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Old May 8th, 2014, 04:32 AM   #4421
RaymondHood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Why respect a brutal, ruthless, and criminal regime with a front-and-center memorial? To me, it's morally wrong, not just architecturally offensive. Its mural and history belongs in a museum, and the building elimnated. Neither should be a main street icon.

By the by, the last sentence of the quoted post left out "Britain". It was Churchill and Harris who masterminded the crime in which the US willingly participated. Just to clarify. Cheers!
It's certainly not a memorial. There's a big difference between actively creating a new building to commemorate something, and simply allowing a building's continued existence. I wouldn't like to see the Russians blow up Stalin's subway or his Seven Sisters because of his undeniable barbarity as a ruler.

Seventy years ago, we were very happy to let the "brutal, ruthless, and criminal regime" bear the brunt of the Allies' European war work for several years, and lose 20 million of its citizens in the process.

Thanks for the clarification of Churchill's leading role in the obliteration of central Dresden. Why did he do that? Did he think it would hasten victory? This barbaric act makes his famous quote about shaping buildings ironic, to say the least.
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Old May 8th, 2014, 05:37 PM   #4422
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Originally Posted by RaymondHood View Post
It's certainly not a memorial. There's a big difference between actively creating a new building to commemorate something, and simply allowing a building's continued existence. I wouldn't like to see the Russians blow up Stalin's subway or his Seven Sisters because of his undeniable barbarity as a ruler.

Seventy years ago, we were very happy to let the "brutal, ruthless, and criminal regime" bear the brunt of the Allies' European war work for several years, and lose 20 million of its citizens in the process.

Thanks for the clarification of Churchill's leading role in the obliteration of central Dresden. Why did he do that? Did he think it would hasten victory? This barbaric act makes his famous quote about shaping buildings ironic, to say the least.
You're right, it's not a true memorial, but the spirit with which you suggested it be maintained seemed to support memorializing the communist era and the images and architecture that went with it. It's that keepsake idea which I and some others feel is museum material, not a focal point of the Neumarkt, especially given its incongruous appearance. And, the city is not just allowing it to continue, they're actively refurbishing to essentially re-establish the eyesore for another 50-100 years. Unlike the Moscow subway and seven sisters which seem to blend with their environments, the kulturpalast is, as SonOfThomp suggested earlier, is like an anchovy in beer...totally misplaced.

Regarding 'why?' Churchill moved on Dresden, there are few current historians and military analysts who support the necessity of the action, much less the severity. By mid February 1945, the Battle of the Bulge was won by the Allies, and from all directions the Allies were routing the Wehrmacht (the Luftwaffe and navy were already done for). Dresden was the only major German city to have not been bombed to ruin (Pforzheim hit a week later actually), so it was a last target for the bomber-mad crowd to destroy. It's function as a war machine city was really not in play, even though this was used as by some to justify the attacks. Vengeance, the scorched earth strategy, leave nothing behind, kill more of the enemy and further destroy the morale of those not killed--those were the main reasons.
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Old May 8th, 2014, 05:38 PM   #4423
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Excellent pictures, well done Germany for carrying out this transformation! May this model be adopted in other parts of Dresden and the rest of Germany!

I might have missed it, but in the Neumarkt what is going to happen in the area of the excavation? Also, according to wikipedia "Quarter I and the front section of Quarters II, III, IV and V(II) have since been completed, with Quarter VIII currently under construction." Roughly what % of the reconstruction is yet to happen? Sorry if this has been mentioned.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 04:57 AM   #4424
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Oh please...

How I wish I'd still be moderating this forum sometimes.
Seriously. Let someone post a similar treatise on a Polish page.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 11:56 AM   #4425
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The mural "the march of the red flag"(or similar) is not a memorial to the socialist regime, but to the idea of socialism. -> It can stay. Socialism is not bad per se, the problem is that people aren't good enough for it to work. The same goes for laissez-faire capitalism that could actually benefit society (trickle down effect) if everybody were acting morally correct.
But back on topic: I kind of like some of the contemporary buildings. Of course they are only fill-in projects, but they blend in with their surroundings. Not every urinal has to be reconstructed.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #4426
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Oh please...

