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Old May 1st, 2014, 06:29 PM   #4401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkelAndersen View Post
Why do they mix modern and old?
Actually, they don't. After all there is next to nothing old left to mix it with. All you see around Neumarkt square is in fact modern. The only difference between buildings is that some got a fake Baroque fašade while others are allowed to reveal their true age. So it is more like a mix of disguise and honesty.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 06:51 PM   #4402
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Old May 1st, 2014, 06:53 PM   #4403
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What is the location of this block? Where is it in city center?
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Old May 1st, 2014, 09:58 PM   #4404
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Actually, they don't. After all there is next to nothing old left to mix it with. All you see around Neumarkt square is in fact modern. The only difference between buildings is that some got a fake Baroque fašade while others are allowed to reveal their true age. So it is more like a mix of disguise and honesty.
We all know that. But it is a horrible mix of styles.
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Old May 1st, 2014, 10:14 PM   #4405
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Archńologische Grabungen Neumarkt Dresden Quartier VI - Stand 21.04.14



























http://www.dresdner-bauten.com/
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Old May 2nd, 2014, 06:55 PM   #4406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Actually, they don't. After all there is next to nothing old left to mix it with. All you see around Neumarkt square is in fact modern. The only difference between buildings is that some got a fake Baroque fašade while others are allowed to reveal their true age. So it is more like a mix of disguise and honesty.
It's not too much of a leap from your post to the presumption that you think the whole project is a joke. Is this true?
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Old May 5th, 2014, 01:43 AM   #4407
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One Man's Opinion

I respect the right of everyone to have their own opinion. However, when you are rebuilding on a historic site, making it look like it looked before a war or natural disaster makes a lot more sense to me than going in there with modernistic structures that clash with the historic buildings that have survived. That big Communist era building that sits there on Wilsdrufer Strasse is a good example of something totally out of place with the site.

For example: I love visiting Williamsburg here in America. Sure, much of it was actually reconstructed in the 1930s, but so what. Does that mean that Frank Lloyd Wright should have been been given a commission by John D. Rockefeller, Jr. to build something "modern" rather than restore buildings that were there in the 1770s. I am grateful that was not the case.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 04:06 AM   #4408
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I think Dresden reconstruction looks great. If I have one thing to nitpick I'd say it looks like they're putting too many windows up on the sloped roofs. It looks a tad cluttered.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 04:52 AM   #4409
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Sorry to say, but ...

D'OH!!!





Originally posted by Kampflamm
I know it's never a good idea to pick at the scab as it were, but what the hell.

Have any pictures of the prewar buildings at this location been posted?
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Old May 7th, 2014, 06:15 AM   #4410
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Horrific.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 08:25 AM   #4411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexx02 View Post
I think it's incredible that they are rebuilding it, but isn't there something artificial about it.
I understand what you are saying, but that artificiality is probably unavoidable.
It may diminish with time.

I wish I could see Dresden once again.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 08:52 AM   #4412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Whalen 7 View Post
... when you are rebuilding on a historic site, making it look like it looked before a war or natural disaster makes a lot more sense to me than going in there with modernistic structures that clash with the historic buildings that have survived. That big Communist era building that sits there on Wilsdrufer Strasse is a good example of something totally out of place with the site.
Cities are layered and heterogeneous, and a communist-era building may have as much or even more claim for preservation than an older one, depending on the circumstances.

There's a socialist public building about halfway between the railroad station and the river, I believe on Prager Strasse.

(I've since learned that it's the Kulturpalast, and has been discussed here extensively).

It's a low, wide, modernist building of mediocre design, but it has a monumental heroic socialist-realist tile mural on the front. This mural is a wonderful period piece, and, along with the building, represents a significant (although not entirely happy) era in the city's history. Losing it would be very unfortunate. Cleaning/restoring this dingy mural would be as important as the architectural restoration/replication of the older buildings, and wouldn't cost much.

