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Old December 3rd, 2013, 10:35 PM   #4261
SonOfThomp
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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Cities which were built during medieval German Ostsiedlung mostly follow the so called "east geman normal scheme" (Ostdeutsches Normalschema). That means right-angled streets with a big square in the center. The city of Breslau or Wroclaw is older than the german settlement in this area. They arrived with growing numbers at the beginning of the 13th century if I am not totally wrong. I guess it is possible that Breslau was reconstructed by using this german scheme after it was destroyed by Mongols.
Dresden on the other hand is a nearly complete german settlement except for a small sorbian village on the right side of the Elbe (later called "Altendresden" today "Neustadt").
The groundplan around the Altmarkt dates back to the end of the 12th century. An important Orientation point was the already existing Elbe bridge (today Augustusbrücke) and it also included an older traders outpost in the east with its church, the Nikolaikirche (today Kreuzkirche.)


The Magdeburg law was only given to cities that already physically existed and included also the existence of fortifications. It says nothing about how the city actually has to be built.
Wonderful! This is one of many reasons I like this Forum: where else could I have learned that so easily?
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Old December 4th, 2013, 12:31 AM   #4262
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The Magdeburg law was only given to cities that already physically existed and included also the existence of fortifications. It says nothing about how the city actually has to be built.
There are two patterns of cities which were granted the Magdeburg law:
1. cities, which already existed, while granted the Magdeburg law (for example Vilnius); their street grid was quite chaotic and nothing changed in city planning;
2. cities, which were created from the scratch, i.e. planned and given the self-governance; therefore rectangular square and grid of the streets: this occured in Wrocław, which was located twice: 1224 and 1242; probably the same situation occured in Dresden
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Old December 4th, 2013, 01:31 AM   #4263
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Dresden was mentioned as "civitas" for the first time in 1216. Which means that it already existed at this time. The official document is not preserved. Archaeological excavations around the Altmarkt show the first buildings around 1170-1200. The preserved but undated document for Leipzig for example is estimated at ~1165.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 08:21 AM   #4264
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The city of Breslau or Wroclaw is older than the german settlement in this area. They arrived with growing numbers at the beginning of the 13th century if I am not totally wrong. I guess it is possible that Breslau was reconstructed by using this german scheme after it was destroyed by Mongols.
Dresden on the other hand is a nearly complete german settlement except for a small sorbian village on the right side of the Elbe (later called "Altendresden" today "Neustadt").
Not much different in Breslau/Wroclaw. The old Slavic settlement was on the right bank of the Oder/Odra. On the left bank was a small, unplanned "civitas", which appeared around 1200. Around 1220/30 this civitas was turned into a German settlement with a grid-like layout and half-timbered houses, which was destroyed 10 years later. The old town we know today was established after 1241. Early towns like this were usually built by German settlers, while later foundations were carried out by people from within the country. And in all regions of the Ostsiedlung they were mostly built beside existing Slavic settlements.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 11:29 AM   #4265
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Dresden was mentioned as "civitas" for the first time in 1216. Which means that it already existed at this time. The official document is not preserved. Archaeological excavations around the Altmarkt show the first buildings around 1170-1200. The preserved but undated document for Leipzig for example is estimated at ~1165.
Perhaps something existed around the Altmarkt earlier, but the planning of rectangular square is certainly from the time of location on the Magdeburg law.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 12:12 AM   #4266
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the true grid pattern of parallel and perpendicular streets was not really fully executed until the large cities of America perfected it, New York and Chicago best examples. The southeast part of Dresden is called the American Quarter due to its true grid pattern.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #4267
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the true grid pattern of parallel and perpendicular streets was not really fully executed until the large cities of America perfected it, New York and Chicago best examples.
It depends what does it mean "the true grid pattern". It seems to me it was executed in thousands of cities under so called German law.
Dresden


Chełmno (1233)


Toruń (1233)


Wrocław (1242)


Poznań (1253)


Kraków (1257, diagonal Grodzka St is the remnant of earlier settlement)


Lviv (1356)


These cities were of course very dense, cramped in small area and surrounded by fortifications. The merit of US cities is that this system was perfected in large area.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 09:14 AM   #4268
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Please, readers on this forum do not deserve to read again and again the same discussion, normally when we enter to this topic we expect to find some interesting information about Dresden projects...(
I don't understand what all of this emotion is about. Some of us do not know that much about some aspects of Dresden.

I understand that there are many experts here and we can learn from them. But there will be people who have questions and want to understand. That is one of the reasons this forum exists.

There has to be a place for discussion about any aspect of Dresden's reconstruction.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 09:18 AM   #4269
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Originally Posted by Tolbert View Post
Sorry, i really thougt you would be joking.
I don't understand.

Perhaps this really is a forum for experts only. If it is - it needs to be made very clear. If you do not explain the unwritten rules there will be people here who will not know what questions are appropriate and acceptable.

A moderator would be helpful.
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“In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.”