How I wish I'd still be moderating this forum sometimes.

Sorry. Mea culpa.
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Old May 9th, 2014, 08:05 PM   #4427
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Sorry to be 100% off topic, but amongst friends, why are so many of the daily landing page banner ratings being closed prematurely?
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Old May 11th, 2014, 03:34 PM   #4428
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Old May 11th, 2014, 03:48 PM   #4429
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They should keep the mural and demolish the rest of the Kulturballast.
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Old May 11th, 2014, 04:44 PM   #4430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarian urbanist View Post
They should keep the mural and demolish the rest of the Kulturballast.
Agree. Berlin demolished the Volkskammer.
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Old May 11th, 2014, 05:13 PM   #4431
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Well, one good thing is when they build the last block (Quatier VI) on the area that is now being excavated, one will not see the Kulturpalast from the Neumarkt anymore


Source:neumarkt-dresden.de
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Old May 11th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #4432
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Hmm. I don't want to derail this, nor enable Trollism, but it seems that deliberately attacking the residential areas of a city, with the intent of creating a firestorm, thus ensuring maximum civilian casualties has got to be some sort of crime. In this, the Dresden raids weren't exceptional–just exceptionally successful. The whole of Britain's bombing policy (hit the tindery, easy-to-hit bits, under the cover of darkness) is suspect. If American policy escapes this charge in Europe, it was earned in Japan, with much the same approach there as Harris used in Germany.
I don't want to get into the debate since I know very little about factory placements in Dresden, but I just wanted to add that firestorms are very effective against heavy machinery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Why respect a brutal, ruthless, and criminal regime with a front-and-center memorial?
Well, much of the architecture we admire today was created by regimes which can not be described as democratic or humanistic. But I don't think that the policies of the regime should be a basis for what should be preserved or not. The Kulturpalast is just downright foul and aesthetically horrible, and that should be enough to tear it down.
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Old May 12th, 2014, 06:30 AM   #4433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolg View Post
The Kulturpalast is just downright foul and aesthetically horrible, and that should be enough to tear it down.
Judge for yourselves:
http://brandinside.de/link.php?q=Kon...-dresden.de%2F

A bit unadventurous, yes.
But far from "downright foul and aesthetically horrible." It's a clean, understated, self-effacing, and perfectly respectable design.
There's a big difference between the two.
The caption on the photo seems to be saying goodbye to the building. Can any German speaker here provide a translation?


PS -- has anyone been inside and attended a performance?
If so, how was it? -- I suspect that the acoustics are not very good for music, unless therte's a very sophisticated sound enhancement system in place. (The auditorium is too wide.)

Otherwise, it looks like a reasonably pleasant environment inside:
http://www.das-neue-dresden.de/image...-saal-2008.jpg

And it looks as though a renovation has been proposed, or may even be underway:
http://quo-vadis-dresden.de/wp-conte...lturpalast.jpg

Finally, here's the mural:
http://03varvara.wordpress.com/2013/...rpalast-mural/

Last edited by RaymondHood; May 12th, 2014 at 07:23 AM.
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Old May 12th, 2014, 12:58 PM   #4434
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Here comes the translation:
Au Revoir
The Kulturpalast is closed, the renovation/transformation will start soon. It's time for the KKG to say Good bye.
We thank all friends of culture for unforgettable moments, for thrilled applause, for the joy in people's faces, for a common journey.
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Old May 12th, 2014, 05:13 PM   #4435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondHood View Post
Judge for yourselves:
http://brandinside.de/link.php?q=Kon...-dresden.de%2F

A bit unadventurous, yes.
But far from "downright foul and aesthetically horrible." It's a clean, understated, self-effacing, and perfectly respectable design.
There's a big difference between the two.
The caption on the photo seems to be saying goodbye to the building. Can any German speaker here provide a translation?


PS -- has anyone been inside and attended a performance?
If so, how was it? -- I suspect that the acoustics are not very good for music, unless therte's a very sophisticated sound enhancement system in place. (The auditorium is too wide.)