In any case, Dresden is one of the most architecturally significant cities in the world, and it's great to see the unnecessary US-inflicted wartime damage being so conscientiously repaired.

Last edited by RaymondHood; May 7th, 2014 at 09:23 AM. Reason: expand and correct content
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Old May 7th, 2014, 05:19 PM   #4413
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Cities are layered and heterogeneous, and a communist-era building may have as much or even more claim for preservation than an older one, depending on the circumstances.

There's a socialist public building about halfway between the railroad station and the river, I believe on Prager Strasse.

(I've since learned that it's the Kulturpalast, and has been discussed here extensively).

It's a low, wide, modernist building of mediocre design, but it has a monumental heroic socialist-realist tile mural on the front. This mural is a wonderful period piece, and, along with the building, represents a significant (although not entirely happy) era in the city's history. Losing it would be very unfortunate. Cleaning/restoring this dingy mural would be as important as the architectural restoration/replication of the older buildings, and wouldn't cost much.

In any case, Dresden is one of the most architecturally significant cities in the world, and it's great to see the unnecessary US-inflicted wartime damage being so conscientiously repaired.
There were/are many period pieces from the 1930s and wartime that have not been honored as architectural items of value because of their negative historic roots. I personally feel the same way about the semi interesting and somewhat historic art/architecture of the kulturpalast. Why respect a brutal, ruthless, and criminal regime with a front-and-center memorial? To me, it's morally wrong, not just architecturally offensive. Its mural and history belongs in a museum, and the building elimnated. Neither should be a main street icon.

By the by, the last sentence of the quoted post left out "Britain". It was Churchill and Harris who masterminded the crime in which the US willingly participated. Just to clarify. Cheers!
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Old May 7th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #4414
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Quote:
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There were/are many period pieces from the 1930s and wartime that have not been honored as architectural items of value because of their negative historic roots.
Value of buildings should be never assessed on the value of politic systems, which then existed. It reminds of some Bolsheviks, who wanted to dismantle rail tracks, because they were assembled under wrong regime

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By the by, the last sentence of the quoted post left out "Britain". It was Churchill and Harris who masterminded the crime in which the US willingly participated. Just to clarify. Cheers!
Just to clarify, bombing of Dresden, however gruesome, was hardly a war crime.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 06:52 PM   #4415
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Just to clarify, bombing of Dresden, however gruesome, was hardly a war crime.
Hmm. I don't want to derail this, nor enable Trollism, but it seems that deliberately attacking the residential areas of a city, with the intent of creating a firestorm, thus ensuring maximum civilian casualties has got to be some sort of crime. In this, the Dresden raids weren't exceptional–just exceptionally successful. The whole of Britain's bombing policy (hit the tindery, easy-to-hit bits, under the cover of darkness) is suspect. If American policy escapes this charge in Europe, it was earned in Japan, with much the same approach there as Harris used in Germany.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 07:43 PM   #4416
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city's are much more exciting and richer when we preserve their historic diversity, but this doesn't mean everything must be preserved but really the best exemplars. however it all has to fit together, this is the compositional aspect of urban design. the problem with some modernism is the building in the park predilection that doesn't literally square with centuries of traditional urban morphology (except palaces and castle complexes). I think Dresden is doing a great job rebuilding what is valuable and infilling with more "neutral" buildings, but some of the dormer windows are a little overwhelming and call attention to themselves. I think they need to get rid of the kulturpalast, return the centuries old street pattern while preserving valuable elements of this edifice.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 08:05 PM   #4417
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Hmm.
Eeeeh, I really didn't want to open legal offtopic, but if keepthepast's flame "Churchill bad, Harris worse" is allowed, I hope my short remark will also go unpunished

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I don't want to derail this, nor enable Trollism, but it seems that deliberately attacking the residential areas of a city, with the intent of creating a firestorm, thus ensuring maximum civilian casualties has got to be some sort of crime.
Perhaps it seems so, but it actually never crossed the line.

