architecture and inharmonious colors and materials sort of works in its location as a "hidden" surprise and oddity. The objective was to be like a flashing red light at the half-off table in a discount store, and it achieves that kind of OMG reaction. If it were in a focal point location, it would be totally wrong, but nestled tightly between domineering buildings, it's a novelty.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 05:46 AM   #4256
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Sounds interesting, any pictures? I searched on the web for cafè Prag and I got some pics of the project of a quite brash extension on the back courtyard but no actual pic, so it looks like they are building it or something. But Cafè Prag, from what I saw, looks to be in another position, almost at the south end of the Altmarkt along Pragstrasse. you say it uses some of the former space of Sophiekirche but was the church supposed to be near Taschenberg Palais, or am I wrong?
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 06:13 AM   #4257
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I heard that Breslau's main square was modelled on Dresden's? I assumed the Silesian and Saxon market places were fairly similar?
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 06:26 AM   #4258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by durden5573 View Post
I would like to start a campaign to release the Kulturplast back into its natural habitat. It has been held hostage in the Baroque zoo for long enough. The humane thing to do is to set it free. Look how happy it looks back in its native environment, somewhere it can run around with other concrete cubes:


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ROFL DresTex
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 12:08 PM   #4259
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I heard that Breslau's main square was modelled on Dresden's? I assumed the Silesian and Saxon market places were fairly similar?
It depends what do you mean by "similar".

Technically speaking it would be more accurate to say that Wrocław's and Dresden's market squares were both modelled after Magdeburg's, as both Wrocław and Dresden were planned in Middle Ages according to Magdeburg law.

However, Wrocław's and Dresden's main squares look different. In Wrocław most of houses were reconstructed or in some cases so called conservationist creations were built. In Dresden the Stalinist historic buildings (very good IMHO) were build on the spot of all destroyed rent-houses.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 06:51 PM   #4260
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Cities which were built during medieval German Ostsiedlung mostly follow the so called "east geman normal scheme" (Ostdeutsches Normalschema). That means right-angled streets with a big square in the center. The city of Breslau or Wroclaw is older than the german settlement in this area. They arrived with growing numbers at the beginning of the 13th century if I am not totally wrong. I guess it is possible that Breslau was reconstructed by using this german scheme after it was destroyed by Mongols.
Dresden on the other hand is a nearly complete german settlement except for a small sorbian village on the right side of the Elbe (later called "Altendresden" today "Neustadt").
The groundplan around the Altmarkt dates back to the end of the 12th century. An important Orientation point was the already existing Elbe bridge (today Augustusbrücke) and it also included an older traders outpost in the east with its church, the Nikolaikirche (today Kreuzkirche.)

Quote:
Technically speaking it would be more accurate to say that Wrocław's and Dresden's market squares were both modelled after Magdeburg's, as both Wrocław and Dresden were planned in Middle Ages according to Magdeburg law.
The Magdeburg law was only given to cities that already physically existed and included also the existence of fortifications. It says nothing about how the city actually has to be built.
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