Otherwise, it looks like a reasonably pleasant environment inside:
http://www.das-neue-dresden.de/image...-saal-2008.jpg

And it looks as though a renovation has been proposed, or may even be underway:
http://quo-vadis-dresden.de/wp-conte...lturpalast.jpg

Finally, here's the mural:
http://03varvara.wordpress.com/2013/...rpalast-mural/
I've attended two performances in the Kulturpalast, one conducted by Kurt Masur. The conductor was the main attraction; acoustics secondary, but Beethoven sounded great. The auditorium seemed perfectly adequate and comfortable with no unique or interesting aspects whatsoever. Nothing at all like the Semper Oper a block away.

I agree in a setting of other 60s/70s style structures or by itself somewhere, the building could appear subtle or self effacing. But the problem people have is the location as has been stated numerous times....in the Neumarkt and facing the Altmarkt it's about as subtle as a chip of granite in Queen Elizabeth's diamond tiara.
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Old May 12th, 2014, 10:06 PM   #4436
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But the problem people have is the location as has been stated numerous times....in the Neumarkt and facing the Altmarkt it's about as subtle as a chip of granite in Queen Elizabeth's diamond tiara.[/QUOTE]

Ok, again. It WON'T be visible from the Neumarkt, as soon as the reconstruction of Quartier VI will be completed, as stated many times now.

As for the Altmarkt, I mean, guys, have you ever taken a look at the Altmarkt? There is nothing historical over there (yes, apart from the Kreuzkirche in the distance, tucked away in a corner), all you see is from the Comunist era, including the only esthetically valid buildings, that is the ones that are on each side of the square. Kulturpalast is fully part of the area because was conceived and built in the same period. I am more outraged by the horrible, bland, modernistic buildings (one is the NH Hotel!) that conclude the square opposite the Kulturpalast. And I am always surprised that no one ever said anything about them instead of talking about Kulturpalast!
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Old May 12th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #4437
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As for the Altmarkt, I mean, guys, have you ever taken a look at the Altmarkt? There is nothing historical over there (yes, apart from the Kreuzkirche in the distance, tucked away in a corner), all you see is from the Comunist era, including the only esthetically valid buildings, that is the ones that are on each side of the square. Kulturpalast is fully part of the area because was conceived and built in the same period. I am more outraged by the horrible, bland, modernistic buildings (one is the NH Hotel!) that conclude the square opposite the Kulturpalast. And I am always surprised that no one ever said anything about them instead of talking about Kulturpalast!
Well, to some degree, NH hotel fits into Altmarkt (dimensions and so on).

Although reconstructions would certainly fit better. I have a painting of Canaletto of Altmarkt, c.a. 1770, in my bedroom and I really like the view (Kreuzkirche and the place, where today's NH stands).
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Old May 13th, 2014, 12:02 AM   #4438
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Kreuzkirche Needs Cleaning

The Kreuzkirche is one of those buildings that would benefit from a good cleaning or sandblasting. The exterior iis virtually black from grime and what ever the war added. Let's face it, a lot of the "aging" is actually grime from the burning of soft coal and other fuels before those practices ceased. I for one would like to see what the architect intended it to look like and not what it has become.
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Old May 13th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #4439
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That's not quite the case with Elbe sandstone though. It has the tendency to turn dark just from being exposed to oxygen. You can clean it all you want, it'll turn black in a matter of a decade or smth.
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Old May 13th, 2014, 12:40 AM   #4440
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The Kreuzkirche is one of those buildings that would benefit from a good cleaning or sandblasting. The exterior iis virtually black from grime and what ever the war added. Let's face it, a lot of the "aging" is actually grime from the burning of soft coal and other fuels before those practices ceased. I for one would like to see what the architect intended it to look like and not what it has become.
I have a different opinion on that.
I think the city of Dresden really benefits from some patina on its oldest buildings, as it helps sort out the reconstructions from the old buildings that survived the war. Was it in another city I'd totally support its removal, but Dresden's situation is different.

When the reconstructed buildings will develop their own patina, the city will have to decide what to do. But the patina isn't necessarily bad, as it gives a sense of authenticity to buildings that really need it!
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