The greatest problem regarding aerial bombardments is that in 1939-45 there was no convention regarding what can and what cannot be bombed legally. Ironically, the best developed jurisprudence was in Germany, since German legal scholars anticipated in late 1930s, that oncoming war will cause great casualties inflicted by the bombers. But no convention was ever signed, so discussion remained academical.

What then? The only possible way of conduct is to use analogies, which is already problematic. But there's no other way. Here is the passage from the Bible of the Law in the War, i.e. Hague Convention from 1907:
(source: https://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1907c.htm)

SECTION II

HOSTILITIES

CHAPTER I

Means of injuring the enemy, sieges, and bombardments

Art. 22. The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.

Art. 23. In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden

(a) To employ poison or poisoned weapons;

(b) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

(c) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;

(d) To declare that no quarter will be given;

(e) To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;

(f) To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;

(g) To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;

(h) To declare abolished, suspended, or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party.

A belligerent is likewise forbidden to compel the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war.

Art. 24. Ruses of war and the employment of measures necessary for obtaining information about the enemy and the country are considered permissible.

Art. 25. The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.

Art. 26. The officer in command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in cases of assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities.

Art. 27. In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes. It is the duty of the besieged to indicate the presence of such buildings or places by distinctive and visible signs, which shall be notified to the enemy beforehand.


Art. 28. The pillage of a town or place, even when taken by assault, is prohibited.

--------------------------

Now, let's comment. It is clearly stated that attacking civilians on purpose is prohibited. If target distinction is possible, then firing on civilian / wounded / harmless combatant (for example fighter pilot shot down and attempting rescue by the parachute) is prohibited. Strifing the column of refugees is prohibited. Bombardment of civilian house, civilian district, civilian city is prohibited.

That's easy. But that's academical.

Now we are moving to much worse situation, extremely common during the war: we have supreme fire power and relatively primitive means of aiming. So either we don't have possibility to distinct targets or we do have possibility, but the technical data of weapons make it impossible to kill the soldier while not harming the civilian.

In the WWII one of the most commonly used tactics was mass bombardment. It refers to heavy land artillery, medium and heavy bombers, heavy naval artillery, today it would be also A-bomb. These are means of destruction, which cause harm within the range of hundreds of metres, sometimes even kilometres. It's impossible to find a spot, where only soldiers are or only military huts are. It is impossible to aim better. I would like to remind that bomb dispertion during typical carpet bombing can exceed 10-15 kilometres. How is it possible to destroy military and strategic targets (barracks, factories, railway stations) without affecting places of cultural value, priceless historical ensembles, residential districts?

It is impossible, that's the point. Art 27 says all this humanitarian stuff, but the ominous "as far as possible" clause also appears. I.e. if it's possible to destroy Dresden's military factories (with over 100 thousand workers), all buildings of Wehrkreis IV, railway station, paralyse AA-guns and RDF operators without inflicting heavy damage to dwellings of people and places of cultural value? I doubt.

Is there any better idea to inflict heavy casualties without creating firestorm with it's terrible consequences? I doubt.

The Convention states clearly: if the city is unprotected, it cannot be attacked. Which means on the other hand: if the city is protected, it can be attacked, with full acceptance that the collateral damage will happen. And all possible means had to be done in order to reduce this collateral damage.

I.e., in WWII bombers - none. Because there is no way to reduce damage inflicted without increasing the risk of attacking forces to unacceptable level (i.e. flying at low level and attack during the day).

And of course every European city size of Dresden was in some way protected. There was at least several AA-guns, machine guns, plenty of soldiers in the streets. Certainly, it was not enough to save the city, but it was more than enough to claim that the city was a legal target. And once it became legal target it meant that it will be ruthlessly bombed.

Not very nice, I agree, war generally is not very nice. But is it direct and obvious breach of the Hague Convention? Hardly.

