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Old October 22nd, 2014, 08:47 AM   #4641
RaymondHood
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Originally Posted by TimothyR View Post
We live in the first nihilist, materialist age in world history. It cannot produce anything beautiful or profound ...
Or could it be that the inability to see whatever contemporary beauty or profundity exists, lies in the eye of the beholder?
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 05:05 PM   #4642
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Or could it be that the inability to see whatever contemporary beauty or profundity exists, lies in the eye of the beholder?
I agree.
It's really just a lack of knowing what style is appropriate in a given setting. A replica of the Dinglingerhaus dropped onto Prager-Strasse wouldn't be any more harmonious than the modernist moquettes inserted here and there in the Neumarkt.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 05:11 PM   #4643
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The "new" mayor tried to stop the project (around 2005) The people elected him and his crew, because he can handle money very good. After the voters where outraged by his plans, he become very smart and cheeky:
He put a design and planing commission in power just for the Neumarkt.
Several Associations reacted stunned: The city wasted money to put a group in place that was doing the very same as them and they were working for free! The planning commission`s plans call almost every 6 months for outraged citizens. The mayor claims having nothing to do with it.
When is the next election?
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 08:19 PM   #4644
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Or could it be that the inability to see whatever contemporary beauty or profundity exists, lies in the eye of the beholder?
What do you mean?
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Old October 26th, 2014, 12:41 PM   #4645
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Or could it be that the inability to see whatever contemporary beauty or profundity exists, lies in the eye of the beholder?
Nah.

Saying that beauty is entirely subjective is rubbish.

This:



Looks better than this:



That can hardly be debated.

Similarly this:
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Old October 26th, 2014, 12:43 PM   #4646
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^



looks objectively better than:

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Old October 26th, 2014, 11:02 PM   #4647
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^



looks objectively better than:

Precisely.
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Old October 26th, 2014, 11:03 PM   #4648
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Originally Posted by sdg198 View Post
Nah.

Saying that beauty is entirely subjective is rubbish.

This:



Looks better than this:



That can hardly be debated.

Similarly this:
Spot on.
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Old October 27th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #4649
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While I wholeheartedly agree with your comparison, I must disagree that beauty is a standard that can be arrived at by objective reasoning.

Some people might look at the Schloß and see kitschy, Neo-Renaissance artifice, typical of the late 19th century, which is when it was remodeled to look as it does today. (To be perfectly clear, I do not see it that way).
AND
they might see, in the Kulturpalast, a clean, functional structure devoid of historicist frou-frou. (Again, I see it as a mess).

That is why I try to contextualize my often acerbic commentary on modernism as being, "modernism IN THE CONTEXT OF NEUMARKT". If the Kulturpalast was somewhere in Johannstadt, or south on Prager-Straße, no problem. I still don't like it, but it is at least in context and harmony with its surroundings. Where it is now, it's the punchline to a crude joke, delivered just as the music stops, blurted out loud enough for none to miss, and for all to cringe.
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Old October 27th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #4650
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God damn modernist bullshit ****! They need to take that shit somewhere else. What in the hell are they freaking thinking? They have turned to shit with modern crap what could have been one of the greatest modern restoration projects since Warsaws Old Town was restored in the 50s.
Agree. I give the Gdansk and Warsaws top grades whereas Dresden becomes more like 7/10 with lots of moderns cr.. WHY don't they leave out the moden buildings a least 300 meters from Neumarkt. At least Judenhof seems pretty
But even in the two cities mentioned before they now build modern buildings - but luckily a bit away from the "old" ones.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 12:12 AM   #4651
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I am arguing that beauty is a mixture of objectivity and subjectivity.
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Originally Posted by SonOfThomp View Post
they might see, in the Kulturpalast, a clean, functional structure devoid of historicist frou-frou. (Again, I see it as a mess).
Sure, it is clean, functional, efficient etc.

But it is not beautiful. It is ugly. And that's what I'm talking about.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 11:36 AM   #4652
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^



looks objectively better than:

It's an incorrect comparison.
The second art object is not about looks. It wasn't meant to be beautiful.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 11:58 AM   #4653
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I am arguing that beauty is a mixture of objectivity and subjectivity.
I'd say beauty is only objective if one means by objectivity predominance of the same subjective opinions. So if you make a sociological survey and find out that 90% of respondents consider something beautiful than you may conclude that it is beautiful objectively - in the specific sociological sense. But still it's not objectivity in the common sense.
Objectivity implies measurability or at least ability to prove your point of view. And it's not a proof like "Look yourself, can't you see?". There are no ways to do it. Once people considered symmetry to be prerequsite for beauty, later they learned to appreciate the beauty of asymmetry. And so on.
And, by the way, I find Kulturpalast ugly too. But I don't believe that its uglyness is an objective fact.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 12:24 PM   #4654
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Saying that beauty is entirely subjective is rubbish.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 10:04 PM   #4655
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Landhausstraße/Frießeneck/Q IV/3















http://www.bausituation-dresden.de/s...max-results=20
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Ο κάθε λαός έχει το κράτος και την κυβέρνηση που του αξίζει. Καθρέφτης λαού, ἄστη αυτού.