“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
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Old December 5th, 2013, 05:29 PM   #4270
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Staff kicked me out of moderation, so this place remains largely unmoderated... Congrats.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 06:03 PM   #4271
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
the true grid pattern of parallel and perpendicular streets was not really fully executed until the large cities of America perfected it, New York and Chicago best examples. The southeast part of Dresden is called the American Quarter due to its true grid pattern.
Ekhm, so you're basically saying that the Romans who probably invented the so-called grid didn't really execute it?
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Old December 5th, 2013, 06:09 PM   #4272
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I dont know if this movie has been posted on this forum. But this time lapse video shows how the Neumarkt has been transformed in the las few years.

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Old December 5th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #4273
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Agree, the Sophienkirche was a stunning masterpiece that could have and should have been saved. The replacement memorial is a neither a good reflection of the church's lost grandeur nor is it very compelling as a memorial, being somewhat lost amidst the new construction that surrounds it.

Also, the new Café Prag uses some of the space of the Church. Café Prag's use of clashing architecture and inharmonious colors and materials sort of works in its location as a "hidden" surprise and oddity. The objective was to be like a flashing red light at the half-off table in a discount store, and it achieves that kind of OMG reaction. If it were in a focal point location, it would be totally wrong, but nestled tightly between domineering buildings, it's a novelty.
I exactly don't have new pictures, but I can share with you my pictures of May/2012 of the actual Busmannkapelle:



And the mighty Sophienkirche (not my pictures of course):



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Old December 6th, 2013, 05:17 AM   #4274
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Ekhm, so you're basically saying that the Romans who probably invented the so-called grid didn't really execute it?
I basically said nothing of the sort. You're basically trolling so get over yourself.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 08:48 AM   #4275
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I don't understand.

Perhaps this really is a forum for experts only. If it is - it needs to be made very clear. If you do not explain the unwritten rules there will be people here who will not know what questions are appropriate and acceptable.

A moderator would be helpful.
I thougt it was a joke because i assumed you might have followed the threat long enouogh to know as this was posted several times. No offense intended
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Old December 6th, 2013, 12:31 PM   #4276
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I basically said nothing of the sort. You're basically trolling so get over yourself.
You said that the grid "wasn't fully executed until the American large cities perfected it" which is completely untrue considering available historical evidence. And therefore I don't how me pointing it out is considered trolling. As alrady stated the grid was fully executed in a) the ancient times and partially in b) the medieval, but to make your argument even more ivalid the grid was fully executed in c) early modern period of which Turin's 17th and 18th century redesign is a great example.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #4277
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You said that the grid "wasn't fully executed until the American large cities perfected it" which is completely untrue considering available historical evidence. And therefore I don't how me pointing it out is considered trolling. As alrady stated the grid was fully executed in a) the ancient times and partially in b) the medieval, but to make your argument even more ivalid the grid was fully executed in c) early modern period of which Turin's 17th and 18th century redesign is a great example.
The manner with which you "pointed it out" was trolling. Had you desired to express a point of view and contrary data, you could have done so in a non-trolling fashion.

That said, this thread is about classic European architecture, not ancients. My comment about the grid systems in the U.S. may have seemed too overreaching given the history of Roman designs and constructions, but I was specifically regarding the conversation about European grids as a direct result of the Magdeburg Law and their evolution, not going backward. I also referenced the American quarter in Dresden, named as such because of the American grid pattern.

As reference, quote from Wikipedia "Arguably the most famous grid plan in history is the plan for New York City formulated in the Commissioners' Plan of 1811, a visionary proposal by the state legislature of New York for the development of most of Manhattan[13] above Houston Street."
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Old December 6th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #4278
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That said, this thread is about classic European architecture, not ancients.
Classic European traditions stems back to ancient times.

Having said that I come back to my Fatherland, lying far beyong Roman limes

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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
That said, this thread is about classic European architecture, not ancients. My comment about the grid systems in the U.S. may have seemed too overreaching given the history of Roman designs and constructions, but I was specifically regarding the conversation about European grids as a direct result of the Magdeburg Law and their evolution, not going backward. I also referenced the American quarter in Dresden, named as such because of the American grid pattern.
That's very nice. But are you really trying to deny the role of Magdeburg Law and its city planning in creating the ortogonal street grid?

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As reference, quote from Wikipedia "Arguably the most famous grid plan in history is the plan for New York City formulated in the Commissioners' Plan of 1811, a visionary proposal by the state legislature of New York for the development of most of Manhattan[13] above Houston Street."
Believe me, in Germany, Poland and basically Central Europe, city used to exist long before 1811
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Old December 6th, 2013, 11:28 PM   #4279
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That's very nice. But are you really trying to deny the role of Magdeburg Law and its city planning in creating the ortogonal street grid?



Believe me, in Germany, Poland and basically Central Europe, city used to exist long before 1811
1) No. I merely stated the evolution of the planning concept achieved its height in American executions. My opinion, and remains so.

2) No one argued that grid planning existed pre-Manhattan, and if you thought that was the point, you missed it.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 11:01 AM   #4280
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1) No. I merely stated the evolution of the planning concept achieved its height in American executions. My opinion, and remains so.

2) No one argued that grid planning existed pre-Manhattan, and if you thought that was the point, you missed it.
It was definitely easier to implement Grids in America due to the fact that the country was measured before the cities were built. Therefore, there are many griddy places, whereas European cities did almost always exist before accurate maps were drawn(this happened mostly in the 18th and 19th century)
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