Ad. art. 26: if the bombardment starts, the civilians should be informed, so they could flee. Very nice. And very practical, if carpet artillery bombardment lasting 2 days will be done. We attack in 3 days, the HQ computed: 48 hours of artillery preparation is needed, we can be humanitarian and inform the people 24 hours beforehand. Like in 1917 in West front.

Now imagine carpet aerial bombing. It is not "preparation", it is attack itself. Any plane over Berlin/Dresden/Hamburg is at risk of being shot down. The AA will be shooting upon the planes. The advantage of surprise is one of the means to reduce casualties among attacking bombers. How do you imagine to inform civilians beforehand? And even if, how long would they got? 10 minutes?

Later, during last months of the war in Pacific, Americans used to throw leaflets above Japanese cities which were to bombed next day (not in all cases, though). But it was July 1945, Japanese air forces were grounded by lack of fuel, and Japanese AA couldn't reach Superfortresses. So it was possible to be humanitarian without increasing the risk of attacking forces.

Above Germany there wasn't such luxurious conditions. Therefore exception mentioned in art. 26 "except in cases of assault".

So, to sum up. Was Dresden plundered and pillaged? No (well, at least not in February air raid, Red Army behaviour is the other story)

Was Dresden undefended city? Obviously not. It was defended, there were military targets and infrastructure.

Was it possible to warn citizens of Dresden beforehand? No.

Was it possible to make a distinction of targets? No (more precisely: yes, it was possible to make a distinction on the map, what is what, but the bomb dispertion was too large to make a difference).

Of course, I agree with you that "intent of creating a firestorm" was the guarantee, that the loss of life will be enormous. Probably planners of the operation were not particularly unhappy with the hell they inflict on the city. And although it was impossible to radically decrease the rate of casualties, I have to admit that reducing pain of Germans wasn't particularly high on RAF's list of priorities But still, this is not a crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
In this, the Dresden raids weren't exceptional–just exceptionally successful.
Precisely. During the war the practice of bombing the cities was used from the very beginning (no point reminding who started the war, eh?) with great success. And apart from some very obvious (and very rare) actions against cities which were completely unarmed, most of the actions are not perceived as criminal per se.

That's probably the greatest wisdom of Nurnberg Trials: let hang those who started the war, because, once started it quickly turns into bloody mincer, where everybody commits deeds, which would be unimaginable during peace.

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Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
The whole of Britain's bombing policy (hit the tindery, easy-to-hit bits, under the cover of darkness) is suspect.
What do you propose then? Hit hard-to-hit targets, without the cover? RAF Bomber Command tried in 1939-40 season, but after it got 1/3 of Blenheims or Wellingtons shot in some daily attacks, it reasonably reconsidered tactics Better late than never.

Man, it was about winning the war

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Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
If American policy escapes this charge in Europe, it was earned in Japan, with much the same approach there as Harris used in Germany.
Also went quite well, didn't it?
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Old May 7th, 2014, 08:14 PM   #4418
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Oh please...

How I wish I'd still be moderating this forum sometimes.
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Old May 7th, 2014, 10:11 PM   #4419
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Neumarkt Dresden - Sanierung Kulturpalast Stand Ende April 2014















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人は何かの犠牲なしに何も得ることはできない。何かを得るためには同等の代価が必要になる。それが、生活における等価交換の原則だ。その頃僕らは、それが世界の真実だと信じていた。時間は、最も貴重な資源である。だから、誰の時間もあなたは無駄にしてはいけないし、誰もが他の人の時間を無駄にしないでください。

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Old May 8th, 2014, 01:49 AM   #4420
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Eeeeh, I really didn't want to open legal offtopic, but if keepthepast's flame "Churchill bad, Harris worse" is allowed, I hope my short remark will also go unpunished
Perhaps the reason mruczek has such trouble communicating is that the quote he attributes to me never existed. One cannot make things up and also make sense.
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