如果希腊国民继续信阴谋论,外资救世主的,不为自己的行为负责, 他们会灭亡。

人は何かの犠牲なしに何も得ることはできない。何かを得るためには同等の代価が必要になる。それが、生活における等価交換の原則だ。その頃僕らは、それが世界の真実だと信じていた。時間は、最も貴重な資源である。だから、誰の時間もあなたは無駄にしてはいけないし、誰もが他の人の時間を無駄にしないでください。
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Old October 29th, 2014, 10:05 PM   #4656
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Q VII/2

















http://www.bausituation-dresden.de/s...max-results=20
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Ο κάθε λαός έχει το κράτος και την κυβέρνηση που του αξίζει. Καθρέφτης λαού, ἄστη αυτού.

如果希腊国民继续信阴谋论,外资救世主的,不为自己的行为负责, 他们会灭亡。

人は何かの犠牲なしに何も得ることはできない。何かを得るためには同等の代価が必要になる。それが、生活における等価交換の原則だ。その頃僕らは、それが世界の真実だと信じていた。時間は、最も貴重な資源である。だから、誰の時間もあなたは無駄にしてはいけないし、誰もが他の人の時間を無駄にしないでください。
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Old October 30th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #4657
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I am arguing that beauty is a mixture of objectivity and subjectivity.

Sure, it is clean, functional, efficient etc.

But it is not beautiful. It is ugly. And that's what I'm talking about.
Actually, that`s funny: That thing was`t clean. It had asbestos on mass.
That thing was`t functional. Actors and staff complained
That thing was`t efficient. Flat roof, glass wrap is not.

That was not Your point, I know. Just think it`s funny! But that`s how they see it.
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Old October 30th, 2014, 01:58 AM   #4658
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Agree. I give the Gdansk and Warsaws top grades whereas Dresden becomes more like 7/10 with lots of moderns cr.. WHY don't they leave out the moden buildings a least 300 meters from Neumarkt. At least Judenhof seems pretty
But even in the two cities mentioned before they now build modern buildings - but luckily a bit away from the "old" ones.


That`s what I tried to explain: The city's Design Committee is fighting against it!
The major who put modernists in there claims nothing to do with that committee. His voters, among many jung people tried to put him to reason.


I don`t like it, but I have to tell an interesting true story.
One example: The pavement on one street. The city asked the people about the type of pavement. Answer: Cobblestones, please. So the city design committee, containing open anti-reconstruction members putting a tender out for asphalt. 15!! different groups, and business people complained, including investors. Neumarkt association also complained about it. So the design committee changed the plan and put a few cobblestones in "here" and "there" on the update with asphalt in between.
That was followed by the next outcry! So the design committee tried to keep construction a secret!! Next outcry! So the committee ordered the stupid cobblestones but put the project on halt, the excuse: No money, therefore asphalt or no street for another couple of years!! Now the tenants got pissed with the city and where able to proof the city wrong. They found for-sudden the money! Can you believe it? They found the money. Wish I would find some at home. By that time friends of Dresden in New York criticized the city. The design committee should be eliminated they said. This pissed the committee off to no end. So the next excuse: The mine can not deliver the Cobblestones on time and therefore the street need to be paved with asphalt. The end. That pissed of politicians of the state of Saxon and other party's. So the major of neighbor town of Plauen came forward and offered "Plauens" Cobblestones. They had some construction on delay. The idea was to get Dresden`s cobblestones delivered to Plauen on a later date. the Committee did`t took that well. Next excuse: We have no means of transportation!
Now the mine`s owner got pissed and accused the city of saying the untruth! No problem to deliver any amount of stones! The next group that complained was the Contractor and Builders Association. The city of Dresden would benefit with jobs if they would build traditional. Modern staff can be easily imported!! The same time different hotel groups reminded Dresden about the reason for the tourists. Some voices came from Switzerland and Italy, where many helpers of the Neumarket life.
So the cobblestones where delivered as a donation from a friendly trucker.
That pissed the Committee off again!! So they hired a contractor to pave the road and told him the exact way the bricks should be put down.
the next drama unfolded when the bricklayer complained about the pattern.
The problem: With the pattern the committee demanded and they where very demanding, women with high heels and delivery trolleys as well as other people would have problems. The city insisted to put it that way!?! By this time the alarm bells where ringing everywhere. Many people expected the Committee to pull something of like this! That "Committee" then blackmailed the contractor not to change anything if he likes to keep the job. While some people tried to call all bricklayers to stand united, the Catholic and Protestant churches in cooperation with the job training collage organized a deal with the contractor: He will work as slow as any possible while bricklaying students and bricklayers in private will pave in front of the Frauen church. As fast as possible!
Later the city was criticized by national organisations and reminded what it means to be democratic: Be there for every opinion and citizen. Not just those, who voted for you!

First, i was`t sure about telling that story. But I think that was interesting, to say at least! We need international support! We do.

BTW Some investors made the same experience and planning to file a massive lawsuit! While others like Guenter Blobel, from New York and founder of friends of Dresden like to wait until next elections have passed.
Imagine that: there are investors with plots of land waiting for better times !?!?
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Old October 30th, 2014, 02:04 AM   #4659
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[QUOTE=cinxxx;116927691]Last ones...


Dresden - Neumarkt by cinxxx, on Flickr

Dresden - Neumarkt by cinxxx, on Flickr


This is the street with the unwanted "Cobblestones"
Actually, it`s a wonder the Neumarket is coming back again!
That`s because the international support of You guys!
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Old October 31st, 2014, 12:40 AM   #4660
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A shame they build modern architecture in Landhausstrasse Should have been like Judenhof
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